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OfflineSN122A
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Registered: 10/09/09
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Any comprehensive studies of genetics and mycelium types etc?
    #26788738 - 06/28/20 02:28 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I guess I should preface with saying I remember old posts when I was last in the hobby 10 years ago on cycles of clone->spore->ms->clone etc (think it was workman with Mexicana or something?) showing the stabilisation of a variety into something until MS will yield reasonable certainty...

I guess the question is if you think about epigenetic research and genes triggering etc what are we losing in both that process and sector selection on agar?

There are obvious advantages in selectivity of say MEA + Rye + Straw throughout the cycle, likewise rizomorphic in cubes etc within the context of home cultivating... But what's the full story?

I can't help but think of the reasonably opportunistic nature of fungi in the wild and the possibility that we are excluding useful genetics without intending to...

Where I grew up there are Pans, Cubes etc and it's a VERY dry area, it might be 2-3 years between citing them so the environment is tuff. What tricks do fungi have won't don't understand yet? 

Anyone aware of research looking into this type of thing for fungi?

Any detailed experiments of novel substrates with large generic variance?  To see if a 'good producer' is relative to only specific substrate?

Anyone done tests on 'weak' sectors / isolates and found them favourable in another context (substrate or growth parameters etc)? 

ARE some of these environmental conditions as rigid as assumed/observed?

I can't help but look at what temperature spread brewers yeasts work in for example (as in different strains, all saccharomyces cerevisiae) from warm to quite cold with very different chemistry (bi-products like esters for example).

I have no background in biological sciences so apologies if this is all obvious.

Anyone else think 'domestication'  might be leaving out something amazing that's yet to be discovered?


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OfflineMycelial77
Philosophy New Senses

Registered: 05/28/17
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Re: Any comprehensive studies of genetics and mycelium types etc? [Re: SN122A]
    #26789951 - 06/28/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

đŸ¤”posting in order to access more info


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OfflineSN122A
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Re: Any comprehensive studies of genetics and mycelium types etc? [Re: Mycelial77]
    #26793001 - 06/29/20 07:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

No takers on possible disadvantages of 'domestication'?

Is this something very few people have done?

From what I see in cube growing posts for example is decades of only taking the fastest rhizomorphic sector; mainly on PDA / MEA (selective media). Then right along side everyone says genetics=potency... 

The question is that are our visually selected cultures the best it gets? 

What if one of those tiny sectors you pass up can colonise novel substrates or had superior alkaloid or polysaccharide profiles or is viable at hotter/colder temps?

From some of the papers looking at yeasts, moulds etc

"Epigenetic phenomena are defined by reversible heritable changes in gene expression in the absence of changes in DNA sequence."

"At the same time, the manipulation of chromatin structure in fungi promises to unlock previously untapped biochemical potential, for instance in the production of secondary metabolites."

Plant growers seem to selectively improve genetics over time, any obvious reason (besides time) we're not running small trials to do similar?

In the case is actives is it because without simple extraction methods things can't be quantified? I assume heaps of cannabis was simply smoked to decide if something 'seems stronger' (no idea sorry, I know nothing of weed)

In guessing growing out isolates and breeding is exactly what commercial edibles labs are doing?

In my brewing days people all over the world were capturing wild yeasts then doing trials on in varying 'worts', temperatures etc for novel traits and selectivity... Even changing wort recipes slowly to force the yeasts to 'adapt' (no doubt practical epigenetics in action)

I'm surprised this doesn't get more focus at the hobby level.

I would love an oyster that had 5x more healthy polysaccharides or a Hericium that fruits in warmer temps...  Or oysters that tasted similar to shiitake.

Even with actives it could be fun to tweak ratios of Baeocystin or similar other compounds of interest through selective breeding... "this variety is more body, another more visual etc"


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OfflineParacelso
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Registered: 11/28/18
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Re: Any comprehensive studies of genetics and mycelium types etc? [Re: SN122A]
    #26811398 - 07/08/20 05:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I have no idea the correct answer for this, but I believe we are for sure eliminating precious genes.

Shrooms grow on manure, with lots of competition with contamination. We've spoiled our mushrooms. They don't have those "fighting genes" anymore.

But, the fact that our "domesticated" mushrooms don't have to fight contaminants could be genetically good too. Because, if this organism doesn't need to spend energy with its survival, fighting other competitors, it can use that saved energy to spend on some other stuff, for example, potency or reproduction.

So, I think it's very hard to know the real difference between the genes from a "nature mushroom" and a "domesticated mushroom". But, I think we are exchanging "fighting genes" for more "free energy", and consequently, more potent mushrooms.


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OfflineSN122A
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Re: Any comprehensive studies of genetics and mycelium types etc? [Re: Paracelso] * 1
    #26844046 - 07/25/20 06:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

SO...  Some food for thought!

I did some agar work, down to an isolate (as best I can tell by mycelial mat and without genetics work).

Here is where it gets interesting... This isolate is very rhizo, all rope really on both MEA and DPA plates (and for a few generations; P5 in this instance, been stable a few plates now). 

Now a simple change like adding some carbon or trading dextrose for  glactose and the mycelium starts to grow differently like turning to a dense, slower growing tomentose for example.  Now transfer this back to MEA and its Rhizo again.

Clearly the first step in typical culturing is imposing selectivity due to the sugars, nutrients etc in the agar. Who really has any evidence that there ISN'T superior varieties of cubes for instance out there that don't like MEA or PDE, hell they might not even grow well on the grain spawn we all use...

Again I draw parallels to brewing.  IF you use a moderate amount of hops with capturing wild cultures you impose selectivity and there are certain organisms you might want that will be excluded at step 1.

An environment like dung, in a field, with complex varying weather etc not to mention dung types (like season variation in diet of grasses, gut microflora differences in the beast producing the dung etc and of course the random change of competitor organisms landing on the substrate) its obviously highly variable.

NOW... THOUGHT BUBBLE -> what if we are selecting inferior genetics (as in with respect to a trait we might prefer like production of certain compounds) right from the start (P1 / germination)?  All because of this visual bias to accepted norms (ie Rhizo in cubensis for example)...  Sure we get something that grows fast and flushed well but that 'super potent cube' remains illusive, or that hericium that fruits at 25C on weird woods like melaleuca.

I'm surprised not much has been done in this space when, by contrast, the evolution of weed I witnessed since I was a kid has been crazy; likewise with many food crops.

Any mycologist or microbiologist out there who can shed light on my theory-crafting?

Do commercial spawn labs and researches undergo exhaustive testing of any kind?  I assume many would just test different isolates on the industry standard spawn media and substrates?

Just for cubes alone I feel like I need an intimate understanding of the microorganisms and biochemistry present in dung to even begin meaningful experiments for that golden fleece.  With many exotics I wouldn't even know where to start, soils are crazy complex for example.

I've got wild prints of a few different things and think I'll just make this a long-running experiment out of my own curiosity...


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Offlinetrippleblack
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Re: Any comprehensive studies of genetics and mycelium types etc? [Re: SN122A]
    #26882331 - 08/15/20 08:28 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

There is certainly some research that has been published about the general makeup of different types of mycellium and why they switch back and fourth. 

I notice a distinct effect change as I bioassay the fruited isolates one by one around a petri.

I don't think we are missing out on a ton of gems by not going back and selecting for "bad" mycellium. the minerals the mycellium use to build itself uptake in different ratios; sometimes the mycellium will express itself a little different depending on charge. maybe this relates to stereochemistry.


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OfflineMoFx
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Re: Any comprehensive studies of genetics and mycelium types etc? [Re: SN122A]
    #27098063 - 12/19/20 04:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Had to make an account to stir the pot as this is a cool topic.
I think in order to be scientifically accurate regarding genetics. We would need genetic data. Genetic testing. Is that even allowed lol !!??

I can share some findings just for the sake of knowledge. This year I witnessed jars oscillate from rhizomes to tomentose. It appears to be from environment. I have seen it enough to propose it as a hypothesis.
Hypothesis :
T.v1 Tomentose is an effect akin to "turtling up" as a defense mechanism. 
T.v2 Tomentose is an effect brought about by how the mycelium is aware of nutrients vs moisture vs "some other microbe."
  Supporting observations:
-Jar of wheat nocc'd >> time passes, mycelium is happy & rhizo >> deep in the wheat berry a bacteria starts to bloom >> mycelium turns to tomentose.
-Jar of WBS >> oops ran out of water(mybad) >> it WAS rhizo >> out of 5 jars some bact got in 2 >> myc goes tomentose >> 
- THEN -  ( OOO we aint done YET )
I SPOON rescue the half colonized jars. All yee myc were turtled up... Now in a new empty jar by themselves. Let be....
>> prep new PF jars >>
Put THOSE rescues Straight into fresh PC'd PF jars..
AND  !!
AND !!
can you guess ??
Yes, they will begin to Rhizo eventually...
Eventually = Looks like they read if its safe. If safe = Rhizo. If not safe they stay tomentose.

From what I can see, the Rhizo strands are a way of going fast and thin. Which is totally opposed to tomentose which is thick like an impermeable wall.  ((side note: Have any of you guys also witnessed these mushies melt plastic ? Its some gas they release at a particular time. Melts the aquarium lid.))

Back to your original brain thoughts >> Wild strain ?? Wild strength ??
I took those bacteria jars, and PC'd them. Fuk the house reeked like gross. It's amazing how bact does NOT smell. Well, this particular bact was odorless until I cooked it. Then I put some rescues BACK in the dead bacteria jars and they took. Yes they colonized... 
Perhaps those survivors are stronger ?
I mentioned this story caz you seem concerned that we are breeding the strength out of the strains ... Is this something you are witnessing ? 

-- science is a process of collecting repeatable evidence.  Turning hunches and anecdotes into repeatable truth.  I think these special spores will evolve to whatever we push. grains or poo. As long as they survive and can adapt, they should contend to their challenges. Such is life.

I hear in cannabis, when they do genetic steering you don't get stable traits until far later. F5 or F7 . Plus, some genes don't express unless very specific criteria are met("the Blood"). So if you have wild spore strains I would bet they have far more variability than these common hobby strains.. pet strains? .. indoor pf strains ?? lol  In canna, the example is with short vs tall expression. A seed which is F7 and dominant short variety will pop a plant which is extremely likely to be short.  Personally I don't grow canna so I am only repeating stuff.  From what they say, in order to get a particular trait to become dominant you have to mate it in. Both parents have to be pushed into a certain trait being stable. They do that by culling the non-preferred and making the environment selective for THAT trait... Rinse and repeat...  Just like when we are advised to clone the phatty :smile: 
However, if the mating takes place IN THE mycelium, then how would we select ? caz the fruits would already be 'selected.' hmmmmm... I guess that is similar, except WE are not steering.

Thats all I got for now ...

I think the way to get a dormant gene to express is to provide enough stress that the mycelium goes on alert/battlemode AND it wins. Rather than a battle it cannot win... Theoretically the spores should contain the story about how mom and dad survived. (Maybe the mycelium will too?) We won't know until an experiment is carried out.
Consider :
- Happy go lucky colonizes half a jar in 10 days
- Happy go lucky meets challenge >> takes another 30 to finish jar
Happy go lucky gets to the finish line and drops spores...
Then Happy go luckys' kids:
- Kid killa colonizes half jar in 10 days (same)
- Kid killa meets same challenge pops did >> Finishes the jar in 10 days
If that experiment was a real event then the science data would have N=1.

  ___---___ Ja kno wha time sayin' __---__


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