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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
Are you a shill?
    #26791226 - 06/29/20 01:53 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Do you believe there is an effervescent nature to human consciousness, AND that evolution is true?


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26791249 - 06/29/20 02:19 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Consciousness is pure and so is every object within it.. it is only in consciousness that you can take something apart and put it back together again..


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26791260 - 06/29/20 02:42 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

But do you believe in evolution?


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #26791266 - 06/29/20 02:48 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Sudly, I’d say there is an “effervescent” dimension to all of our life’s experience because of Mind, which in turn is itself like an emergent property of having a sufficiently complex & formed brain + the rest of the organism embodied all into one, interacting & interdependent with the environment at large - with it all being brought about by natural evolutionary processes.  But there’s also probably more to the grand story.
How ‘bout dat.  Or is it too shilly for you?
:jimmies:


Edited by The Blind Ass (06/29/20 07:02 AM)


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26791267 - 06/29/20 02:51 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yes change, adaptation freewill.. learning and definitely evolution..

Spontaneous generation is an interesting theory..

Morphogenetics as well..

Game theory applied to natural systems and hierarchies..

Concluding with what has been changed and what has stayed the same!

0 as change and 1 as the thing that has stayed the same..?

Or should it be a zero change event vs a changing one perhaps a straight line perhaps not.. but one with angles.. measured down to a point..

Decimals, real numbers and integers always to measure angle and geometry..

Myswell include Gematria Science as well!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26791352 - 06/29/20 04:41 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Do you believe there is an effervescent nature to human consciousness, AND that evolution is true?



define effervescent in this.

of course evolution is true, but again, not everyone understands the term.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26791740 - 06/29/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Re: sudly

Evolution does not explain everything. Yes it works to explain much of the diversity of life. "Now-a- days", it is modified somewhat to include new info on epigenetics, and a few other 'things', but in essence it holds true.

Time itself has no duration and space no size, as they can't 'get outside themselves' to measure themselves. Like wise, awareness of awareness, has no measurable characteristics.

All 3 of the above 'categories' are more abstract than the more concrete phenomenon that manifest 'within' them.

When you ask: "Do you believe there is an effervescent nature to human consciousness" it seems to me you attempt, to define or explain, abstractions in the terms that only apply to manifestations of concrete phenomenon.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26791898 - 06/29/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

:whathesaid:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26792868 - 06/29/20 06:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Do you believe there is an effervescent nature to human consciousness, AND that evolution is true?



define effervescent in this.

of course evolution is true, but again, not everyone understands the term.




I meant it as in champagne bubbles, but I suppose enthusiastic is a nice thought too.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26792878 - 06/29/20 06:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Is anyone suggesting there's an ephemeral nature to human consciousness?


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26793422 - 06/29/20 10:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The consciousness itself is a still.. meaning it is always at something..

The something is either still here.. something at rest.. or something that is ephemeral.. A changing thing from one body to another..

So too can the consciousness itself be still.. but that nature of what we concentrate on can change..


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26793525 - 06/30/20 12:25 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

So to be clear, or at least concise, you are suggesting an ephemeral nature to human consciousness.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26793613 - 06/30/20 01:52 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I am contending that both staying the same and changimg are both part of consciousnes.

The person/being is self existent and is always still..

But the objects of consciousness are bound to change.. The things that one is conscious of.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26793649 - 06/30/20 02:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Are you suggesting an ephemeral nature to consciousness?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26793720 - 06/30/20 05:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

ephemerality is essential to the content of consciousness.
consciousness however is transitory and non-continuous e.g. sleep, death.
during wakefulness, consciousness seems continuous due to currents of associative links.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26793747 - 06/30/20 05:29 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It's funny how effervescent and ephemeral fit, but what about ethereal?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26793867 - 06/30/20 07:04 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

ethereal relates to what you might smoke


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26795062 - 06/30/20 05:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Would anyone defend an ethereal nature to human consciousness?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26795106 - 06/30/20 05:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I would!

I think that awareness is like voidness which is like space or ether (not the chemical called ether)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26795207 - 06/30/20 06:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Could human consciousness be both ephemeral, and ethereal (incorporeity)?


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26795503 - 06/30/20 08:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

And in regard to wifi, or radio signals, I don't think they should be considered ethereal, or intangible in the sense.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26795605 - 06/30/20 09:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It’s almost like a hologram or magical illusion.  I’m thankful for it.  It’s really quite wonderful.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26795675 - 06/30/20 09:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Are you referring to radio waves or human consciousness?

And do you see a distinction between the two?


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26795796 - 06/30/20 10:19 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Human consciousness.  Yes I distinguish between the two.  Don’t get me wrong though, I’m not saying it’s literally magic or literally a hologram .  It’s a figure of speech.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26796040 - 07/01/20 12:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

So how would you distinguish between human consciousness and radiowaves?

I would lean towards their ethereal status, but I'm interested in other views.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26796049 - 07/01/20 01:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Could the universe ever bring about anything more fundamentally miraculous than something which allows it to be privy to itself- ie - consciousness?  Awareness?  That’s my sentiment.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26796083 - 07/01/20 01:30 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You haven't made a distinguishment?

I wasn't asking rhetorically.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26796117 - 07/01/20 02:14 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I know nothing.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26796174 - 07/01/20 03:43 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said: Yes I distinguish between the two.



:jimmies:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26796244 - 07/01/20 05:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I am glad I missed these hours of troubled thinking.
radio waves are signal on a carrier.
consciousness or brainwaves are strictly localized complex fields rapidly interacting in the supportive tissue (cerebral cortex).
outside of this tissue, the field effects diminish rapidly and have no sharable content, while radio waves are all about a steady carrier wave and content or signal carried for miles.
the carrier for consciousness is the physical brain. all localized.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26796313 - 07/01/20 06:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

gasoline and transcence

such is awareness

it is being there

it is not being there

with being there

both


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26796317 - 07/01/20 06:07 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

if everyone would understand how awesome smoked dmt is on a psych psychs would be legal in no time


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26796348 - 07/01/20 06:46 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Radio waves don't appear to be ethereal.

Isn't it kind of closed minded to think only brain waves are involved? Especially in regard to a complex field.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26796519 - 07/01/20 08:37 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

the signal on radio is one dimensional compression of sound waves to EM signal intensity over radio waves, it can be received at a point and expanded easily back to sound (for stereo 2 channels, no prob).

Brainwaves only have multipoint efficacy in the tissue, once out of the tissue there are no receptors pick it up, and if they did pick it up the arrangement of points is no longer strictly the same so no memory excitation, no recognition of forms etc..

sameness of points in the arrangement is what permits the memory effect: and each memory has thousands of geometrically related points not just stereo.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26797491 - 07/01/20 05:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

What is a brainwave field made out of ? Can it be measured ?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26797568 - 07/01/20 06:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

measured all the time on an eeg.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26798975 - 07/02/20 10:16 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

So the actual waves measured on the graph aren’t really what a brainwave is.  It’s a response to something occurring in the brain.  So would it be fair to say that you can only experience brain wave states and not directly observe them?  In which case I would slide towards the ethereal view.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26799149 - 07/02/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
So the actual waves measured on the graph aren’t really what a brainwave is.  It’s a response to something occurring in the brain.  So would it be fair to say that you can only experience brain wave states and not directly observe them?  In which case I would slide towards the ethereal view.



they are waveforms from the spots being recorded. those waveforms are resultant interference waves (or cumulative energies from crossing wavepaths) from a plurality of excited neurons, some sensory, some motor, some auditory, some visual, some visceral etc. etc.

this is a low resolution eeg. a very high resolution eeg would have about 250000 leads (still a low number) and could record a much more meaningful fluctuation of electrical fields. One that could be played back to the same or another person with the same kind of calibrated sensor arrangement.

at this higher resolution, it could be reasonable to transfer the recording of a few minutes onto the original or another person's brain, and then see how much got realized by the recipient person, by comparing notes with the originator of the neural activity record.

Lots to learn and re-learn from that set of experiments (and I am sure it is coming in the next 5 years or so,) about thinking and feeling, dreaming and tripping, and also about mpd and other varieties of mental difficulties.

I suspect not ethereal at all, just a different aspect of localized electrical field interference patterns that connect to other ones.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26799716 - 07/02/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

So you are saying that consciousness is a complex interference pattern of various colliding patterns that takes place in the body.  Firing and interacting neurons that produce wave pattern frequencies of some kind that are basically what is conscious experience. 

If that’s the case then I’ll accept that.  However it goes back to the nature of matter in the first place doesn’t it?  And there I would assume you’d say “Big Bang” which isn’t all that solid.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26799756 - 07/02/20 04:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
So you are saying that consciousness is a complex interference pattern of various colliding patterns that takes place in the body.  Firing and interacting neurons that produce wave pattern frequencies of some kind that are basically what is conscious experience. 





yes, that is part of consciousness, it is also half of the engine that creates memory.

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
If that’s the case then I’ll accept that.  However it goes back to the nature of matter in the first place doesn’t it?  And there I would assume you’d say “Big Bang” which isn’t all that solid.



I do not agree that this is the same as morphogenic fields nor do I think that ordinary non-cellular matter (non-brain tissue) can sustain complex wave form interference and form memories from that.
Most of Animalia does have some brain tissue that will enable experiencing and learning.
so not all the way to the big bang but millions of years of instances of consciousness, individuals, entities moving around on the earth, sea, air.


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Offlinegreenladel

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Re: Are you a shill? *DELETED* [Re: sudly]
    #26799895 - 07/02/20 05:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by greenladel

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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: greenladel]
    #26800481 - 07/02/20 10:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It's clear to me we evolved the odd trick of sentient thought, the specifics (mechanisms) are open for debate though.

Adding an ethereal nature removes earthly bounds in my view, and with that view, what need is there for evolution?

I believe an ethereal nature to sentience undermines a belief in evolution.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26800699 - 07/03/20 04:45 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

you may have believed yourself into a corner


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26800717 - 07/03/20 05:16 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Of the market.

Quote:

Thales, so the story goes, because of his poverty was taunted with the uselessness of philosophy; but from his knowledge of astronomy he had observed while it was still winter that there was going to be a large crop of olives, so he raised a small sum of money and paid round deposits for the whole of the olive-presses in Miletus and Chios, which he hired at a low rent as nobody was running him up; and when the season arrived, there was a sudden demand for a number of presses at the same time, and by letting them out on what terms he liked he realized a large sum of money, so proving that it is easy for philosophers to be rich if they choose.




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Offlinegreenladel

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Re: Are you a shill? *DELETED* [Re: sudly]
    #26800767 - 07/03/20 06:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by greenladel

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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: greenladel]
    #26800848 - 07/03/20 06:55 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Is evolution a bias?


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Offlinegreenladel

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Re: Are you a shill? *DELETED* [Re: sudly]
    #26800860 - 07/03/20 07:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by greenladel

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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: greenladel]
    #26800884 - 07/03/20 07:15 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

What's one thing you don't believe about the theory?

I mean, when I was born I was open to all theories, and yet somehow I understand how the Sun works.


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Offlinesideroxylon
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26801020 - 07/03/20 08:22 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Mind as opposed to matter -- the mind is not ephemeral, but the body is.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sideroxylon]
    #26802579 - 07/04/20 12:52 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You don't believe mind as opposed to matter?

And if the mind isn't ephemeral.. what are you suggesting the body is?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26802907 - 07/04/20 06:59 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

maybe he was pointing out how temporary bodies are (100 years max?)
yet the principle of mind seems eternal .

it is probably a  poetic gesture


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26803046 - 07/04/20 08:33 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

it is probably a  poetic gesture




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Offlinegreenladel

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Re: Are you a shill? *DELETED* [Re: sudly]
    #26804300 - 07/04/20 09:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

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Offlinegreenladel

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Re: Are you a shill? *DELETED* [Re: sideroxylon]
    #26804303 - 07/04/20 09:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: greenladel]
    #26804424 - 07/04/20 11:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Evolution is change!

Therefore it follows the rules of entropy..

From one order to another of lesser order until it turns to nothing ex nihilo..!

Ex nihilo obeys the freemarket economy of the cartesian plane and its federal dynamics.. with in the government we declare the interest rate..


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26804506 - 07/05/20 01:13 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

This question does not really matter.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: greenladel]
    #26804654 - 07/05/20 06:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

greenladel said:
Quote:

sudly said:
What's one thing you don't believe about the theory?

I mean, when I was born I was open to all theories, and yet somehow I understand how the Sun works.




technically there is nothing i dont believe about the theory. you understand how the sun works because it is observable, but the distant past is not (yet?).




If one does observe the past, wouldn't they realise there should be no gap in our evolutionary history?

I mean, why would evolution have stopped?

That is one of the greatest curiosities to me, why someone would think that our ancestors evolved to their position, and then, that somehow the bridge between our ancestors and us wasn't built by evolution.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26804697 - 07/05/20 06:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
[...
If one does observe the past, wouldn't they realise there should be no gap in our evolutionary history?




the term evolution is unnecessary in this sentence ^^
Quote:

sudly said:
I mean, why would evolution have stopped?




for each person that exists, evolution is a non-issue, i.e. their phenotype has been established already, and their mutations have not killed them yet.
if they have children and grand children the mutations that are survived by those individuals may become significant in some future challenge, but until it becomes pivotal, it is just part of living.
Quote:

sudly said:
That is one of the greatest curiosities to me, why someone would think that our ancestors evolved to their position, and then, that somehow the bridge between our ancestors and us wasn't built by evolution.



here again you use the term evolution as an agent of change.
this is erroneous. evolution is the description of an overall ongoing resulting change of  processes extending from simple molecular biology (mutation) through embryology, development, health and maturity, sexual activity, reproduction and child rearing.

the continuity is heredity.

my inheritance stopped with me, but my children's inheritance stops with them. evolution is not visible at the scale of our lives.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26804718 - 07/05/20 07:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, no..  I'm talking about how our ape ancestors evolved sentient humanity.

I'm wondering if anyone is actually brazen enough to say this leap wasn't due to adaptation and evolution over time.

You and your children are irrelevant to this topic, I'm not talking about evolution in our lives. I'm talking about the leap from ancestral apes to sentient humans.

The million or so years it took.

Did evolution do it or not?


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Offlinegreenladel

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Re: Are you a shill? *DELETED* [Re: sudly]
    #26804723 - 07/05/20 07:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: greenladel]
    #26804729 - 07/05/20 07:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

greenladel said:
there are no apes in the human evolution path. that is a misunderstanding that people who do not understand the topic spread around.





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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26804928 - 07/05/20 10:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Yeah, no..  I'm talking about how our ape ancestors evolved sentient humanity.

I'm wondering if anyone is actually brazen enough to say this leap wasn't due to adaptation and evolution over time.

You and your children are irrelevant to this topic, I'm not talking about evolution in our lives. I'm talking about the leap from ancestral apes to sentient humans.

The million or so years it took.

Did evolution do it or not?



no leap at all.
sentient apes exist and existed,
sentient deer, sentient wolves, sentient hawks, sentient mice.

I am bewildered that you might think sentience is exclusive to humans.

living creatures have been sentient since before the notochord. even those of us with exoskeletons like bees and spiders have sentience.

Modern sentience begins with writing/drawing on walls and with the printing press, and while a huge cohort are not yet up on critical thinking or even reading, we are now contributing and rehashing our messages using ubiquitous hand held devices and personalized avatars.

the leaving of complex messages for others is very much a part of modern sentience.

however, prior to modern sentience, creatures left messages for each other using scent, carnage, scraps, and way markers (worn pathways or torn tree bark). Even foot prints are evidence of passage, and as such communicate aspects of that passage to those who would interpret - trackers, hunters, detectives.

sentience is not recent and not just among primates.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26805323 - 07/05/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

How do you think this modern sentience came about?

This thing that makes us more, adept, than our other sentient compadres.

Or even if it is really any fundamentally different.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26805497 - 07/05/20 03:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

So the question begs an answer..

Does evolution.. always increase levels of order on top of previous lesser orders..

Or is it simply a game of adaptation.. sometime going backwards, sometimes going forwards..

Backwards meaning lesser levels of order entropy..

Or does total information always increase!?


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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26805507 - 07/05/20 03:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Also another question.. :

Does being sentient gain you certain rites?

And is overlapping or disregarding those rites a figment of higher evolution or simply evil(out of orfer) behaviour?


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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26805556 - 07/05/20 03:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
So the question begs an answer..

Does evolution.. always increase levels of order on top of previous lesser orders..

Or is it simply a game of adaptation.. sometime going backwards, sometimes going forwards..

Backwards meaning lesser levels of order entropy..

Or does total information always increase!?





What do you think? I'm no good at physics terms so I can't really play along.

If energy is neither created nor destroyed in an ultimate sense, then I'd say evolution ultimately doesn't go any direction.

Sometimes I think the more informed our machines get, the less informed us humans get. Only so much to go around or something...


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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26805623 - 07/05/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Modern sentience, as opposed to the kind of sentience that has been common for millions of years, involves the shared synthesis of expression and impression, a form of play with meaning.

Many creatures can follow tracks in the mud, but for the 'modern' to kick in, the meaning of the tracks is something to play with: we can make fake tracks to lead a predator elsewhere,  or interpret them as other than they are.

Fabulation or invention is something that only a few species love to do. We make stories, and fit stories around facts, and tell stories of what we did, and what we want to try next.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26808293 - 07/07/20 05:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
So the question begs an answer..

Does evolution.. always increase levels of order on top of previous lesser orders..

Or is it simply a game of adaptation.. sometime going backwards, sometimes going forwards..

Backwards meaning lesser levels of order entropy..

Or does total information always increase!?




That sounds like its leading in to integrated information theory.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26808320 - 07/07/20 05:43 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Modern sentience, as opposed to the kind of sentience that has been common for millions of years, involves the shared synthesis of expression and impression, a form of play with meaning.

Many creatures can follow tracks in the mud, but for the 'modern' to kick in, the meaning of the tracks is something to play with: we can make fake tracks to lead a predator elsewhere,  or interpret them as other than they are.

Fabulation or invention is something that only a few species love to do. We make stories, and fit stories around facts, and tell stories of what we did, and what we want to try next.




Where within this lineage would you suggest modern sentience emerged?



I would suggest emergence around 2.5 million years ago, in the times of Homo habilis.



Quote:

Early Homo appears in East Africa, speciating from australopithecineancestors. Sophisticated stone toolsmark the beginning of the Lower Paleolithic. Australopithecus garhi was using stone tools at about 2.5 Ma.Homo habilis is the oldest species given the designation Homo, by Leakey et al. (1964)




Quote:

The way humans make and use tools is perhaps what sets our species apart more than anything else. Now scientists are more and more uncovering the forces that drove our lineage to our heights of tool use — and how tool use, in turn, might have influenced our evolution.

The first stone tools — the Oldowan

The ability to make and use tools dates back millions of years in our family tree. Chimpanzees, our closest living relatives, can on their own devise spear-like weapons for hunting and create specialized tool kits for foraging ants, suggesting our family tree may have possessed wooden tools since the ancestors of humans and chimps diverged some 4 million years ago.

The dawn of stone tools dates back some 2.6 million years to Gona in Ethiopia. Known as the Oldowan, these include not just fist-sized hunks of rock for pounding, but also the first known manufacture of stone tools — sharp flakes created by knapping, or striking a hard stone against quartz, obsidian, flint or any other rock whose flakes can hold an edge. At this time are also the oldest known butchered animal bones.

"So the hominids at this time, based on all the evidence that we have, had small australopithecine-sized brains, but nevertheless they figured out how to cut through often tough hide to efficiently get the meat off the bones and break the bones open for the marrow," said paleoanthropologist Henry Bunn at the University of Wisconsin at Madison.

This was the extent of the technology for nearly a million years. "It was probably very ad hoc — when you needed a stone tool and you didn't have one, just made one, then dropped it," said paleoanthropologist Thomas Wynn at University of Colorado at Colorado Springs.

Such technology is just slightly past the range of what apes generally do, Wynn added. Indeed, chimpanzees in the wild can use stones as simple tools for hammering, and the chimpanzee-like bonobo ape can even be taught how to flake stone to make cutting tools. "These don't seem to represent any great intellectual leap," he said.

The appearance of stone tools falls roughly in the middle of a drying trend in Africa between 2 million and 3 million years ago that would have presented our distant ancestors with a greater variety of habitats than they would have known before, such as woodlands to grasslands, explained paleoanthropologist Thomas Plummer at Queens College in New York. "Tools may have allowed hominids to be more adaptable, extract food from a greater range of areas," he said.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/7968-human-evolution-origin-tool.html




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
    #26808336 - 07/07/20 06:13 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

cave painting and any coordinated earthworks - certainly.

coordinated hunting and collaborative inhabitation - possibly if you go much further back to pre-mamalian.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26812142 - 07/09/20 05:34 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm still refering to the emergence of modern sentience. If coordinated hunting was considered the emergence of modern sentience, wild dogs, lions, wolves, tuna, dolphins etc would be the prototypical modern sentients a long time ago, and I think that criteria would broaden the scope a tad too much.

Cave paintings I would consider signs of modern sentience but not as signs of the emergence of modern sentience, since the earliest known or remaining cave paintings are only 40,000 years old, so that wouldn't go back far enough imo.

If by coordinated earthworks you mean use of stone tools, that too would come after the development of stone masonry, which in itself would be the point at which I'd consider modern sentience evidently emergent, 2.5 million years ago.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #26812172 - 07/09/20 06:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

maybe for this particular phase of anthropomorphic only sentience, continuity for the last 2.5 million makes sense.

although I think that other creatures with simpler bodies and less reliance on tools did achieve significant earthworks (beavers, ants, and millions of feathered nest builders) and yes coordinated hunting goes back much further to pre-mamalian.

we even see cross-species hunting collaborations among fish species:
Quote:

https://listverse.com/2015/02/23/10-amazing-cooperations-between-different-animal-species/
In the Red Sea, some groupers have learned to solicit assistance from morays. If a grouper’s quarry takes shelter where the grouper can’t reach, it will swim to a moray’s den. The grouper shakes its head rapidly right at the mouth of the crevice, drawing the moray out despite the daytime hour. The moray is then led by the grouper to wherever the prey is hiding, a spot which the grouper will sometimes indicate with more shaking.The moray then enters the hole and kills the prey. Sometimes, the moray then eats the prey itself, but other times it gives it to the grouper. This sort of cooperative hunting has never before been observed in two different species of fish. Marine biologists have noted sufficient variability in the groupers’ execution of moray leading to believe that it is in fact a learned behavior as opposed to instinct.




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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26812827 - 07/09/20 12:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Sure,
I think you would do well to distinguish the difference your trying to make between human animals & other animals.


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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26812986 - 07/09/20 01:50 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

man is the only animal that thinks he is not,
at least most men and women think they are significantly different from other animals, usually this does not work out that well unless others just accept the fact.
I am not helping create that illusion.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26813039 - 07/09/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I used to take that for granted in that I thought everyone knew we were animals, just like any other but unique in our own way.  But time & time again If it’s been brought up in conversation, someone gets highly offended or is adamantly denying it to no end.

I find that to be telling about someone’s views  The other day a family member was talking about how Chimps might be intelligent :smbfacepalm:  Because they could use basic tools.

I went on to list various animals & insects using similar examples to that which youve already shared.  They were quite taken aback - but I’m glad to say they acknowledged that - and that  they had simply not considered that intelligence was the norm, not the expectation.

Everyone’s naked all the time!


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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26813205 - 07/09/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

amazing!


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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26814269 - 07/10/20 04:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

noticed it would not be a negative time without it

so it was a positive time

it was amacement

at least


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