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Phrontist
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Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits 1
#26792330 - 06/29/20 02:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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A recent conversation about pins having a higher concentration of active ingredients compared to mature fruits got me thinking. In a hypothetical situation where one is cultivating totally for personal use, and they are growing at a rate far exceeding their consumption rate, could it make sense to harvest pins rather than letting them mature?
I’m going to just throw out some numbers that are for illustrative purposes only, call it a possible hypothesis. Let’s say a single mature fruit is 10 grams and contains 100% of its potential actives. That same fruit is 1 gram at pin stage and contains 50% of its potential actives. This would mean that 2 grams of pins contain the same amount of actives as 10 grams of mature fruit.
Again, none of those numbers represent actual values, but if those basic principles apply, it could be something interesting to explore. Many people who are averse to the taste could see the benefit of needing to consume less material in order to achieve the same result. Reducing storage footprint could be a boon for many as well, both from a logistics and a liability standpoint.
I’m going to be doing research and experimentation on the subject, and I’m extremely interested in experiences, ideas, and links to any related information y’all may have.
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: Phrontist]
#26792445 - 06/29/20 03:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Go for it! Would make a great experiment! Just remember you wont get any prints (obviously) so make sure you have some back-up culture slants, colonized petri dishes and/or spore prints before attempting.
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LadysKnight
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: LogicaL Chaos] 1
#26792561 - 06/29/20 04:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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A few months ago I was plagued with a spore print with a sneaky clear mold that wreaked havok on my grows. Many tubs aborted as inch long pins. I harvested and dried them anyway. They are powerful. I didn't weigh the doses, so no empirical data but I would guess .25g of them was equal to about 2.5g of regular. Friends and I used some yesterday on a river trip. A 4oz jar held enough for 18 people to have multiple doses.
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Phrontist
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: LadysKnight]
#26792695 - 06/29/20 05:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Haven’t been able to find anything scientific on the subject yet, but there is a metric shit ton of anecdotal reports, assumptions, and guesses. One of the more interesting theories I’ve come across is that, in addition to pins having higher concentration, you also consume more individuals when going that route, which creates less variance.
In other words, if you’re eating 3g and get it from 3 mature fruits, your total active amount is subject to a lot of volatility (e.g. one fruit has .1g, another .5g, the third .7g). If instead you get those 3g from 30 pins, your total active amount should be more stable.
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MH5109
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: Phrontist]
#26792706 - 06/29/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I usually just pick the little ones, during harvest and throw them into the process bag. They don't look good, so people don't like them but they are good for chocolates gummies and tea. Idk about potency but they usually are a little stronger in my experience.
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LadysKnight
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: Phrontist]
#26792802 - 06/29/20 05:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think you make good points. There are a lot of benefits from concentrating the actives. Just guessing while high, but maybe you also could get more/faster flushes from the same tub if they were harvested as pins? Total guess.
But I wonder if growers would ever actually choose to murder a beautiful pinset even if it's advantageous? I would.
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Mycoactive
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: MH5109]
#26792819 - 06/29/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'd like to see studies that suggest that pins have a higher concentration of actives. The recent work I've seen actually suggests that the concentrations are slightly higher in mature fruits than in pins (i.e., more alkaloids per dried gram of biomass). I'm sure it varies by species given that some species produce psilocybin in their mycelium while others don't, but the research I'm referring to was done with Psilocybe cubensis.
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Phrontist
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: MH5109] 1
#26792826 - 06/29/20 06:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
MH5109 said: Idk about potency but they usually are a little stronger in my experience.
With how many people I’ve seen and heard saying the same, I would be surprised if there isn’t some truth to it scientifically. Too many experienced adventurers and natural skeptics for it to all be confirmation bias, IMO.
I’m gonna toss back 20-25g of fresh pins in a bit and see how it feels in a few hours. If there’s nothing to the theory, it should be a very mild experience for me. I usually go with 3.5-4.5g dry for a solid trip with some peak intensity, mild visuals, acute synesthesia especially with feeling tastes. Mostly writing this down now for myself to look back at in a bit and assess.
In case anyone is wondering, it’s been just over three weeks since my last trip. Shouldn’t be a factor in judging efficacy of tonight.
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Phrontist
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: Mycoactive]
#26792835 - 06/29/20 06:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
LadysKnight said: I think you make good points. There are a lot of benefits from concentrating the actives. Just guessing while high, but maybe you also could get more/faster flushes from the same tub if they were harvested as pins? Total guess.
But I wonder if growers would ever actually choose to murder a beautiful pinset even if it's advantageous? I would.
My thinking is that even if you can’t get faster/more from a tub currently, these setups are designed to create mature fruits. How quickly and efficiently could pins be created if that was the goal?
Quote:
Mycoactive said: I'd like to see studies that suggest that pins have a higher concentration of actives. The recent work I've seen actually suggests that the concentrations are slightly higher in mature fruits than in pins (i.e., more alkaloids per dried gram of biomass). I'm sure it varies by species given that some species produce psilocybin in their mycelium while others don't, but the research I'm referring to was done with Psilocybe cubensis.
Do you happen to have a link or any details I could search for to find these studies? Would love to look through them.
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LadysKnight
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: Phrontist]
#26792965 - 06/29/20 07:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phrontist said: I’m gonna toss back 20-25g of fresh pins in a bit and see how it feels in a few hours. If there’s nothing to the theory, it should be a very mild experience for me. I usually go with 3.5-4.5g dry for a solid trip with some peak intensity, mild visuals, acute synesthesia especially with feeling tastes. Mostly writing this down now for myself to look back at in a bit and assess.
In case anyone is wondering, it’s been just over three weeks since my last trip. Shouldn’t be a factor in judging efficacy of tonight.
For comparison purposes, since you usually do around 4g, wouldn't it make more sense to take 4g of the test material?
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MH5109
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: LadysKnight]
#26792990 - 06/29/20 07:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Not if they are wet. Then it would be around 40g wet.
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LadysKnight
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: MH5109]
#26793047 - 06/29/20 07:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh, fresh. True but now that's throwing in another unknown variable, since fresh are stronger than dry.
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Phrontist
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: LadysKnight]
#26793070 - 06/29/20 07:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
LadysKnight said: For comparison purposes, since you usually do around 4g, wouldn't it make more sense to take 4g of the test material?
4g dry is roughly equal to 40g fresh, is the general thinking regarding conversion.
I ate 24.91g fresh a little over 45 minutes ago. Two reasons for this:
1. I’m not looking for anything incredibly intense tonight. On the off chance that 25g of fresh pins is so concentrated that it’s like having double that amount of mature fruits, I’ll still be in a zone I’m comfortable with.
2. I’m working with the hypothesis that 25g of fresh pins will be at least equal to 25g of fresh mature fruits. I have a lot of experience over several decades now with doses ranging from 2g to 12g dry. Certain things just don’t happen for me below 3g, which is why I put my starting point just below that threshold. If those things happen, it would indicate either a significant aberration for me or the presence of more than an equivalent level of alkaloids.
Hope that makes sense. Starting to take off now and my mind is getting a bit wavy!
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LadysKnight
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: Phrontist]
#26793095 - 06/29/20 07:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you wanted to end up with 4g dry, you would dehydrate 40g wet. Ime fresh is 2-3x stronger than dried. So 25g wet could feel like 50g dry. And if pins are 2-10x stronger, that could feel like 100-500g dried. Good luck, let us know!
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Roger Clemency
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: Phrontist]
#26793118 - 06/29/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I was wondering about this a while back because of a quote someone had from RR, but when I went searching he was saying the opposite thing.
So many things just get said over and over with no definitive proof. I want to know damnit. I really want to have a GC/MS device and the knowledge to use it lol to test this stuff out.
I've never thought the caps were stronger than stems, at least not from subjective trips, but I'd like to know for sure. And how much does active % differ in a monoculture or clone. Do cubes stop producing psilly chemicals after a certain point?
Hope your trip does you well
-------------------- Sour grapes, sweet revenge Heaven starts right where hell ends
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: Roger Clemency]
#26794018 - 06/30/20 08:38 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I’ve never eaten them myself yet but I gave a big bag of aborts to some friends and they said it was definitely stronger.
I never thought about it but if it works harvesting pins might be the ultimate way to go. All the energy that usually gets spent growing the big shrooms would be put into flush after flush of pins.
Curious how this went, especially if they’re up to 10x by weight like said earlier.
This is one of those things that’s plausible enough and so many people have reported it that I think it’s probably true.
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LAGM2020     
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limina
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: A.k.a]
#26794296 - 06/30/20 11:02 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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This is my first reply! Finally Im inspired by this cliff hanger! And just harvesting my first bin ever this week and super curious about optimal harvest points.
Please don't leave us wondering too long!
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ReverendMyc

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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: limina]
#26794716 - 06/30/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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-------------------- LAGM 2.024Stoned Gummys tek (Gummies from sclerotia or mushrooms) *Not just for stones any moreHow to succeed in mycology (and life) - know nothing, read everything, try something, and accept advice. Don't Panic   
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CrashTest
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: ReverendMyc]
#26794730 - 06/30/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Definitely curious about how this plays out !!
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this account is automated, any posts related to activities or advice thereof are strictly opinions from numerous online sites and are for informational purposes only - CrashTest2020
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normalperson
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: Phrontist]
#26795026 - 06/30/20 05:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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the pinhead of a mushroom is called a pin because of its size, the same size as the head of a sewing pin. i'm pretty sure y'all aren't talking about fruits so small you need Tweezers to harvest them, so what size/stage are y'all talking about? in my mind, it's at any point before the cap starts pulling away from the stem. they could be anywhere from 1/4 inch to 6+ inches tall.
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ReverendMyc

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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: normalperson]
#26795046 - 06/30/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hi NormalPerson. Great user name!
Around here, the dots you define as pins are usually referred to as knots. We call them pins when they have a distinct cap and stipe beginning to push up. Then fruit as they mature.
I know that there are some specific mycological terminology for the various stages, but these are the generally agreed upon terms that I have seen here.
-------------------- LAGM 2.024Stoned Gummys tek (Gummies from sclerotia or mushrooms) *Not just for stones any moreHow to succeed in mycology (and life) - know nothing, read everything, try something, and accept advice. Don't Panic   
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Bsfixit


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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: ReverendMyc]
#26795104 - 06/30/20 05:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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So ? How did it go ?
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Roger Clemency
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: Bsfixit]
#26795272 - 06/30/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Really well...he daid
-------------------- Sour grapes, sweet revenge Heaven starts right where hell ends
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normalperson
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: ReverendMyc]
#26797155 - 07/01/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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HEY NOW tydygy, i thank you for your reply. i've been here at shroomery for about 10 years but lost the passwords and email accounts used on my previous account in a house fire. i do understand most of the terminology used here but confess that it's difficult to keep up with the perception of what they mean (re: what does FAE stand for?) i think (judging from your reply) that we both agree that a knot is a very small blob with no cap. we also agree that a pin has both a cap and a stem (stipe). the only point of confusion between us seems to be the length of the stem (stipe). you seem to be saying (correct me if i'm wrong) that a pin has no/almost no stipe. i think a pin stays a pin regardless of the length of the stem, that it is the maturity stage of the cap that determines when a pin turns into a fruit. your definition could require dozens of pins to make a dry gram, mine could require only one, large pin. so, the question remains....what are all the other people posting on this thread referring to when they say "pins"?
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A.k.a
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: normalperson]
#26797189 - 07/01/20 02:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Fae is fresh air exchange.
That’s a good point about pins, I always consider them pins until the little skirt thing pops out and the cap starts to change too. So technically I’ve had bb size pins and some the size of my thumb.
Edited by A.k.a (07/01/20 02:43 PM)
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normalperson
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: A.k.a]
#26797239 - 07/01/20 03:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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there was a long thread about "what does FAE mean? not long ago i was just using that as an example, not as a question. i agree with your definition of a pin.
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ReverendMyc

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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: normalperson]
#26797301 - 07/01/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, live and learn. I was only thinking of them as pins for the first couple of days after they showed caps. So maybe the first inch or so and while the cap looks hard, dark and round. Once they started filling out I thought of them as fruits, then just before and after the veil breaks. I see what you are saying now.
So yup, I get what you mean when wondering if Phrontist is eating ¼ inch or 6 inch mushies. I am so intrigued by his questions that I plan to do some experimenting of my own. I think it would be great to discover that they reach say 50% or more of their potency in their first couple of days and 10% of their potential weight.
Unfortunately, since the test apparently broke Phrontist we will have to work it out ourselves. Good thing I have a few days off coming up.
-------------------- LAGM 2.024Stoned Gummys tek (Gummies from sclerotia or mushrooms) *Not just for stones any moreHow to succeed in mycology (and life) - know nothing, read everything, try something, and accept advice. Don't Panic   
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Phrontist
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: ReverendMyc]
#26797524 - 07/01/20 06:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Howdy! Experiment didn’t break me, lol. Just had a lot of real life yesterday. Sorry for the delay in reporting.

As I mentioned the other night, I went with ~25g of fresh “pins” which were all less than 1 1/2 inches tall. Picked, cleaned, weighed, and eaten within 5 minutes so there was minimal time for changes in the samples.
The experience was absolutely more than what I’d expect at an equivalent of mature fruits. My previous trip was ~38g of fresh mature fruits, and this one was close in strength to that, with a less intense peak. I would put this trip around 30-35g equivalent, as certain effects were present that don’t happen for me sub 3g/30g (dry/wet).
However, what occurred in my tub overnight was perhaps the most interesting thing: EVERY ITEM opened its veil, even the 1” pins I’d left behind. Looking things over, it felt very much like I’d caused a panic, “We’ve lost contact with all of our babies, drop all spores and make a new batch ASAP!” I’m insanely curious if anyone has seen such a thing before, as this behavior could be a potential roadblock to harvesting pins.
In thinking about all this, I came up with another theory I’d like to test in the near future. I’m wondering if the extreme discrepancy in strength people sometimes notice is not in just any pin per se, but rather in aborts specifically. Reading dozens of anecdotal reports from around the web, so many of them mention aborts.
We’re pretty sure that aborts happen because those growths pull excess moisture out of the substrate to correct conditions, then they stop growing and are consumed back into the mycelium. What if that process is triggered by filling the pin with 100% of its psilocybin and psilocin levels? Maybe that’s how the mycelium says, “ Okay, you’re done growing, you’ve fulfilled your purpose, time to pack up.” Almost like it tricks the growth by filling its capacity early, y’know?
Curious what y’all think about this.
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ReverendMyc

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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: Phrontist]
#26797551 - 07/01/20 06:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Glad you made it back! Totally understand about that real life thing. We were just very excited to see what you found out.
I am going to try to duplicate your results on a smaller scale. No WAY am I ready to eat 38 grams fresh. My plan is to separate the pins from the mature fruit on my harvest this evening and see what my before and after weights are when drying. Then try a normal weight dose of dried pins only.
Next flush I want to try harvesting them at about two days from pinning and do the same. Also curious to see if that prompts a new flush sooner or angers the myc into a stall.
-------------------- LAGM 2.024Stoned Gummys tek (Gummies from sclerotia or mushrooms) *Not just for stones any moreHow to succeed in mycology (and life) - know nothing, read everything, try something, and accept advice. Don't Panic   
Edited by ReverendMyc (07/01/20 06:32 PM)
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A.k.a
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: ReverendMyc]
#26797657 - 07/01/20 07:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Those are right where I normally harvest mine, or within a few hours of it. I think the potency was probably genetics this time unless that variety happens to grow significantly after opening the caps.
I was thinking like a day or two earlier than where those are to count as really pins.

Personally I’d consider these full grown fruits just with the cap closed. Could be just me though.
This is like what I think of as the farthest they can get and still be pins

Idk if I could bring myself to harvest a whole tub of them though lol.
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LAGM2020     
Edited by A.k.a (07/01/20 07:39 PM)
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Phrontist
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: A.k.a]
#26797718 - 07/01/20 08:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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@tydygy - awesome, looking forward to getting another perspective. Please post here afterwards!
@Aka - I think the perspective is making them look larger, and they’re in a toddler cup too, lol. Most of what you see is between 3/4” and 1”. Judging by the rest of the tub, those were still about 18-24 hours away from where you like them. There’s definitely room to go earlier though, and I’m keeping that in mind for future test runs. And yeah, it felt weird plucking them out, but even weirder when I saw how the rest of the tub reacted to my mass infanticide.
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A.k.a
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: Phrontist]
#26797754 - 07/01/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I’m going by how open the caps are, and like you said they were open the next day. I just had a whole tub of tiny Amazonians only a couple inches.
Somebody needs to just grow a clone and pluck pins within a couple days of them showing up, that’d be the ultimate test.
How much stronger was it for you than that kind normally are?
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LAGM2020     
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Phrontist
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: A.k.a]
#26798524 - 07/02/20 04:49 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: How much stronger was it for you than that kind normally are?
Not significantly stronger. Had I not been looking for a discrepancy and purposely made the dose just under my threshold, I’m not sure I would have noticed.
If I was forced to draw a conclusion based on this one test alone, I would say it’s not worth the sacrifice. And if you have to harvest them even sooner, you could possibly be talking about wiping out half a flush from a 54 quart monotub for one trip.
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ReverendMyc

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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: Phrontist]
#26799141 - 07/02/20 11:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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@Phrontist Thanks for the invite to post here, I didn’t want to hijack your thread, but will keep it here now.
@AKA That is my plan. I am going to grab them a couple of days old on the second flush from the tub I just harvested last night.
I separated my “pins” from my fruit when clipped last night. Though, it is really more that I have the small and large mushrooms separated. They are all in the dehydrator now. I hope to try the pins only this weekend to see if they feel stronger. I have a couple of guys that have been helping me with QA testing that I should be able to poll for additional opinions.
   
-------------------- LAGM 2.024Stoned Gummys tek (Gummies from sclerotia or mushrooms) *Not just for stones any moreHow to succeed in mycology (and life) - know nothing, read everything, try something, and accept advice. Don't Panic   
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Phrontist
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Re: Harvesting Pins Instead Of Mature Fruits [Re: ReverendMyc]
#26799207 - 07/02/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I’m also curious if pins are 90% water weight like matures. You seem to be tracking that. Nice!
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