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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
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Quote:
greenladel said: there are no apes in the human evolution path. that is a misunderstanding that people who do not understand the topic spread around.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
#26804928 - 07/05/20 10:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Yeah, no.. I'm talking about how our ape ancestors evolved sentient humanity.
I'm wondering if anyone is actually brazen enough to say this leap wasn't due to adaptation and evolution over time.
You and your children are irrelevant to this topic, I'm not talking about evolution in our lives. I'm talking about the leap from ancestral apes to sentient humans.
The million or so years it took.
Did evolution do it or not?
no leap at all. sentient apes exist and existed, sentient deer, sentient wolves, sentient hawks, sentient mice.
I am bewildered that you might think sentience is exclusive to humans.
living creatures have been sentient since before the notochord. even those of us with exoskeletons like bees and spiders have sentience.
Modern sentience begins with writing/drawing on walls and with the printing press, and while a huge cohort are not yet up on critical thinking or even reading, we are now contributing and rehashing our messages using ubiquitous hand held devices and personalized avatars.
the leaving of complex messages for others is very much a part of modern sentience.
however, prior to modern sentience, creatures left messages for each other using scent, carnage, scraps, and way markers (worn pathways or torn tree bark). Even foot prints are evidence of passage, and as such communicate aspects of that passage to those who would interpret - trackers, hunters, detectives.
sentience is not recent and not just among primates.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
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How do you think this modern sentience came about?
This thing that makes us more, adept, than our other sentient compadres.
Or even if it is really any fundamentally different.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
#26805497 - 07/05/20 03:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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So the question begs an answer..
Does evolution.. always increase levels of order on top of previous lesser orders..
Or is it simply a game of adaptation.. sometime going backwards, sometimes going forwards..
Backwards meaning lesser levels of order entropy..
Or does total information always increase!?
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Also another question.. :
Does being sentient gain you certain rites?
And is overlapping or disregarding those rites a figment of higher evolution or simply evil(out of orfer) behaviour?
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: So the question begs an answer..
Does evolution.. always increase levels of order on top of previous lesser orders..
Or is it simply a game of adaptation.. sometime going backwards, sometimes going forwards..
Backwards meaning lesser levels of order entropy..
Or does total information always increase!?
What do you think? I'm no good at physics terms so I can't really play along.
If energy is neither created nor destroyed in an ultimate sense, then I'd say evolution ultimately doesn't go any direction.
Sometimes I think the more informed our machines get, the less informed us humans get. Only so much to go around or something...
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
#26805623 - 07/05/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Modern sentience, as opposed to the kind of sentience that has been common for millions of years, involves the shared synthesis of expression and impression, a form of play with meaning.
Many creatures can follow tracks in the mud, but for the 'modern' to kick in, the meaning of the tracks is something to play with: we can make fake tracks to lead a predator elsewhere, or interpret them as other than they are.
Fabulation or invention is something that only a few species love to do. We make stories, and fit stories around facts, and tell stories of what we did, and what we want to try next.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: So the question begs an answer..
Does evolution.. always increase levels of order on top of previous lesser orders..
Or is it simply a game of adaptation.. sometime going backwards, sometimes going forwards..
Backwards meaning lesser levels of order entropy..
Or does total information always increase!?
That sounds like its leading in to integrated information theory.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: Modern sentience, as opposed to the kind of sentience that has been common for millions of years, involves the shared synthesis of expression and impression, a form of play with meaning.
Many creatures can follow tracks in the mud, but for the 'modern' to kick in, the meaning of the tracks is something to play with: we can make fake tracks to lead a predator elsewhere, or interpret them as other than they are.
Fabulation or invention is something that only a few species love to do. We make stories, and fit stories around facts, and tell stories of what we did, and what we want to try next.
Where within this lineage would you suggest modern sentience emerged?

I would suggest emergence around 2.5 million years ago, in the times of Homo habilis.

Quote:
Early Homo appears in East Africa, speciating from australopithecineancestors. Sophisticated stone toolsmark the beginning of the Lower Paleolithic. Australopithecus garhi was using stone tools at about 2.5 Ma.Homo habilis is the oldest species given the designation Homo, by Leakey et al. (1964)
Quote:
The way humans make and use tools is perhaps what sets our species apart more than anything else. Now scientists are more and more uncovering the forces that drove our lineage to our heights of tool use — and how tool use, in turn, might have influenced our evolution.
The first stone tools — the Oldowan
The ability to make and use tools dates back millions of years in our family tree. Chimpanzees, our closest living relatives, can on their own devise spear-like weapons for hunting and create specialized tool kits for foraging ants, suggesting our family tree may have possessed wooden tools since the ancestors of humans and chimps diverged some 4 million years ago.
The dawn of stone tools dates back some 2.6 million years to Gona in Ethiopia. Known as the Oldowan, these include not just fist-sized hunks of rock for pounding, but also the first known manufacture of stone tools — sharp flakes created by knapping, or striking a hard stone against quartz, obsidian, flint or any other rock whose flakes can hold an edge. At this time are also the oldest known butchered animal bones.
"So the hominids at this time, based on all the evidence that we have, had small australopithecine-sized brains, but nevertheless they figured out how to cut through often tough hide to efficiently get the meat off the bones and break the bones open for the marrow," said paleoanthropologist Henry Bunn at the University of Wisconsin at Madison.
This was the extent of the technology for nearly a million years. "It was probably very ad hoc — when you needed a stone tool and you didn't have one, just made one, then dropped it," said paleoanthropologist Thomas Wynn at University of Colorado at Colorado Springs.
Such technology is just slightly past the range of what apes generally do, Wynn added. Indeed, chimpanzees in the wild can use stones as simple tools for hammering, and the chimpanzee-like bonobo ape can even be taught how to flake stone to make cutting tools. "These don't seem to represent any great intellectual leap," he said.
The appearance of stone tools falls roughly in the middle of a drying trend in Africa between 2 million and 3 million years ago that would have presented our distant ancestors with a greater variety of habitats than they would have known before, such as woodlands to grasslands, explained paleoanthropologist Thomas Plummer at Queens College in New York. "Tools may have allowed hominids to be more adaptable, extract food from a greater range of areas," he said.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/7968-human-evolution-origin-tool.html
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly]
#26808336 - 07/07/20 06:13 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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cave painting and any coordinated earthworks - certainly.
coordinated hunting and collaborative inhabitation - possibly if you go much further back to pre-mamalian.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
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I'm still refering to the emergence of modern sentience. If coordinated hunting was considered the emergence of modern sentience, wild dogs, lions, wolves, tuna, dolphins etc would be the prototypical modern sentients a long time ago, and I think that criteria would broaden the scope a tad too much.
Cave paintings I would consider signs of modern sentience but not as signs of the emergence of modern sentience, since the earliest known or remaining cave paintings are only 40,000 years old, so that wouldn't go back far enough imo.
If by coordinated earthworks you mean use of stone tools, that too would come after the development of stone masonry, which in itself would be the point at which I'd consider modern sentience evidently emergent, 2.5 million years ago.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Are you a shill? [Re: sudly] 1
#26812172 - 07/09/20 06:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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maybe for this particular phase of anthropomorphic only sentience, continuity for the last 2.5 million makes sense.
although I think that other creatures with simpler bodies and less reliance on tools did achieve significant earthworks (beavers, ants, and millions of feathered nest builders) and yes coordinated hunting goes back much further to pre-mamalian.
we even see cross-species hunting collaborations among fish species:
Quote:
https://listverse.com/2015/02/23/10-amazing-cooperations-between-different-animal-species/ In the Red Sea, some groupers have learned to solicit assistance from morays. If a grouper’s quarry takes shelter where the grouper can’t reach, it will swim to a moray’s den. The grouper shakes its head rapidly right at the mouth of the crevice, drawing the moray out despite the daytime hour. The moray is then led by the grouper to wherever the prey is hiding, a spot which the grouper will sometimes indicate with more shaking.The moray then enters the hole and kills the prey. Sometimes, the moray then eats the prey itself, but other times it gives it to the grouper. This sort of cooperative hunting has never before been observed in two different species of fish. Marine biologists have noted sufficient variability in the groupers’ execution of moray leading to believe that it is in fact a learned behavior as opposed to instinct.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Sure, I think you would do well to distinguish the difference your trying to make between human animals & other animals.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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man is the only animal that thinks he is not, at least most men and women think they are significantly different from other animals, usually this does not work out that well unless others just accept the fact. I am not helping create that illusion.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
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Loc: The Primordial Mind
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I used to take that for granted in that I thought everyone knew we were animals, just like any other but unique in our own way. But time & time again If it’s been brought up in conversation, someone gets highly offended or is adamantly denying it to no end.
I find that to be telling about someone’s views The other day a family member was talking about how Chimps might be intelligent Because they could use basic tools.
I went on to list various animals & insects using similar examples to that which youve already shared. They were quite taken aback - but I’m glad to say they acknowledged that - and that they had simply not considered that intelligence was the norm, not the expectation.
Everyone’s naked all the time!
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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amazing!
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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noticed it would not be a negative time without it
so it was a positive time
it was amacement
at least
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