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InvisibleThayendanegeaS
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Anatoly] * 1
    #26750976 - 06/17/20 08:10 AM (16 days, 2 hours ago)

Congratulations and thanks for sharing. 12 yrs. is a 4380 one day at a times.Please keep coming back, we need you.


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Look Deep Into Nature,and Then You Will Understand Everything Better.

Albert Einstein


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InvisibleDoc9151M
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Thayendanegea] * 1
    #26775302 - 06/22/20 08:00 PM (10 days, 15 hours ago)

Congratulations Anatoly, keep coming back. Glad you have been able to make it work, it's definitely not easy as we all know.:congrats:


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRaS
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Doc9151]
    #26785517 - 06/26/20 07:10 PM (6 days, 15 hours ago)

From Stanford University’s official YouTube page. Large new study finds AA very effective in fighting alcoholism.



Conclusion: AA is the best resource available for problem drinkers


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OfflineNortherner
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #26785868 - 06/26/20 10:00 PM (6 days, 13 hours ago)

The recidivism rate from AA is high. There are other ways to stop drinking that doesn't involve you having some sort of spiritual eclipse or taking 12 steps. I can personally attest to that.

But it does involve really not wanting to drink. Just wanting to avoid the negative consequences of alcohol abuse is not enough. You need to really understand the lie that is alcohol addiction. That every sip is pain and there is never any satisfaction. It is literally liquid suffering for addicts. Right from the first drink the craving and the suffering amplifies.

When you truly understand this lie, if you go to drink you will realise that in moments it's going to be even worse than what it is right this moment. You force yourself to recognise it as poison, before you drink it. It will smell to you like the poison it is.

Then you associate the craving with the poison and you feel revulsion rather than cravings. It's truly sickening. Fortunately the cravings fade in time. Pretty quick. Less than a fortnight to be free of them, and then just impulses that are easily dismissed at trigger moments until you've faced them all.

Those triggers are tricks, part of the lie. Ignore triggers at all costs. Delay and walk away.

Don't think of a black horse. Ignore alcohol. Do not think about it. Do not dwell. It does not have any power over you. It's just a poison you no longer drink.

Hope this helps someone.

I'm not anti AA. If it works for you that's fantastic. There are answers for people outside of the program though. There is a way out without being part of club that makes you think about the thing you should not be thinking about, the thing you should be eliminating from your life. Which was really the key for me. Eliminating it from my thought processes.


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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


Edited by Northerner (06/26/20 10:07 PM)


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Northerner]
    #26786172 - 06/27/20 01:24 AM (6 days, 9 hours ago)

That was part of the rewiring of my thinking.  Ignoring the immediate ‘pleasure’ and realizing that should I drink I’ll be worse off than I am right now and it added a value to my baseline sober mind.  I got an appreciation for ‘here and now’ as opposed to trying to get somewhere...  gotta get a bottle, gotta get smokes, gotta get whatever and I’ll be good..  as if I’m for some reason not good right now.  I got caught up in that for a long time.


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRaS
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Northerner]
    #26787045 - 06/27/20 10:49 AM (6 days, 16 minutes ago)

Quote:

The recidivism rate from AA is high.




AA is at least 20% more effective than any other approach. Like the addiction specialist from Harvard says in that video if a certain treatment for cancer was found to be that much more effective than other treatments the medical community would be nuts for it.

I didn’t say there aren’t relapses. I didn’t say it’s for everybody. I said a huge study was conducted and one of the most prestigious universities in the world stand by the results that indicate it’s the most effective course action available.


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OfflineNortherner
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #26787829 - 06/27/20 05:04 PM (5 days, 18 hours ago)

I didn't say you said any of the things you are denying saying either. Using comparative percentages masks the long term outcomes of the program, statistics can be misleading like that. It's true though that there is no other treatment per se that matches it, rehab is bullshit. But correlating poor long term outcomes with extremely poor long term outcomes is a sleight of hand.

The vast majority of alcoholics give up alcohol on their own terms after multiple failed attempts, and do it alone. Every tool that can be given to people suffering alcohol addiction, every way to deeper understanding of how it works and how to more quickly overcome it is lives saved.

I don't like the mental obsession with alcohol that continues with AA. It is part of the addiction and just changing that obsession to counting days and attending meetings does not address the issue. I don't believe that people should remain addicted in mind. I believe people should eliminate alcohol from their lives completely. They only time I ever think of alcohol now is when it comes up in discussion or is in front of me. I'm not still an alcoholic, I do not believe that at all. I am free of the addiction. If I start drinking again I will soon be exactly at the place where I left it, but that doesn't mean I'm addicted now. Living the life of alcohol obsessed dry drunk is an awful thing, I will not do that to myself. Same as if I picked up methcathinone again, within a week I'd be back on a gram a day. That does not mean I'm still a cat head, it's just how addiction works. All addictions.

But each to their own. Of the several addictions I've had in my life alcohol was the hardest to give up. It was my life for a decade. I do not begrudge anyone in any way who finds any way out of the trap. But I do urge everyone who finds themselves addicted to alcohol to search for as much information as they can about overcoming it. There are a lot of knowledgable people on topic and much free help to be had that is invaluable.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRaS
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #26788142 - 06/27/20 07:33 PM (5 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

The vast majority of alcoholics give up alcohol on their own terms after multiple failed attempts, and do it alone.




Link?


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRaS
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #26788149 - 06/27/20 07:36 PM (5 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

I don't like the mental obsession with alcohol that continues with AA.




I don’t like my brain forgetting all the agony I went through because I need it to fortify my sobriety.


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: TheFakeSunRa] * 1
    #26788491 - 06/27/20 11:15 PM (5 days, 11 hours ago)

To each their own.  There’s probably not a one shot fix to how people approach alcoholism.

I had the same feeling with AA.  The couple of times I went it was people going around in a circle talking about how they used to get fucked up.  I felt like I was going back instead of moving forward.  It’s like if you have a break up with a girlfriend... you move on.  You don’t keep calling that ex girlfriend and rehashing the bad times.

For some obsessive people I’m sure the constant reminder is a good thing even though to me it seems like it’s what they say when someone is a “dry drunk” and even though they aren’t drinking their minds are still obsessed with it.  Where I’m at right now I can’t think of any value I would have in going back and talking about my days of drinking unless it was geared towards helping someone who had just quit and was in the process of breaking the cycle.  Outside of that, it’s done.  I’ve moved on.  Those days are gone and my mental make up involves nothing to do with alcohol.

At the end of the day, if it keeps you from drinking, I’m all for it.  Whatever it is..


--------------------
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:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
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OfflineNortherner
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Amanita86]
    #26788561 - 06/28/20 12:07 AM (5 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

The vast majority of alcoholics give up alcohol on their own terms after multiple failed attempts, and do it alone.




Link?



Here's a few, I can't find the stuff I read years ago when I was giving up alcohol, but there are multiple scientific studies about it.

https://aeon.co/essays/most-drug-users-stop-without-help-so-long-as-they-re-not-poor
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-you-cure-yourself-of-addiction/
https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/matters-of-substance/matters-of-substance-november-2014/ageing-out-of-addiction/

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

I don't like the mental obsession with alcohol that continues with AA.




I don’t like my brain forgetting all the agony I went through because I need it to fortify my sobriety.



That's great man. If it works for you, more power to you. :thumbup:

If in the future you decide to move on and forget about all the pain and shit just know it can be done. You don't have to constantly relive it to stay sober. You'll never forget how poisonous and soul destroying alcohol is. There is a forgiveness process involved though. That can be pretty hardcore facing your shit and saying sorry to yourself for all the pain you caused you.

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
At the end of the day, if it keeps you from drinking, I’m all for it.  Whatever it is..



Hoorah for that.


--------------------
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InvisibleTheFakeSunRaS
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #26788875 - 06/28/20 04:22 AM (5 days, 6 hours ago)

Those links are interesting. For me though I drank heavier and heavier year after year until my late 40’s.

I used coke in my teens and early twenties but it was easy to quit.


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InvisibleDoc9151M
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: TheFakeSunRa] * 1
    #26790902 - 06/28/20 08:43 PM (4 days, 14 hours ago)

It doesn't matter how you stop, it matters that you have recognized a life threatening problem and am willing to do whatever it takes to fix it. Whether it's AA, NA, friends of Jesus or electroshock.

I give AA credit because it is the 1st to say "Hey, I know where you are. I understand your struggle, there is HOPE"!!!

It's not for everyone, those that find it difficult to believe in a higher power struggle and its not the only way.

A desire to quit the only requirement,  no one says that you have to be on the wagon to be accepted. If you really don't want to quit it won't work, but it's like anything else,  if you really want it there's a way. The only way to get away from any addiction is to be truly sick and tired of the life style because if you don't do something different then nothing will change.


--------------------
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InvisibleThayendanegeaS
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #26791576 - 06/29/20 08:02 AM (4 days, 3 hours ago)

Thanks for sharing that FSR. There will always be doubters and other pathways to sobriety. I will offer this one observation of mine during my couple years of sobriety...
In How it works, there is the phrase "Rarely have we seen a person fail that has THOUROUGHLY followed our path" This is exactly what I have seen.
Almost everyone I have met or corresponded with through the years that has struggled or simply wrote AA off has at most had one foot in the program. They attended meetings looking for reasons why the program won't work for them. That was part of my process and what kept me drinking for many more years than I could have and I thank God that I survived those final years.
There really are some nut cases in AA as there are everywhere so it is important to go to several meetings before you make one your home group. The next phase is to get involved and not just attend meetings...get peoples phone numbers, ask if you can be of some help to the group, help put chairs away or pick up cigarette butts.

I'm not going to keep going on and on but AA truly is a miraculous program for I have witnessed some amazing and bizarre "coincidences" through the years. This is not the first recognition by the scientific community, in 1951 it was recognized with the "Lasker Award" which is a very prestigious scientific award not to be taken lightly.:sunny::peace:


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Look Deep Into Nature,and Then You Will Understand Everything Better.

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OfflineAnatoly
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #26792072 - 06/29/20 01:18 PM (3 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

I don't like the mental obsession with alcohol that continues with AA.




I don’t like my brain forgetting all the agony I went through because I need it to fortify my sobriety.






This^


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OfflineAnatoly
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Thayendanegea]
    #26792097 - 06/29/20 01:28 PM (3 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

Thayendanegea said:
Thanks for sharing that FSR. There will always be doubters and other pathways to sobriety. I will offer this one observation of mine during my couple years of sobriety...
In How it works, there is the phrase "Rarely have we seen a person fail that has THOUROUGHLY followed our path" This is exactly what I have seen.
Almost everyone I have met or corresponded with through the years that has struggled or simply wrote AA off has at most had one foot in the program. They attended meetings looking for reasons why the program won't work for them. That was part of my process and what kept me drinking for many more years than I could have and I thank God that I survived those final years.
There really are some nut cases in AA as there are everywhere so it is important to go to several meetings before you make one your home group. The next phase is to get involved and not just attend meetings...get peoples phone numbers, ask if you can be of some help to the group, help put chairs away or pick up cigarette butts.

I'm not going to keep going on and on but AA truly is a miraculous program for I have witnessed some amazing and bizarre "coincidences" through the years. This is not the first recognition by the scientific community, in 1951 it was recognized with the "Lasker Award" which is a very prestigious scientific award not to be taken lightly.:sunny::peace:



Quote:

Thayendanegea said:


This too^

I read before that Dr. Bob wanted the first sentence in "How it Works" to read "Never have we seen a person fail...."  I agree with Dr. Bob. If you truly follow the program, clean house and help others......it frickin works. Also, you feel humbled to have helped another suffering fool like yourself, and grateful for even the biggest idiots in AA......they can teach valuable lessons as well.


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRaS
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Thayendanegea]
    #26792308 - 06/29/20 02:40 PM (3 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Almost everyone I have met or corresponded with through the years that has struggled or simply wrote AA off has at most had one foot in the program. They attended meetings looking for reasons why the program won't work for them




We both know that the more austere attendees would consider me a sort of “half measures” member

However, believe it or not, I’m always looking for reasons the program WILL work for me. According to that one social scientist, in his opinion, part of the success rate comes from flexibility. If it wasn’t for tradition 3 AA wouldn’t have worked for me. We both know that I’m a work in progress and still have my share of problems and I don’t take your advice to adhere to the program more strictly lightly.

Let’s just say tradition 3 saved my life because that’s for sure. I also know that I need more work and that still has to be done honestly. I get that the ball is in my court.


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InvisibleThayendanegeaS
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #26794014 - 06/30/20 08:34 AM (3 days, 2 hours ago)

:hug:It's so good to have you around!


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Look Deep Into Nature,and Then You Will Understand Everything Better.

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