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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: Darwin23]
    #26809854 - 07/07/20 08:22 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

I respect your point of view, but you're forgetting something that a lot of people forget -- the nature of indigenous life varied dramatically across the globe. Some indigenous people had a very hard time. Look up the Yanomamo. Some, more or less okay, not great, whatever. Some indigenous had a pretty good go of it. The Kung of the Kalahari and the Hadza of Tanzania work on average less than three hours per day.

I was merely trying to highlight the fact that civilization has brought much more killing and death into the equation than ever existed in indigenous societies. And that's true. That does not mean, nor was I trying to imply, that life in the wild is easy.

Remember there have been tens of thousands of distinct cultures since humans evolved. Honestly, using the example of one of them doesn't mean much.


Quote:

I think the case can be made that we have moved too far from nature, but the idea that civilization in and of itself is negative for humanity, I think is not a great argument.




Please remember that civilization goes back to about 8000 BC, and during all that time, roughly 95% of the population existed in a servile/pauper class. So I guess I would say, one Amazonian tribe is not representative of all indigenous groups, and middle-class American civilization is not representative of civilization.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26809902 - 07/07/20 08:50 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

I don't think the question can be answered,  on the grounds that we only get to live one life, in one time & place(s). So we make do with novels and movies and biographies to try and get a feel, for what various other possibilities might have been, or be like. In fact we are so curious, we even explore science fiction & futuristic scenarios. I certainly enjoy such explorations part of the time, while at other times attempting to be more mindful in the present.

Another aspect is that as regards 'civilization', I expect it all to get much worse rather soon. Whether I or it deteriorates faster, is also unanswerable. So I think that for me there may be better questions to focus on, although the news is now so surreal that it seems hard to ignore it completely. Reminds one of the ancient Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times".


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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OnlineInnerWisdom
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26810036 - 07/07/20 11:02 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

The jungle is no place for humans. In less hostile environments primitive tribes can do quite well I think, but of course life with tech is much easier and safer.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26812392 - 07/09/20 09:03 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Seems to me the question is about: what might be ideal
or
what would be ideal
on these grounds alone, the question, has no answer --

As Buddhism stated 2500years ago - with teachings about "dukkha"
or: ideals can never be reality (for longer than the blink of an eye)
and by definition what might be  is not what is

And we only ever live in the present moment with what is
so if Reality is the mess, humans have turned the planet into, for themselves
Then that's exactly what Reality is, and all that Reality can be.

Perhaps all the pop science talk about multiverses, and long ago talk about reincarnation has confused folks.

They say often alcoholics only get better when they wake up in their own vomit, and realize there is both no one else to blame for their choices, and that their behavior is first and foremost hurting themselves.
In other words both denial and attempting to constantly escape, have both been terminated in one instant.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26812408 - 07/09/20 09:15 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

so you are saying the questions are bad
what is a better question?


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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26814278 - 07/10/20 04:30 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

if I draw and behave orderly will that not be better?


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26814311 - 07/10/20 05:00 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

I think the original post is confusing and borderline poppycock.  For one, civilization is part of nature - it’s taking place in nature - and we, we are of nature itself too, so how is it separate?  The line between what’s natural & what’s not is what needs to be checked here.  What exactly do you have in mind when asking on what grounds is Civ. better than a state of nature? Would it make sense to ask the same thing of Ants & their colonies?

Just because it’s harder to recognize that everything we have comes from nature, doesn’t mean it’s not of nature - it is.  Dismantle or mentally deconstruct any thing around you into it’s aggregates and it becomes more obvious that it can only come from nature - necessarily.

By some definitions you can’t even have something that is truly supernatural or unnatural or what have you because the definition of natural, or nature,  logically subsumes them.  So I think, at least on this point, you need to clarify.

Until you do I can only make assumptions as to what your true meaning is.

Also also. All life dies, yep.  But take away civilization and the safety net it provides and the dying part generally comes much faster & more easily.  Anyone who believes they won’t die because of our living situation is simply deluded, but make no mistake - civilization provides real protections to attenuate a plethora of problems for a significant amount of people.  How is that even questionable?



--------------------
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Edited by The Blind Ass (07/10/20 05:08 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26814644 - 07/10/20 08:59 AM (1 month, 4 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I think the original post is confusing and borderline poppycock.  For one, civilization is part of nature - it’s taking place in nature - and we, we are of nature itself too, so how is it separate?  The line between what’s natural & what’s not is what needs to be checked here.  What exactly do you have in mind when asking on what grounds is Civ. better than a state of nature? Would it make sense to ask the same thing of Ants & their colonies?

Just because it’s harder to recognize that everything we have comes from nature, doesn’t mean it’s not of nature - it is.  Dismantle or mentally deconstruct any thing around you into it’s aggregates and it becomes more obvious that it can only come from nature - necessarily.

By some definitions you can’t even have something that is truly supernatural or unnatural or what have you because the definition of natural, or nature,  logically subsumes them.  So I think, at least on this point, you need to clarify.

Until you do I can only make assumptions as to what your true meaning is.

Also also. All life dies, yep.  But take away civilization and the safety net it provides and the dying part generally comes much faster & more easily.  Anyone who believes they won’t die because of our living situation is simply deluded, but make no mistake - civilization provides real protections to attenuate a plethora of problems for a significant amount of people.  How is that even questionable?







It's quite simple, really. It has nothing to do with what is "part of nature." I use the anthropological definition: an example of a human society in a "state of nature" would be hunter-gatherer tribes, which are typically egalitarian, have no wealth inequality or social hierarchy, share all economic returns, have only a very minor division of labor, have no authority figures, etc. Examples of this would be the Hadza, the Kung, the Mehinacu, the Mbuti, and various Native American tribes.

"Civilization" means hierarchy: wealth and social inequality, division of labor, specialization, stratification, sedentism, taxes, tribute, and vast and powerful authority structures. Examples would be ancient or modern China, ancient or modern Egypt, ancient or modern Rome, Renaissance Europe, and almost every modern country, certainly the developed ones.

I am not trying to say anything about what is natural or unnatural; I am merely referring to the anthropological dichotomy of economies with an immediate economic return vs. a delayed economic return, fundamentally.

Btw, regarding your last point, it was common, at least in the Hadza examples I have studied, for hunter-gatherers to live into their 80s. So this whole notion of quick death is kind of a biased meme.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26814688 - 07/10/20 09:31 AM (1 month, 4 days ago)

delayed return in economy is the concept of rationing, i.e. assessing need and supply and trimming demand to accommodate, while seeing balance.

rationing is part of basic homeostasis, however it requires insight and collaboration.


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26814691 - 07/10/20 09:32 AM (1 month, 4 days ago)

Oh.  :cheers:

Just woke up from a great sleep.  Never make posts while sleep deprived!


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26815752 - 07/10/20 06:12 PM (1 month, 4 days ago)

DividedQuantum said:

It's quite simple, really. It has nothing to do with what is "part of nature." I use the anthropological definition: an example of a human society in a "state of nature" would be hunter-gatherer tribes, which are typically egalitarian, have no wealth inequality or social hierarchy, share all economic returns, have only a very minor division of labor, have no authority figures, etc. Examples of this would be the Hadza, the Kung, the Mehinacu, the Mbuti, and various Native American tribes.

"Civilization" means hierarchy: wealth and social inequality, division of labor, specialization, stratification, sedentism, taxes, tribute, and vast and powerful authority structures. Examples would be ancient or modern China, ancient or modern Egypt, ancient or modern Rome, Renaissance Europe, and almost every modern country, certainly the developed ones.

I am not trying to say anything about what is natural or unnatural; I am merely referring to the anthropological dichotomy of economies with an immediate economic return vs. a delayed economic return, fundamentally. ....




.    Seems this clarification sort of answers the question, already.
.    Seems Huxley may have posed a similar question to himself before writing, a book to show us the values that are involved in attempting to answer it. That book of course is "Brave New World". He was of course himself a very civilized person, but even in 1931 (when it was written), it is clear that he feels civilization (if not already) eventually leads to something for which the price is exorbitant. In his story the excuse for the price is that there is no more war.
.    So partly his position is theoretical. Perhaps what is also suggested is that the attempt to control everything, is even in itself a wild card, that creates unexpected consequences. In the strange event that covid-19 & climate change are successfully dealt with, CRISPR may yet result in some changes similar to the cloning Huxley imagined about 90 years ago.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26816127 - 07/10/20 09:31 PM (1 month, 4 days ago)

If we are not the highest form of evolution then what is?

Orders and branches of life over lesser forms of order..

I like the point that everything necessarily is natural..

But we as humans can abstract things which CAN lead to division/seperation..
^
So another question..

Are aliens superior to us? Are vampires?

Was Jesus higher than any alien that has had contact with Earth..?

I can say as a form of equilibrium that there are many animals that don't quite have the intelligence that is comparable to us Humans.. But if we met these animals without weapons.. we would get owned..

Claws.. sharp teeth..fast speed.. hugely more strength..

My final conjecture is that most animals are very rigid.. following instincts.

With enough practice of martial arts.. and a huge body and ultimate strength we could probably win facing an angry Bear..

I wonder if we could beat an Elephant..or a Shark perhaps..?

I think if we were in water we would most likely lose against a sea going predator.. but I have heard stories of Shark attacks and the person ending up pushing their eyes in and then the Shark swimming away in pain..


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26816158 - 07/10/20 09:48 PM (1 month, 4 days ago)

We created the concept of top and bottom...where better to place ourselves other than first.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


Edited by pineninja (07/10/20 09:49 PM)


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: pineninja]
    #26816205 - 07/10/20 10:29 PM (1 month, 4 days ago)

Well.. do ypu think humans can earn enough merit to actually be on top of the pyramid?

Atop the hierarchy of needs, wants, self actualization?

Atop the food cycle of life pyramid?

On top of the social hierarchy?

Alpha males on top with huge egos.. who have usually earned their spot because of their intelligence/wisdom?


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #26816299 - 07/10/20 11:58 PM (1 month, 4 days ago)

There is not top without a middle and a base.
Separation of "merit" is a human abberation and shows our ignorance of the whole imo.



LUCKY not deluded.


What an amazing coincidence it is, that were always at the top.
In all that we do and say, plus never to stop.
Smart enough to build pyramids then place ourselves abreast.
With no end to evolution nil competitors to test.

For the underlings cannot build and progress towards the stars.
These insignificant birds and insects fly stupidly into our cars. 
The beasts seem blindly not to have purpose.
Least not till their dutifully performing tricks in our man made circus. 

The trees seem benign enough they're passive and separate, no real threat.
We can chop them down at will what's the worst that happen, have you seen my new longe set.
The soil and skies are things to exploit with the intellects and skilled.
When sitting atop its dominion this beast cares lest whos killed.

What a lucky roll of the dice it is that we were played.
When everything is beneath us with no understanding of being slayed.
Our creativity used to rule and manipulate with ease.
Our fragment controlling the the massive to do as we please.

Though Imagine if this game decided it was no longer our turn.
Imagine if our delusions of superiority, as if there were such a thing, cause us to burn.
When the cries of the last few importants are so pointlessly covered with moss.
Will the universe even notice the loss.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26816723 - 07/11/20 08:00 AM (1 month, 4 days ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
If we are not the highest form of evolution then what is?...




Apparently you haven't studied evolution or biology so you don't understand them yet.
Evolution is only about adaptation to a certain niche (place), at a certain time, in relation to other species, also occupying that place & time. There is no one top; or more accurately any top, as all species interact to maintain ecosystems.

In terms of both numbers (population) and millions of years a species has survived, humans are nothing even notable. Bacteria and insects have been, and are, far more successful. And of course plants and fungi.
Even the dinosaurs lasted between 165 and 177 million years, and we know what happened to them.

Most likely Humans are only another failed evolutionary experiment, with just enough brain to think they are more special than they are.

See for example: "Human Errors: A Panorama of Our Glitches, from Pointless Bones to Broken Genes  by Nathan H. Lents

available from Amazon:

"We humans like to think of ourselves as highly evolved creatures. But if we are supposedly evolution's greatest creation, why do we have such bad knees? Why do we catch head colds so often - 200 times more often than a dog does? How come our wrists have so many useless bones? Why is the vast majority of our genetic code pointless? And are we really supposed to swallow and breathe through the same narrow tube? Surely there's been some kind of mistake.

As professor of biology Nathan H. Lents explains in Human Errors, our evolutionary history is nothing if not a litany of mistakes, each more entertaining and enlightening than the last. The human body is one big pile of compromises. But that is also a testament to our greatness: as Lents shows, humans have so many design flaws precisely because we are very, very good at getting around them.

A rollicking, deeply informative tour of humans' four billion year-long evolutionary saga, Human Errors both celebrates our imperfections and offers an unconventional accounting of the cost of our success."


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


Edited by laughingdog (07/11/20 08:01 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26817060 - 07/11/20 11:02 AM (1 month, 3 days ago)

pyramids are for mathematicians, the pharos used them to dominate mightily.
where are those pharos today?

prolly extinct.


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26818467 - 07/11/20 11:42 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Civilization like most things comes with pros and cons.

The pros of civilization are hard to give up once you have experienced them. For example I have dental problems. If I lived in a hunter gatherer society I probably would have died a long, slow and painful death due to my impacted wisdom teeth. That may have been accepted thousands of years ago but after living in a civilization where an oral surgeon can easily fix the problem I think it would be hard to go back.

Of course there are many miserable things about living in modern society. It seems misery is unavoidable. I know I don't like these modern times we live in but I am addicted to the comforts they provide.


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: Peyote Road]
    #26818577 - 07/12/20 01:18 AM (1 month, 3 days ago)

So as an if statement..

Humans think they are superior..

Humans are necsarily higher than other life forms..

Or human are deluded and their ideas of superiority are false and based on no evidence..

If evolution is true then how can we account on false hood?

Why would basic ideas of evolution be wrong?


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Re: On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature? [Re: Peyote Road]
    #26818728 - 07/12/20 05:06 AM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Civilization like most things comes with pros and cons.

The pros of civilization are hard to give up once you have experienced them. For example I have dental problems. If I lived in a hunter gatherer society I probably would have died a long, slow and painful death due to my impacted wisdom teeth. That may have been accepted thousands of years ago but after living in a civilization where an oral surgeon can easily fix the problem I think it would be hard to go back.

Of course there are many miserable things about living in modern society. It seems misery is unavoidable. I know I don't like these modern times we live in but I am addicted to the comforts they provide.




Are you truly addicted or is it that you've never really been provided another valid option.

You were preyed upon in school and the dealers are unwitting teachers.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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