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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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"Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right"
    #26787297 - 06/27/20 12:29 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Many people here have argued the establishment left and establishment right are one and the same.  Their primary goal is to support the super wealthy.  Their differences are typically non-monetary and relatively inconsequential to the billionaire class.

Meanwhile, the populist left and the populist right, whose primary concern is the 99%, are growing in popularity.


Glenn Greenwald wrote an excellent article on whether the populist left should work with the populist right where they have common ground.

Quote:

Along with vehement differences, there is ample agreement on specific, consequential issues between the factions that identify as the “populist left” and “populist right.” Often there is more agreement between them than either group finds with the establishment wing of the political party with which they most identify.




I find myself in that category, where I'd rather vote for a populist right candidate than an establishment left candidate.


In fact, I learned from the article that Saagar Enjeti (who co-hosts Rising with Krystal Ball) is a right wing populist.  I always thought he was left wing because we share so many common views.


Maybe we need a new "Populist" party?  Thoughts???


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26787699 - 06/27/20 03:50 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

How about a candidate that made sense on either side?  That's what we need.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #26787738 - 06/27/20 04:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I find myself in that category, where I'd rather vote for a populist right candidate than an establishment left candidate.



And that - no hyperbole here - is how you get fascism.


I have a lot to say about populism but I'll start by addressing the crux of the article you linked. The proposition in question: "But none of those serious divergences negates the fact that the left — which does not come close to claiming a majority of the population — finds common ground with the populist faction of the right on some of its most important political positions." I submit that this proposition is false.  Populists differ in how 'the people' are defined, but it can be based along class, ethnic, or national lines. I am not aware of any active example of right-wing populism that doesn't define 'the people' along ethnic and/or national lines. It doesn't matter if left-wing populism and right-wing populism both agree on what 'the people' deserve, if they disagree on who 'the people' fundamentally are. That isn't an 'agree to disagree' situation, but it seems the article merely glosses over this with a single sentence mentioning "racially divisive rhetoric". No amount of increased political power validates abandoning our friends and allies. Ever. Full stop.

The next question then goes: "And if holding pernicious views renders those on the populist right radioactive and off-limits, why is the same not true of establishment Democrats[...]?" Clearly there is a difference in the rhetoric of Republicans and Democrats so it shouldn't be confusing why one could be considered off-limits to many but not the other. Liberals prefer racismlite™. My personal answer is that the dilemma between allying with centrist establishment (because let's not kid ourselves about the Democratic party here) or right-wing populism is a false dichotomy. Fed up with the establishment? Maybe try organizing with your local anarchists before voting for another Trump or Bolsonaro.

But really this whole OP begs the question - forget left and right for the moment - why are we taking it for granted that populist leaders are beneficial rulers in the first place? Take the response to covid-19 for example: countries with populist leaders seem to have been handling the pandemic much worse - I'm talking order of magnitude worse. Brasil and the USA are currently responsible for nearly half of globally reported daily new infections; is this mere coincidence?

The Populist Harm to Democracy: An Empirical Assessment

Quote:

The first report in this series reviewed the extensive literature that addresses how to define populism and concluded that populists are united by two fundamental claims:
  • Elites and ‘outsiders’ are working against the interests of the ‘true people’.
  • Populists are the voice of the ‘true people’ of a country and nothing should stand in their way.

This conceptualisation of populism captures both its anti-elite orientation and its distinctive mode of political organisation, which involves bulldozing over political and civil-society institutions in the name of enacting the popular will.




Quote:

The paper finds that populist rule—whether from the right or the left—has a highly negative effect on political systems and leads to a significant risk of democratic erosion.

Key Findings
  • Populists last longer in office. On average, populist leaders stay in office twice as long as democratically elected leaders who are not populist. Populists are also nearly five times more likely than non-populists to survive in office for over ten years.

  • Populists often leave office in dramatic circumstances. Only 34 per cent of populist leaders leave office after free and fair elections or because they respect term limits. A much larger number are forced to resign or are impeached, or do not leave office at all.

  • Populists are far more likely to damage democracy. Overall, 23 per cent of populists cause significant democratic backsliding, compared with 6 per cent of non-populist democratically elected leaders. In other words, populist governments are about four times more likely than non-populist ones to harm democratic institutions.
     
  • Populists frequently erode checks and balances on the executive. Over 50 per cent of populist leaders amend or rewrite their countries’ constitutions, and many of these changes extend term limits or weaken checks on executive power. The evidence also suggests that populists’ attacks on the rule of law open the way to greater corruption: 40 per cent of populist leaders are indicted on corruption charges, and the countries they lead experience significant drops in international corruption rankings.
     
  • Populists attack individual rights. Under populist rule, freedom of the press falls by some 7 per cent, civil liberties by 8 per cent and political rights by 13 per cent.






Your enthusiasm for populist leaders is well-known on this forum. Given the above, perhaps you will take the time now to explain why?


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26787797 - 06/27/20 04:48 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Is there even a populist left?


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Asante]
    #26787811 - 06/27/20 04:55 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Theoretically populism could be anywhere on the political spectrum, but I can't think of any American left wing populists since Eugene Debs.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26787850 - 06/27/20 05:19 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I feel like Democrats are really closet Greens and Republicans are closet Libertarians who have been brought in and sold on the current duopoly that has risen to the level of a joke in the words of Vermin Supreme.  Hashtag we are in on the joke.  Ha ha

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Asante]
    #26787898 - 06/27/20 05:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Is there even a populist left?



The study I linked identified 46 populist leaders or political parties that have been in power across 33 democratic countries between 1990 and 2018 (so no Bolsonaro yet); 13 right-wing, 15 left-wing, 17 third-positionist. It looks like most of the "Socio-economic" populist governments would fall under the left-wing umbrella.

The entire report is worth a read if the topic interests.

Quote:

  • Argentina; Carlos Menem; 1989–1999; Anti-establishment
  • Argentina; Néstor Kirchner; 2003–2007; Socio-economic
  • Argentina; Cristina Fernández de Kirchner; 2007–2015; Socio-economic
  • Belarus; Alexander Lukashenko; 1994–; Anti-establishment
  • Bolivia; Evo Morales; 2006–; Socio-economic
  • Brazil; Fernando Collor de Mello; 1990–1992; Anti-establishment
  • Bulgaria; Boyko Borisov; 2009–2013, 2014–2017, 2017–; Anti-establishment
  • Czech Republic; Miloš Zeman; 1998–2002; Anti-establishment
  • Czech Republic; Andrej Babiš; 2017–; Anti-establishment
  • Ecuador; Abdalá Bucaram; 1996–1997; Socio-economic
  • Ecuador; Lucio Gutiérrez; 2003–2005; Socio-economic
  • Ecuador; Rafael Correa; 2007–2017; Socio-economic
  • Georgia; Mikheil Saakashvili; 2004–2007, 2008–2013; Anti-establishment
  • Greece; Syriza; 2015–; Socio-economic
  • Hungary; Viktor Orbán; 1998–2002, 2010–; Cultural
  • India; Narendra Modi; 2014–; Cultural
  • Indonesia; Joko Widodo; 2014–; Anti-establishment
  • Israel; Benjamin Netanyahu; 1996–1999, 2009–; Cultural
  • Italy; Silvio Berlusconi; 1994–1995, 2001–2006, 2008–2011, 2013; Anti-establishment
  • Italy; Five Star Movement/League coalition; 2018–; Anti-establishment
  • Japan; Junichiro Koizumi; 2001–2006; Anti-establishment
  • Macedonia; Nikola Gruevski; 2006–2016; Cultural
  • Nicaragua; Daniel Ortega; 2007–; Socio-economic
  • Paraguay; Fernando Lugo; 2008–2012; Socio-economic
  • Peru; Alberto Fujimori; 1990–2000; Anti-establishment
  • Philippines; Joseph Estrada; 1998–2001; Anti-establishment
  • Philippines; Rodrigo Duterte; 2016–; Cultural
  • Poland; Lech Walesa; 1990–1995; Anti-establishment
  • Poland; Law and Justice party; 2005–2010, 2015–; Cultural
  • Romania; Traian Basescu; 2004–2014; Anti-establishment
  • Russia; Vladimir Putin; 2000–; Cultural
  • Serbia; Aleksandar Vucic; 2014–2017, 2017–; Cultural
  • Slovakia; Vladimír Meciar; 1990–1998; Cultural
  • Slovakia; Robert Fico; 2006–2010, 2012–2018; Cultural
  • South Africa; Jacob Zuma; 2009–2018; Socio-economic
  • Sri Lanka; Mahinda Rajapaksa; 2005–2015, 2018–; Cultural
  • Taiwan; Chen Shui-bian; 2000–2008; Anti-establishment
  • Thailand; Thaksin Shinawatra; 2001–2006; Socio-economic
  • Thailand; Yingluck Shinawatra; 2011–2014; Socio-economic
  • Turkey; Recep Tayyip Erdogan; 2003–; Cultural
  • United States; Donald Trump; 2017–; Cultural
  • Venezuela; Rafael Caldera; 1994–1999; Anti-establishment
  • Venezuela; Hugo Chávez; 1999–2013; Socio-economic
  • Venezuela; Nicolás Maduro; 2013–; Socio-economic
  • Zambia; Michael Sata; 2011–2014; Socio-economic





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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26788430 - 06/27/20 10:27 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

It appears we have two very different views of what populism is.

Saagar Enjeti is Indian, and I've never once heard him say/imply 'the people' are the whites, blacks, Indians, or whatever.

How I'm sure we have different definitions is this:

"On average, populist leaders stay in office twice as long as democratically elected leaders who are not populist...."

We're talking about two different things here, and I apologize if 'populist' has other meanings that I wasn't yet aware of.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26788573 - 06/28/20 12:19 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

That quote isn't to imply that populist leaders are not democratically elected - quite the opposite, the study specifically looked at populist governments only from nations considered functioning democracies. The report itself goes into more detail - read it like this :"On average, [democratically elected] populist leaders stay in office twice as long as democratically elected leaders who are not populist... "

But even so, what of it? Are you not going to bother providing your own contrasting definition for populism in response? Just like that discussions over?

What part of my supplied definition do you disagree with? Was it the first part: "Elites and ‘outsiders’ are working against the interests of the ‘true people’," if so perhaps you could clarify what the anti-establishment sentiment in your OP instead refers to? Or was it the second part: "Populists are the voice of the ‘true people’ of a country and nothing should stand in their way," if so can you explain the observed tendency for political and civil-society institutions to compromised in the name of enacting the popular will?

As for that Saagar Enjeti red herring - I specifically said right-wing populism "define[s] 'the people' along ethnic and/or national lines" - nowhere did I imply explicit racism was a prerequisite. Furthermore, if you take a look at the basic description for cultural populism (the type you currently have in the USA) you will read: "Cultural populism claims that the true people are the native members of the nation-state, and outsiders can include immigrants, criminals, ethnic and religious minorities, and cosmopolitan elites. Cultural populism tends to emphasise religious traditionalism, law and order, sovereignty, and painting migrants as enemies." Do you still think his published viewpoints don't fit much of that description?

Obviously you were interested enough in your (first?) encounter with populism that you made this thread, and many of the world leaders you quite often defend on this forum find themselves on that list above of populist leaders - so clearly you have an affinity for the ideology. The two studies I linked (one in each prior post) are excellent empirical studies on the topic. You weren't aware of the definition of populist before making this thread? Well take the opportunity to read those reports and then maybe we'll be able to continue this conversation.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26788857 - 06/28/20 04:02 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I think populism has a similar problem as libertarianism with consensus on what it means.

I'm not at all optimistic about left and right populists working together, or left and right non-populists working together.  Everything I say here is in reference to the U.S. In the 21st century we have very little experience with people working together on one issue for the common good, then going their separate ways. What we have is two separate armies, in combat.

The left is wed to identity politics and the right abhors it. That makes compromise problematic. If populism is being against elites, then populism is about social class. Some people think class is the primary distinction. Other people think class, race, gender, sexual orientation, age, etc. are all primary. I'm in the second group. 

I'm having a memory lapse right now, and I can't think of that political mechanism that you favor, and I agree with. The one about deciding on single issues, rather than having many loaded together in one bill. The thing is, there is a reason why the power structure has not allowed that and I doubt that will change. I think that's the crucial stumbling block to what you are proposing. I may be wrong but I think the conservatives and centrists are against that mechanism because it would lead to socialism, and incrementally, it would. 

Right now, despite Bernie Sanders falling in the primaries, the movement is making definite inroads in the political system, and that's encouraging, but all I see is more polarization.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26788866 - 06/28/20 04:11 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry, I meant that as a response to FalconW


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26788925 - 06/28/20 05:31 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you.

I just realized that the Occupy movement's battle of the 99% against the 1% by nature is populism.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Asante] * 1
    #26789202 - 06/28/20 08:39 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

If populism in the US were to unite the left and right, and simultaneously value citizenship at the same time, why would anyone find that problematic? 

I'm really not too worried if migrants/illegals find that makes them feel like "outsiders". If populism brings economic nationalism, it benefits both the left and right. I'm not going to concern myself with someone with some religious viewpoint that isn't in the majority. As an atheist, I could give two shits about the affects of populism and religious minorities, it's silly paranoia in my opinion.

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Asante] * 1
    #26789211 - 06/28/20 08:41 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Thank you.

I just realized that the Occupy movement's battle of the 99% against the 1% by nature is populism.




Yes, economic nationalism unites the working class regardless of race, religion, ethnicity and other factors.

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman]
    #26789217 - 06/28/20 08:42 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Rightwing populism all too often amounts to racism though.

We, the people, except the foillowing list of minorities.

Rightwing populism: "We the people say that immigrants arent us, the people."


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman] * 2
    #26789377 - 06/28/20 09:52 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
If populism in the US were to unite the left and right, and simultaneously value citizenship at the same time, why would anyone find that problematic? 

I'm really not too worried if migrants/illegals find that makes them feel like "outsiders".





Looks like you answered your own question there bud.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26789406 - 06/28/20 10:06 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I think populism has a similar problem as libertarianism with consensus on what it means.




It is indeed a nebulous term, which is why agreeing on the definition is essential before we can hold a discussion. If you didn't already check it out, this report titled "Populists in Power Around the World" provides the best attempt at answering that question that I was able to find:

Quote:

This first report has a more modest goal: to define populism from a global perspective and identify some of its key trends since 1990. Only with a clear and systematic understanding of the phenomenon can political leaders begin to offer meaningful and credible alternatives to populism.

Reaching this clear and systematic understanding, however, is easier said than done. Even among the community of populism experts, there are disagreements about how to define populism and which actors qualify as populists. This report puts forward a simple definition of populism and relies on a wealth of academic and expert knowledge to identify cases of populism around the world, seeking to cover those cases on which there is the most consensus. Yet, any effort that did not acknowledge significant difficulty and uncertainty in such an endeavour would be insincere.




I recommend you read the entire report (and the follow-up report "The Populist Harm to Democracy: An Empirical Assessment") because they are full of interesting and relevant information, as well as the methodology behind their conclusions.

The essential definition of populism that they arrive at:
Quote:

Populism contains two primary claims:
  • A country’s ‘true people’ are locked into conflict with outsiders, including establishment elites.
  • Nothing should constrain the will of the true people.





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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Asante]
    #26789486 - 06/28/20 10:39 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Thank you.

I just realized that the Occupy movement's battle of the 99% against the 1% by nature is populism.



The Occupy movement undoubtedly had populist tendencies, but it also had significant anarchist tendencies. Populism is a statist ideology - identifying the People as the source of state power and the idea that the state should act in its interests - but until the physical occupations ended, the Occupy movement favoured non-hierarchical direct democracy rather than representative government.

There's a great book about how the Occupy movement introduced anarchist ideas into mainstream protest culture that I highly recommend as the best history on the movement. Anarcho-populism involves the translation into a popular vernacular of typical anarchist themes, and the adoption of a language that can make anti-authoritarianism and anti-statism resonant at the time of a financial crisis. That was the Occupy movement until it was removed from the streets and relegated to social media.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman]
    #26789746 - 06/28/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
If populism in the US were to unite the left and right, and simultaneously value citizenship at the same time, why would anyone find that problematic? 

I'm really not too worried if migrants/illegals find that makes them feel like "outsiders". If populism brings economic nationalism, it benefits both the left and right. I'm not going to concern myself with someone with some religious viewpoint that isn't in the majority. As an atheist, I could give two shits about the affects of populism and religious minorities, it's silly paranoia in my opinion.




A lot of people on the left would find that problematic.

I am on the exact page as you on religion. The left is mostly pro-immigration. This will be more so as Bernie fades into elder statesman and AOC takes over symbolic leadership of the progressive left, which I think has already happened. Economic nationalism is not a label that will work with them. We equate that with racism. The American left does not draw the line at national borders. If that is a barrier it will remain one.

There are left populist leaders in Eastern Europe with strong platforms on limiting immigration. There is no one here of prominence advocating that, at least nobody on the left.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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Offlineqman
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26789781 - 06/28/20 01:00 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

qman said:
If populism in the US were to unite the left and right, and simultaneously value citizenship at the same time, why would anyone find that problematic? 

I'm really not too worried if migrants/illegals find that makes them feel like "outsiders". If populism brings economic nationalism, it benefits both the left and right. I'm not going to concern myself with someone with some religious viewpoint that isn't in the majority. As an atheist, I could give two shits about the affects of populism and religious minorities, it's silly paranoia in my opinion.




A lot of people on the left would find that problematic.

I am on the exact page as you on religion. The left is mostly pro-immigration. This will be more so as Bernie fades into elder statesman and AOC takes over symbolic leadership of the progressive left, which I think has already happened. Economic nationalism is not a label that will work with them. We equate that with racism. The American left does not draw the line at national borders. If that is a barrier it will remain one.

There are left populist leaders in Eastern Europe with strong platforms on limiting immigration. There is no one here of prominence advocating that, at least nobody on the left.




And that's why the left will continue to fail US citizens regardless of who's in office.

The Elite have convinced the left that immigration is a great social-economic policy despite the fact it clearly isn't for the working class.

AOC has already proven she's a representative of the corporate elite every chance she gets.  I predicted over a year ago that was going to happen, fuck AOC and her sellout agenda.

Economic nationalism should work for anyone regardless of their demographic, it's only problematic when you represent corporate interests.

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman] * 1
    #26789795 - 06/28/20 01:06 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Nationalism deserves less respect than corporatism.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26789955 - 06/28/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Nationalism deserves less respect than corporatism.




Keep on begging corporatism for Medicare For All and a reduction in wealth/income inequality and see what happens.  You'll be in the same spot or even a worse state of affairs.

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman]
    #26790286 - 06/28/20 04:28 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
And that's why the left will continue to fail US citizens regardless of who's in office.

The Elite have convinced the left that immigration is a great social-economic policy despite the fact it clearly isn't for the working class.

AOC has already proven she's a representative of the corporate elite every chance she gets.  I predicted over a year ago that was going to happen, fuck AOC and her sellout agenda.

Economic nationalism should work for anyone regardless of their demographic, it's only problematic when you represent corporate interests.



International solidarity is one of the foundational positions of left-wing politics. Ethics aside, going all the way back to Marx and Engels there's been a clear argument that economic class, rather than nationality, ethnicity, or culture, is the main force which divides people in society, and that nationalist ideology is a propaganda tool of a society's dominant economic class.

I know that your economic nationalism holds a similar critique of ethnicity and culture, so can you explain why you don't extend that critique to nationality as well? You've probably already answered this in the past but I can't recall.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman] * 1
    #26790685 - 06/28/20 06:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Nationalism deserves less respect than corporatism.




Keep on begging corporatism for Medicare For All and a reduction in wealth/income inequality and see what happens.  You'll be in the same spot or even a worse state of affairs.




Capitalism is global buddy. The sooner you accept that the sooner you can stop pretending that trying to make things better in this country won’t just result in capital moving what’s left of their money overseas.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman]
    #26791567 - 06/29/20 07:56 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

At least you didn't call her a whore again.


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26791769 - 06/29/20 10:11 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

qman said:
And that's why the left will continue to fail US citizens regardless of who's in office.

The Elite have convinced the left that immigration is a great social-economic policy despite the fact it clearly isn't for the working class.

AOC has already proven she's a representative of the corporate elite every chance she gets.  I predicted over a year ago that was going to happen, fuck AOC and her sellout agenda.

Economic nationalism should work for anyone regardless of their demographic, it's only problematic when you represent corporate interests.



International solidarity is one of the foundational positions of left-wing politics. Ethics aside, going all the way back to Marx and Engels there's been a clear argument that economic class, rather than nationality, ethnicity, or culture, is the main force which divides people in society, and that nationalist ideology is a propaganda tool of a society's dominant economic class.

I know that your economic nationalism holds a similar critique of ethnicity and culture, so can you explain why you don't extend that critique to nationality as well? You've probably already answered this in the past but I can't recall.




If the criticism of economic nationalism is that it doesn't embrace an international solidarity, I'm perfectly fine with that outcome. The fact that economic nationalism might potentially benefit natives of all demographics as opposed to foreigners and The Elite of the US is something I can live with. In fact, it's something people in other nations can embrace in their own economies.

I agree that nationalism can be abused by the ruling class for their own benefit, but economic nationalism doesn't have any benefits for The Elite if applied properly. I view nationalism rooted in ideology and economic nationalistic policies are two separate concepts.

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26791778 - 06/29/20 10:14 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Nationalism deserves less respect than corporatism.




Keep on begging corporatism for Medicare For All and a reduction in wealth/income inequality and see what happens.  You'll be in the same spot or even a worse state of affairs.




Capitalism is global buddy. The sooner you accept that the sooner you can stop pretending that trying to make things better in this country won’t just result in capital moving what’s left of their money overseas.




I respect that viewpoint and it doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposal. Reversing some of the existing economic policies doesn't necessarily mean capital exits the US for some other market. In fact, some could argue it could even attract more capital in certain circumstances.

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26791781 - 06/29/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
At least you didn't call her a whore again.




You mean political whore, which she clearly is today.

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman] * 1
    #26791870 - 06/29/20 11:10 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I think you should read some theory and develop a larger critique of the system as a whole. This piecemeal nibbling around the edges just ignores the systemic problems itself. It’s no different than the liberals thinking removing some statues will solve racism.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26791888 - 06/29/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Are you not going to bother providing your own contrasting definition for populism in response? Just like that discussions over?



I did in the OP.  I said the populist left and the populist right's primary concern is the 99%, not ethnicity, or whatever you thought it was.  I can assure you Trump and Bolsonaro aren't about the 99% (populism in my mind isn't the same as popularity).

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Obviously you were interested enough in your (first?) encounter with populism that you made this thread, and many of the world leaders you quite often defend on this forum find themselves on that list above of populist leaders - so clearly you have an affinity for the ideology.



Can you tell me which world leaders you are talking about?  I've defended Putin and Maduro from make believe, but that doesn't mean I support them (see my signature).

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
You weren't aware of the definition of populist before making this thread? Well take the opportunity to read those reports and then maybe we'll be able to continue this conversation.



Sure, I'll take a look at those.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26792028 - 06/29/20 12:50 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I said the populist left and the populist right's primary concern is the 99%, not ethnicity




lol come on man


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26792047 - 06/29/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I apologized for 'populist' having other meanings.  :shrug:

There are many things the left and many on the right (obviously not all) agree on, such as universal health care, raising the minimum wage, and not getting into wars of aggression (those were taken from the article in the OP).


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26792059 - 06/29/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

What are you defining as the populist right?


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26792064 - 06/29/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I think you should read some theory and develop a larger critique of the system as a whole. This piecemeal nibbling around the edges just ignores the systemic problems itself. It’s no different than the liberals thinking removing some statues will solve racism.




Oh, trust me. Some of my ideas for economic nationalism would NOT set very well with the current "capitalists".  Restructuring tax codes, currencies, asset classes and the distribution of wealth wouldn't resemble anything we see today.

So yeah, the "capitalists" could seek better conditions in Russia, China or some other place, and my answer would be 'good luck with that'.

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26792080 - 06/29/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What are you defining as the populist right?



People like Saagar Enjeti, Tucker Carlson, and even qman.  They all predominantly agree that certain establishment values such as the prison state, the drug war, regime change wars, support for Israeli aggression, etc. are not good.


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman]
    #26792126 - 06/29/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I think you should read some theory and develop a larger critique of the system as a whole. This piecemeal nibbling around the edges just ignores the systemic problems itself. It’s no different than the liberals thinking removing some statues will solve racism.




Oh, trust me. Some of my ideas for economic nationalism would NOT set very well with the current "capitalists".  Restructuring tax codes, currencies, asset classes and the distribution of wealth wouldn't resemble anything we see today.

So yeah, the "capitalists" could seek better conditions in Russia, China or some other place, and my answer would be 'good luck with that'.





So what? Doesn’t change anything I said.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26792130 - 06/29/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What are you defining as the populist right?



People like Saagar Enjeti, Tucker Carlson, and even qman.  They all predominantly agree that certain establishment values such as the prison state, the drug war, regime change wars, support for Israeli aggression, etc. are not good.




You don’t think Tucker Carlson is concerned with ethnicity?


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26792148 - 06/29/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Of course he is, and that's why I generally don't like him.  But I agree with him on a lot of other issues and have posted dozens of his videos.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26792151 - 06/29/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Ok so claiming that the populist right doesn’t really care about race isn’t accurate.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26792161 - 06/29/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I guess what I was trying to say is we should have a party that is anti-establishment that focuses on the things both sides can agree on, and largely ignore other things.

We can't agree on the 2nd amendment?  Let's leave that alone.  We can't agree on gay marriage?  Let's leave that alone.  We can't agree on whether or not to take statues down?  Let's leave that alone.

We can agree on economic things that help everyone but the super rich?  Let's get it done!  :shrug:


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #26792192 - 06/29/20 02:07 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Sure but like shiva noted, that’s how you get fascism. The right co opts leftist language and uses it to consolidate power. It’s no accident that Carlson, Enjeti, and others have begun ceding ground to leftist rhetoric. This isn’t due to a sudden change in heart, it’s because the right wing sees a generational crisis on the horizon and they know they’ll stop getting the votes they need if they don’t make some concessions.

If you asked me how to define the populist right I’d give two examples: the tea party and the trump 2016 campaign. Two phenomena grounded in lies and expanded with big money, and largely powered by race issues.

Look I’m all for Bernie teaming up with Republicans in the Senate to stop the war in yemen, because that’s the game in DC. But I’m not for this proposed team-up with racists and fascists in the hopes it gets us a healthcare expansion or a reduction in defense spending, because right now the right is only paying lip service to these ideals in order to claw their way back into electoral viability.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Asante] * 1
    #26792519 - 06/29/20 03:50 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Is there even a populist left?





Bernie Sanders

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Babylon]
    #26794097 - 06/30/20 09:33 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

He is populist, but not quite popular enough.

Back to the original premise, I can't think of anybody on the right who has ever been for the lower 99%.


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26794137 - 06/30/20 09:56 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I named a handful.  I agree that most conservatives (and democrats) still prefer establishment candidates.


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26794252 - 06/30/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

For me to consider someone a populist, they have to be, among other things, popular. So I see a difference between populists, and some writers I don't know who advocate populism. I realize other people don't see it that way.

I would say Huey Long, Eugene Debs, Hitler, Trump and Bernie Sanders are examples. Hitler and Trump perverted their stated ideals; I'm not sure about Long.


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26794272 - 06/30/20 10:52 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, I agreed to early on there seems to be multiple definitions.  I thought it was someone who advocates for the common man over the billionaire, but no one wants to accept that definition, so I'll back away from this discussion.


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #26794360 - 06/30/20 11:36 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Sure but like shiva noted, that’s how you get fascism. The right co opts leftist language and uses it to consolidate power. It’s no accident that Carlson, Enjeti, and others have begun ceding ground to leftist rhetoric. This isn’t due to a sudden change in heart, it’s because the right wing sees a generational crisis on the horizon and they know they’ll stop getting the votes they need if they don’t make some concessions.

If you asked me how to define the populist right I’d give two examples: the tea party and the trump 2016 campaign. Two phenomena grounded in lies and expanded with big money, and largely powered by race issues.

Look I’m all for Bernie teaming up with Republicans in the Senate to stop the war in yemen, because that’s the game in DC. But I’m not for this proposed team-up with racists and fascists in the hopes it gets us a healthcare expansion or a reduction in defense spending, because right now the right is only paying lip service to these ideals in order to claw their way back into electoral viability.




The Tea Party wasn't populism at all in my opinion. It was a call for fiscal austerity and nothing more. Who was going to benefit from that fiscal austerity? The Elite of course, that's wasn't a populism movement at all.

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman]
    #26794369 - 06/30/20 11:41 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

:whathesaid:


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman]
    #26794605 - 06/30/20 01:44 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
International solidarity is one of the foundational positions of left-wing politics. Ethics aside, going all the way back to Marx and Engels there's been a clear argument that economic class, rather than nationality, ethnicity, or culture, is the main force which divides people in society, and that nationalist ideology is a propaganda tool of a society's dominant economic class.

I know that your economic nationalism holds a similar critique of ethnicity and culture, so can you explain why you don't extend that critique to nationality as well? You've probably already answered this in the past but I can't recall.




If the criticism of economic nationalism is that it doesn't embrace an international solidarity, I'm perfectly fine with that outcome. The fact that economic nationalism might potentially benefit natives of all demographics as opposed to foreigners and The Elite of the US is something I can live with. In fact, it's something people in other nations can embrace in their own economies.

I agree that nationalism can be abused by the ruling class for their own benefit, but economic nationalism doesn't have any benefits for The Elite if applied properly. I view nationalism rooted in ideology and economic nationalistic policies are two separate concepts.



Sure, you may be perfectly fine with that outcome but if you want the many people who are not perfectly fine with the 'othering' of foreigners to seriously consider economic nationalism, you will have to address the concerns directly.

You consider economic nationalistic policies as distinct from nationalism, so make that case. Showing the benefits of economic policies that favour nationalism without disparaging the foreign 'other' would go far in distancing your views from ideological nationalism; because if we remove any notions of supremacy from the nationalism - "it's something people in other nations can embrace in their own economies" - than we should be able to make the case for it on merit, without having to rely on an outside threat motivator.

One of my major criticism is that national economies seems like an arbitrary middle-ground between global and local economies - especially when we consider the incredible variation in 200 or so presently existing countries. Do you have an argument to support this distinction?

Final point: you may be correct that - if applied properly - economic nationalism doesn't have any benefits to The Elite but that's a big if. You're talking to an anarchist here, I believe human systems of organization are inherently prone to corruption - and that nationalism (of any sort) is inherently prone to corruption for the same reasons. This is more a criticism of  hierarchical political structuring in general but it still applies - how do we prevent economic nationalism from fueling ideological nationalism that can then be used by The Elite to - say - start another war?


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26794659 - 06/30/20 02:15 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Are you not going to bother providing your own contrasting definition for populism in response? Just like that discussions over?



I did in the OP.  I said the populist left and the populist right's primary concern is the 99%, not ethnicity, or whatever you thought it was.  I can assure you Trump and Bolsonaro aren't about the 99% (populism in my mind isn't the same as popularity).



I agree; populism is not the same as popularity. Trump and Bolsonaro aren't populists because of popularity - in fact, they are both decidedly unpopular in many ways - they are both populists because they utilize rhetoric that contrasts the people (aka the 99%) against the establishment elite (aka the 1%). Both of them ran populist campaigns that promised to "drain the swamp". That's populism.

Why did I bring up ethnicity? Because the definition of 'the people',  or 'the 99%' if you prefer, is not constant - populists differ in how 'the people' are defined, and it can be based along ethnic lines - but also class, cultural, or national lines (list not necessarily exhaustive).

So sure, maybe both the populist left and the populist right are concerned about the 99% and that looks great on paper if we imagine the 1% to include big business, capital owners and actors perceived as propping up an international capitalist system - but when we examine it more closely? Right-wing populism all-too-commonly includes immigrants, criminals, ethnic and religious minorities, and cosmopolitan elites in the excluded 'other'. How can there be cooperation with an entity that doesn't accept my friends and allies?

A blunt example: Woody Guthrie and Hitler meant two entirely different things when they talked about the folks.





Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I guess what I was trying to say is we should have a party that is anti-establishment that focuses on the things both sides can agree on, and largely ignore other things.

We can't agree on the 2nd amendment?  Let's leave that alone.  We can't agree on gay marriage?  Let's leave that alone.  We can't agree on whether or not to take statues down?  Let's leave that alone.

We can agree on economic things that help everyone but the super rich?  Let's get it done!  :shrug:



Who's to decide what issues get left alone then?

Or do we ignore every contentious issue? It sounds like a disaster recipe for the continuation of the status quo. Can't agree on single-payer healthcare? Let's leave that alone. Can't agree on abortion access? Let's leave that alone. Can't agree on defunding the police? Lets leave that alone. Can't agree on climate change? Let's leave that alone.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26794853 - 06/30/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I guess what I was trying to say is we should have a party that is anti-establishment that focuses on the things both sides can agree on, and largely ignore other things.

We can't agree on the 2nd amendment?  Let's leave that alone.  We can't agree on gay marriage?  Let's leave that alone.  We can't agree on whether or not to take statues down?  Let's leave that alone.

We can agree on economic things that help everyone but the super rich?  Let's get it done!  :shrug:



Who's to decide what issues get left alone then?

Or do we ignore every contentious issue? It sounds like a disaster recipe for the continuation of the status quo.



Exactly.  Ignore every contentious issue, because I don't think the status quo is a 'disaster' like you do.  If guns don't go away, so what?  If we don't open our borders to immigrants, so what?

Economic issues are FAR more important, like getting billionaires to pay as much as taxes as the bottom 50%.  Putting money back into the hands of the 99%, in other words.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Can't agree on single-payer healthcare? Let's leave that alone. Can't agree on abortion access? Let's leave that alone. Can't agree on defunding the police? Lets leave that alone. Can't agree on climate change? Let's leave that alone.



Single payer healthcare IS an economic issue that people on BOTH sides are now embracing (no, not establishment people on either side).  Status quo for the other issues is just fine by me.


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26795317 - 06/30/20 07:16 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Exactly.  Ignore every contentious issue, because I don't think the status quo is a 'disaster' like you do.  If guns don't go away, so what?  If we don't open our borders to immigrants, so what?

Economic issues are FAR more important, like getting billionaires to pay as much as taxes as the bottom 50%.  Putting money back into the hands of the 99%, in other words.

Single payer healthcare IS an economic issue that people on BOTH sides are now embracing (no, not establishment people on either side).  Status quo for the other issues is just fine by me.




Fine by you maybe but try and have some perspective here. Correct me if I am wrong, but I've gathered from your posts over the years that you are a straight white male with a comfortable white-collar existence. Do you think it's possible that the way you perceive many social issues will be radically different from the perception of those directly harmed?

For example, it's easy to say that abortion access isn't as important as economic policy until you've had to deal with the horrors of an at home abortion.

Your sentiment was already wrong a century ago when women - who couldn't yet work or vote - would question what a workers revolution offered them. Men would frequently see the issue of women’s rights as, at best, secondary to the emancipation of workers - a lesser problem that would be resolved after the revolution. Wrong then and still wrong now.

Turning a blind-eye to social injustice in the pursuit of economic benefit is not a road we should be willing to go down.



I also notice, with regards to single payer healthcare, that you changed the phrasing from "noncontentious" to "people on both sides are now embracing". These are two significantly different qualifiers. Single payer healthcare is still undoubtedly a contentious issue in the USA - there are people on both sides who are embracing gun law reform. Are you using these qualifiers interchangeably as suits your argument?



Finally, I would be interested in reading your comment regarding my claim that 'the 99%' and 'the 1%' are labels that don't always refer to the same groups - because if it's true then all talk of left and right populism unity goes right out the widow.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman] * 1
    #26796417 - 07/01/20 07:29 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Sure but like shiva noted, that’s how you get fascism. The right co opts leftist language and uses it to consolidate power. It’s no accident that Carlson, Enjeti, and others have begun ceding ground to leftist rhetoric. This isn’t due to a sudden change in heart, it’s because the right wing sees a generational crisis on the horizon and they know they’ll stop getting the votes they need if they don’t make some concessions.

If you asked me how to define the populist right I’d give two examples: the tea party and the trump 2016 campaign. Two phenomena grounded in lies and expanded with big money, and largely powered by race issues.

Look I’m all for Bernie teaming up with Republicans in the Senate to stop the war in yemen, because that’s the game in DC. But I’m not for this proposed team-up with racists and fascists in the hopes it gets us a healthcare expansion or a reduction in defense spending, because right now the right is only paying lip service to these ideals in order to claw their way back into electoral viability.




The Tea Party wasn't populism at all in my opinion. It was a call for fiscal austerity and nothing more. Who was going to benefit from that fiscal austerity? The Elite of course, that's wasn't a populism movement at all.




The tea party was much more than a call for austerity, don’t pretend there wasn’t a huge race component. It was the pretext to the Trump campaign.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26796763 - 07/01/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
it's easy to say that abortion access isn't as important as economic policy until you've had to deal with the horrors of an at home abortion.



Is abortion illegal?  If we leave it alone, we don't have to worry about your scenario.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Your sentiment was already wrong a century ago when women - who couldn't yet work or vote - would question what a workers revolution offered them. Men would frequently see the issue of women’s rights as, at best, secondary to the emancipation of workers - a lesser problem that would be resolved after the revolution. Wrong then and still wrong now.



Can women not work or vote?  If we leave it alone, we don't have to worry about your scenario.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I also notice, with regards to single payer healthcare, that you changed the phrasing from "noncontentious" to "people on both sides are now embracing". These are two significantly different qualifiers. Single payer healthcare is still undoubtedly a contentious issue in the USA - there are people on both sides who are embracing gun law reform. Are you using these qualifiers interchangeably as suits your argument?



No, I already explained that my definition was for economic relief; we leave the other issues alone.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Finally, I would be interested in reading your comment regarding my claim that 'the 99%' and 'the 1%' are labels that don't always refer to the same groups - because if it's true then all talk of left and right populism unity goes right out the widow.



The 99% would be based strictly on income.  If you make less than the top 1%, then you're in the 99%.


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26796780 - 07/01/20 10:59 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

To be clear, my suggestion was only for the USA and only for right now.  I realize this wouldn't work everywhere at any time.


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26797079 - 07/01/20 01:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
it's easy to say that abortion access isn't as important as economic policy until you've had to deal with the horrors of an at home abortion.



Is abortion illegal?  If we leave it alone, we don't have to worry about your scenario.



Something can be technically legal while still having significant barriers to access. Is abortion reasonably accessible in the USA to those need it?


Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Your sentiment was already wrong a century ago when women - who couldn't yet work or vote - would question what a workers revolution offered them. Men would frequently see the issue of women’s rights as, at best, secondary to the emancipation of workers - a lesser problem that would be resolved after the revolution. Wrong then and still wrong now.



Can women not work or vote?  If we leave it alone, we don't have to worry about your scenario.



Obviously that was a historical example of your attitude, not a hypothetical future result of it. Did women win those rights by deciding to "leave it alone"? My point is that social inequality is still a reality just as much as economic inequality is, and cannot be ignored.  The rallying cry to support economic justice before social justice is incredibly tone deaf and lacks perspective - you need to understand that your perception comes from a position of privilege where social inequality effects you much less than economic inequality.


Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I also notice, with regards to single payer healthcare, that you changed the phrasing from "noncontentious" to "people on both sides are now embracing". These are two significantly different qualifiers. Single payer healthcare is still undoubtedly a contentious issue in the USA - there are people on both sides who are embracing gun law reform. Are you using these qualifiers interchangeably as suits your argument?



No, I already explained that my definition was for economic relief; we leave the other issues alone.



I guess I got confused when you appeared to defend single payer healthcare as a noncontentious issue. What conditions should be present before we don't have to "leave the other issues alone" anymore?


Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Finally, I would be interested in reading your comment regarding my claim that 'the 99%' and 'the 1%' are labels that don't always refer to the same groups - because if it's true then all talk of left and right populism unity goes right out the widow.



The 99% would be based strictly on income.  If you make less than the top 1%, then you're in the 99%.



Yes, that's your definition - my point is that right-wing populism as it currently exists in the USA uses a different definition. It doesn't matter if two groups agree that X deserves [economic policy] if X is defined differently by the two groups.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26797187 - 07/01/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I got confused when you appeared to defend single payer healthcare as a noncontentious issue. What conditions should be present before we don't have to "leave the other issues alone" anymore?



I should have said we should ignore the contentious issues that don't impact people's wallet.  Medicare for All as originally proposed by Bernie is obviously contentious, but would have given the bottom 95% a break in how much they pay for healthcare.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The 99% would be based strictly on income.  If you make less than the top 1%, then you're in the 99%.



Yes, that's your definition - my point is that right-wing populism as it currently exists in the USA uses a different definition. It doesn't matter if two groups agree that X deserves [economic policy] if X is defined differently by the two groups.



Right, that was my definition.  Once I realized other people wanted different definitions, I politely apologized and said I would back off this discussion.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26807633 - 07/06/20 06:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Graham Elwood from 1:53 to 2:16



"If you wanna beat Trump, hey this resonates:

- Medicare for All
- $15/hr minimum wage
- Student Debt forgiveness
- Free (public) college education
- Ending wars

That resonates with red state voters too."


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26808642 - 07/07/20 09:28 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

That’s why Bernie is wildly popular with independents and even Republicans.

I think the chief problem with getting these popular ideas codified into legislation is the electoral stranglehold of the democratic establishment. We break that, and the Democrats will start winning elections again. And besides, taking down the corporate backed bulwark that is the Democratic Party is a much nobler cause for populist progress than appeasing bigotry.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26809563 - 07/07/20 05:49 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I think the following selection clearly illustrates why the notion of left-right populism is misguided:

Quote:

We define populism as a style, not an ideology. Populists are politicians who centrally pit the “people” against the “elite” or “establishment,” identify with the former, and attack the
latter. The term is value-neutral, and we do not use it to refer to short-sighted economic policies or right-wing extremism. One can deploy populism in the service of almost any ideology or program, left or right, moderate or extreme.

[...]

Numerous factors facilitate populism’s rise. Inequality, economic crisis, corruption, and deficient public services contribute to anti-elite sentiment. Electronic and social media allow populist entrepreneurs to bypass party organizations and directly appeal to voters (e.g., via television, Twitter). But the key explanatory factor, on which we will focus, is the “depoliticization” of divisive policy issues. Depoliticization occurs when elites are so united around a given issue that discussing that issue falls outside the bound of regular political debate. When elites depoliticize divisive issues, segments of the public, predictably, may come to feel unrepresented by, and thus antagonistic toward, them.

[...]

Over the last generation or two, a Western elite consensus has emerged in support of free market capitalism, or neoliberalism. Stated in the above terms, neoliberalism has become an area of depoliticized elite consensus. By “free market capitalism” and “neoliberalism,” we mean economic policies such as free trade, market liberalization, deregulation, and limited taxation and social spending.

Parties and figures on the political right (e.g., Reagan, Thatcher) led the neoliberal turn, and established left-wing forces accepted and helped to consolidate it. Before the turn, left parties were social democratic and heavily redistributionist, with strong bases of public support among workers and trade unions. Today’s left-wing parties are less heavily redistributionist and more widely embrace free market policies than their predecessors. Increasingly, they rely on highly educated voters rather than workers for electoral support. In the US and Britain, for example, the Democratic and Labour Parties moderated their redistributive and trade policies in the 1990s. In France, the Socialist government of Francois Hollande substantially liberalized the national labor code through the “El Khomri” law. All three have come to rely more heavily on college-educated voters and less heavily on working-class voters.

Left populist voters are economically driven. Their primary subjective political grievances are the neoliberal turn, economic hardship, and perceived economic injustice. They believe that they no longer have a “dog in the fight” –i.e., that there is no longer an established political force that opposes neoliberalism and advocates for the working class. Left populists enter this vacuum, placing central programmatic emphasis on rejecting or reversing free market capitalism. They focus on economic pain and unfairness; lament the decline of labor unions and the middle class; highlight the perceived insufficiencies of redistributive systems and social safety nets; and criticize established left forces for capitulating to neoliberalism.

[...]

What about electoral demand for right populism? Here, the story is different. Neoliberalism is not the only area of depoliticized elite consensus in the advanced West. Social progressivism, we argue, is a second (and highly consequential) one. By social progressivism, we mean skepticism of traditional values, religious beliefs, and “retro norms”; openness to multiculturalism and immigration; and greater attention to the rights claims of marginalized groups such as women and racial and sexual minorities.

Just as the political right led the neoliberal turn, the political left led this socially progressive turn; and just as established left forces accepted the neoliberal turn, established right forces have largely accepted the socially progressive turn. In recent decades, conservative establishments across the Western world have shifted considerably on specific policy questions such as abortion, same-sex marriage,and immigration, and with respect to broader social trends such as changing gender roles, racial and sexual diversity, and multiculturalism. An increasing proportion of “establishment” Republican elites and opinion leaders in the United States, for example, support same-sex marriage and (at least prior to the rise of Donald Trump) immigration reform. Germany’s Christian Democratic Party, under the leadership of Angela Merkel, famously oversaw the “welcoming” of nearly one million migrants in 2015. Under David Cameron, British Conservatives “modernized” their policies on same-sex marriage and other hot-button cultural issues. Across Europe, parties of the mainstream right now advocate a minimalist nationalism and embrace the quasi-supranational vision of the EU. In short, on the divisive social questions of recent decades, major pre-populist parties of the right sued for peace.

In contrast to left populist voters, right populist voters are socially and culturally driven. They are social conservatives, and their primary subjective political grievances are social progressivism and mass immigration. Like their left populist counterparts, they believe that they no longer have a “dog in the fight” –i.e., that there is no longer an established political force that opposes social progressivism and mass immigration. Right populists (e.g., Trump, Germany’s AfD) enter this vacuum, placing central programmatic emphasis on rejecting or reversing social progressivism. They focus on social and cultural grievances; lament the erosion of traditional values and national identities; and criticize established right forces for capitulating to social progressivism and demographic change.

[...]

Western social conservatives do not just oppose social progressivism; they tend to oppose unfettered free market capitalism, too (even if the former is more salient to them). These social conservatives tend to be white, working-class, and non-urban. For them, relative (although not absolute) material conditions have declined significantly in recent decades. This relative decline has occurred, in part, due to neoliberal policies such as trade liberalization and lower taxes on the wealthy. Many right populist voters therefore support policies designed to reverse or soften neoliberalism such as trade protectionism and higher taxes on the wealthy.

The reverse is not true. Economically progressive voters (upon whom left populists depend) tend to support social progressivism. Many of them are young, and a disproportionate number are college-educated; both youth and college education correlate with ideological support for progressive social causes. Economically progressive voters also include a relatively high proportion of women and racial and sexual minorities, many of whom credit social progressivism with improved conditions and expanded opportunities for their demographic groups.

[...]

Why does all of this matter? It matters because right populist voters, unlike left populist voters, are doubly alienated. They reject the prevailing social and economic orders. An important consequence is that right populists, even though they focus on attacking social progressivism, can attack free market capitalism, too, without alienating their base. By contrast, left populists can only attack free market capitalism; if they attack social progressivism, they will hemorrhage supporters, who react negatively to socially conservative rhetoric (e.g., critiques of rapid mass immigration or evolving gender roles).

[...]

This has two effects. First, right populists can more easily attract former left-wing voters than left populists can attract former right-wing voters. After all, they hold some anti-neoliberal economic positions, whereas left populists do not hold any conservative social positions. Second, because right populists mix right and left positions, ordinary voters perceive them as, on balance, more programmatically moderate than left populists –although not necessarily more moderate in their attitude toward democracy. Consequently, right populists can also more easily attract moderate, centrist voters –at least those primarily concerned with programmatic issues. Both dynamics advantage right populists in open, nationwide elections.

The data bear out this set of arguments . Before the 2016 US presidential election, for example, American voters regarded Donald Trump as the most moderate and least partisan GOP nominee in a generation. Trump’s winning electoral coalition included a plurality of moderates and independents, and his popularity with both groups substantially exceeded that of previous Republican nominees. France’s National Front and Germany’s AfD, despite drawing most of their support from traditional constituencies of the mainstream right, made crucial inroads with formerly non-right voting blocs. The National Front performed well in France’s “Socialist strongholds,” and the AfD siphoned nearly a million votes from the center-left Social Democratic Party (SPD) and far-left Left Party (Die Linke) in the 2017 German elections. In the 2019 EU Parliament elections, Britain’s right populist Brexit Party drew 13 percent of its support from erstwhile Labour Voters, while the Labour Party, under the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, did not draw significant support from the Conservative Party.



pdf link: Why Right Populists Beat Left Populists (in the West)


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26810653 - 07/08/20 09:15 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

America is now a becoming a socialist country

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26810934 - 07/08/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I think the following selection clearly illustrates why the notion of left-right populism is misguided...



Again, if we use the definition you provided, I agree.  I don't know what the correct term is for right wingers who support Medicare for All, a $15/hr minimum wage, student debt forgiveness, free public college, ending wars, etc.  If you have a better word, that'd be great.


--------------------
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Mach z 800] * 1
    #26811209 - 07/08/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
America is now a becoming a socialist country




I wish


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26811288 - 07/08/20 04:28 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Does there necessarily need to be a specific word for the ideology? Economically progressive, socially conservative seems to suffice.

I'm still not understanding why you appear to suggest a distinction between our definitions. Your op provided definition: "[T]he populist left and the populist right, whose primary concern is the 99%". The definition I most recently supplied: "Populists are politicians who centrally pit the 'people' against the 'elite' or 'establishment,' identify with the former, and attack the latter. The term is value-neutral, and we do not use it to refer to short-sighted economic policies or right-wing extremism. One can deploy populism in the service of almost any ideology or program, left or right, moderate or extreme."

I don't read any substantial differences between the two; and certainly there's no contradiction. Are you trying to assign a specific ideology (support Medicare for All, a $15/hr minimum wage, student debt forgiveness, free public college, ending wars, etc.) to populism?


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26811312 - 07/08/20 04:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I think the following selection clearly illustrates why the notion of left-right populism is misguided...



Again, if we use the definition you provided, I agree.  I don't know what the correct term is for right wingers who support Medicare for All, a $15/hr minimum wage, student debt forgiveness, free public college, ending wars, etc.  If you have a better word, that'd be great.




Nonexistent


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: koods]
    #26811519 - 07/08/20 06:39 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Nonexistent



I guess you haven't watched Saagar Enjeti on Rising, or payed attention to any of qman's posts.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26811530 - 07/08/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Are you trying to assign a specific ideology (support Medicare for All, a $15/hr minimum wage, student debt forgiveness, free public college, ending wars, etc.) to populism?



Yes, I was trying to assign those to a specific ideology.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26811741 - 07/08/20 09:32 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I mean, for all intents and purposes you are correct to use populist to refer to this collection of policies in the USA - the distinction is that 'populist' is a term that refers to the type of rhetoric utilized, rather than the policies themselves.

It's an important distinction to understand because someone like Tucker Carlson can talk about populism and all those policies you mention, but still be talking about a completely different thing. The populist right in the USA is against both the neoliberal establishment and the socially progressive establishment. The importance of being critical and recognizing this becomes clear when we consider the copious historical examples (both recent and over the past century) where the result of your proposal is that those who are ideologically committed to socially progressive values are alienated and the centre-left inadvertantly empowers an authoritarian right-wing regime. Qman basically stated the contradiction earlier in this thread:

Quote:

qman said:
If populism in the US were to unite the left and right, and simultaneously value citizenship at the same time, why would anyone find that problematic? 

I'm really not too worried if migrants/illegals find that makes them feel like "outsiders".






Also, with regards to Tucker Carlson,


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26811807 - 07/08/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I mean, for all intents and purposes you are correct to use populist to refer to this collection of policies in the USA - the distinction is that 'populist' is a term that refers to the type of rhetoric utilized, rather than the policies themselves.



Again, I agreed early on that populist was the wrong word.  I was referring to conservatives who support Medicare for All, a $15/hr minimum wage, student debt forgiveness, free public college, ending wars, etc.  I think there's a pretty good number of conservatives out there who do.  Maybe qman can chime in on which of the above he disagrees with.  I'm not such a fan of student debt forgiveness myself (though I'm not opposed to it either).

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
It's an important distinction to understand because someone like Tucker Carlson can talk about populism and all those policies you mention, but still be talking about a completely different thing. The populist right in the USA is against both the neoliberal establishment and the socially progressive establishment. The importance of being critical and recognizing this becomes clear when we consider the copious historical examples (both recent and over the past century) where the result of your proposal is that those who are ideologically committed to socially progressive values are alienated and the centre-left inadvertantly empowers an authoritarian right-wing regime.

Also, with regards to Tucker Carlson,




Now that I've explained that I meant to refer to economic policy, I can say I've never seen Tucker support a single one of the policies I listed, though Saagar Enjeti and (I think) qman do.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
...the result of your proposal is that those who are ideologically committed to socially progressive values are alienated and the centre-left inadvertantly empowers an authoritarian right-wing regime. Qman basically stated the contradiction earlier in this thread:

Quote:

qman said:
If populism in the US were to unite the left and right, and simultaneously value citizenship at the same time, why would anyone find that problematic? 

I'm really not too worried if migrants/illegals find that makes them feel like "outsiders".






As I explained, I was referring to economic policies that help average Americans, not so much less-economic issues like open borders, gun control, etc.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26812997 - 07/09/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I think the pandemic has laid bare the empty rhetoric of populism. Getting votes and running a country are two separate skills and it really seems like populists suck at running a country


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: koods] * 1
    #26813159 - 07/09/20 03:14 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

absolute brain dead analysis.

How do you watch a complete nationwide failure of the legislative branch to protect citizens in the midst of a pandemic, a joke of a healthcare system not even remotely up to the task, the macabre levels of violence from the police amidst protests AGAINST the very police brutality being inflicted upon them, and another total whiff on al these issues from the opposition party, and conclude “hah nice try populists but I think the people in charge should handle things.”

Amazing.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: koods]
    #26813244 - 07/09/20 04:22 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
I think the pandemic has laid bare the empty rhetoric of populism. Getting votes and running a country are two separate skills and it really seems like populists suck at running a country



If you want to call Trump a populist, which is fine.  But Trump doesn't support ANY of the economic reforms I suggested above that both sides should rally around.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26813345 - 07/09/20 05:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, it's a fair observation to make that the worst responses to the covid-19 pandemic have come from nations with populist rulers (Trump and Bolsonaro being the shining examples) - but it's not hard to imagine that a populist like Sanders would have had a much better response.

This returns to my initial post: that populist rule - whether from the right or the left - has a highly negative effect on political systems and leads to a significant risk of democratic erosion. It's not necessarily inevitable, but there is a statistical increase in risk. Trump and Bolsonaro are excellent examples of this, but the populist left runs the same risk. How do you think this risk can be mitigated?


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26813405 - 07/09/20 05:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Yeah, it's a fair observation to make that the worst responses to the covid-19 pandemic have come from nations with populist rulers (Trump and Bolsonaro being the shining examples) - but it's not hard to imagine that a populist like Sanders would have had a much better response.

This returns to my initial post: that populist rule - whether from the right or the left - has a highly negative effect on political systems and leads to a significant risk of democratic erosion. It's not necessarily inevitable, but there is a statistical increase in risk. Trump and Bolsonaro are excellent examples of this, but the populist left runs the same risk. How do you think this risk can be mitigated?



This returns to my initial reply.  I had a different (probably incorrect) definition of populism in mind - one where populists supported economic policies that helps the poor and middle class, like those Graham Elwood mentioned.  Neither Trump nor Bolsonaro are pushing economic policy to help the poor and middle class.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26814623 - 07/10/20 08:46 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I fail to see some unifying quality that connects left populism with right populism.

Popularity?

Because honestly what is antiestablishment about either president’s administration?

Seems to me like conflating the two is just carrying water for the establishment who wants people like koods to believe that unapologetically crying out for universal social programs is as dangerous and reckless as unapologetically crying out for genocide or military dictatorship.

Here’s a good podcast on how the media uses the term as a cudgel against the left:

https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/episode-42-populism-the-medias-favorite-catch-all-smear-for-the-left


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26814792 - 07/10/20 10:31 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I fail to see some unifying quality that connects left populism with right populism.



I'll list the ones Graham Elwood mentioned again

- Medicare for All
- $15/hr minimum wage
- Student Debt forgiveness
- Free (public) college education
- Ending wars again:

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Because honestly what is antiestablishment about either president’s administration?



Absolutely nothing.  That's why I said "I can assure you Trump and Bolsonaro aren't about the 99%"

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Seems to me like conflating the two is just carrying water for the establishment who wants people like koods to believe that unapologetically crying out for universal social programs is as dangerous and reckless as unapologetically crying out for genocide or military dictatorship.



Koods is pro establishment which is anti (pick the word here I should have used for 'someone who cares about economic policy that helps the 99%).

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Here’s a good podcast on how the media uses the term as a cudgel against the left:

https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/episode-42-populism-the-medias-favorite-catch-all-smear-for-the-left



This is maybe the seventh time I'll say that 'populism' was the wrong word.  I should have said "economic policy to benefit the 99%", but I didn't know the word for that.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26814869 - 07/10/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I don’t think there are enough people on the right calling for those policies to even justify a term for it.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26814875 - 07/10/20 11:11 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

From what I can tell, there’s a small niche group of folks on the right who decry the corrupt government and want policies that work for working families.

But what’s their policy goals?
What politicians or organizations are they supporting to further this agenda?


Like I said previously, this populist rhetoric is just a stop gap for the right to pretend they can cater to the ever increasing number of people who see our institutions as an impediment to progress.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26815082 - 07/10/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I disagree.

52% of Republicans support Medicare for All
36% of Republicans support a $15/hr minimum wage
40% of Republicans support free public education and eliminating student debt
65% of Republicans support restraining military action overseas

That's a lot of Republicans.

THAT is what fueled my OP.  People on both sides who support these things should join together against the people who support establishment politicians.  :shrug:


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26815267 - 07/10/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Sure, the polling for these programs is cause for optimism. But like I said, where’s the infrastructure on the right for furthering those agenda items?

What’s missing here is an analysis of what the average Republican voter prioritizes.

Sure they might want healthcare, education, and less war, but is that more important than keeping out the illegals? Or tapping the brakes on the PC police? The hysteria surrounding the culture war on the right keeps policy firmly in the backseat of political campaigns, and that’s just how the ruling class likes it. It’s a big part of why people say you can’t have racism without capitalism. If voters on the right weren’t so scared to death of anyone outside their WASP demo, politicians supporting those policy items would be winning in landslide victories, and progressive change would be forced upon the establishment. But that isn’t happening because 40% of our country’s voters care more about xenophobia than domestic policy.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26815279 - 07/10/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

And that’s not to say the center and center left aren’t enamored with pointless bullshit as well. Go ask a Biden supporter why you should vote for him and challenge them to not mention Donald Trump.

Now obviously this isn’t an organic happenstance. The culture war is fueled by those who would rather we argue about statues and masks than capitalism or corruption. You can see it happen in real time as the establishment and their media allies drain the BLM movement of energy by making it about painted streets, maple syrup, voice actors, statues, and literally anything but police accountability.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26815294 - 07/10/20 02:06 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Sure, the polling for these programs is cause for optimism. But like I said, where’s the infrastructure on the right for furthering those agenda items?



Where's the infrastructure on the left?  Bernie got taken out by the establishment.

I generally agree with what you're saying here.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26815325 - 07/10/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Just because the grassroots movement on the left isn’t powerful enough to overcome the establishment doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

We’re gonna lose hundreds more times before we win.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26815337 - 07/10/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Just because the grassroots movement on the left isn’t powerful enough to overcome the establishment doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.



Now you're understanding the reason I created this thread.  If the Bernie supporters on the left joined those on the right with similar economic values (above things like open borders, PC censorship, gun control, etc), someone like Bernie might have a shot.  Bernie was actually surprisingly popular with many on the right.

Many people on both sides will continue to push for establishment politicians.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26815596 - 07/10/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Now you're understanding the reason I created this thread.  If the Bernie supporters on the left joined those on the right with similar economic values (above things like open borders, PC censorship, gun control, etc), someone like Bernie might have a shot.  Bernie was actually surprisingly popular with many on the right.



Historically what results from this proposal is that you alienate those on the left (many of whom credit social progressivism with improved conditions and expanded opportunities for their demographic groups) who are unwilling to compromise their social values for promised economic benefit; and you empower those on the right (many of whom credit social progressivism with decreased conditions and minimized opportunities for their demographic groups) whose primary subjective political grievances are social progressivism and mass immigration despite a willingness to also attack free market capitalism.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26815664 - 07/10/20 05:29 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I fail to see some unifying quality that connects left populism with right populism.

Popularity?

Because honestly what is antiestablishment about either president’s administration?

Seems to me like conflating the two is just carrying water for the establishment who wants people like koods to believe that unapologetically crying out for universal social programs is as dangerous and reckless as unapologetically crying out for genocide or military dictatorship.



Populism really just refers to the quality of "us/the people" against "them/the establishment" type antagonism in campaign rhetoric.  The term is value-neutral - you could deploy populism in the service of almost any ideology or program, left or right, moderate or extreme.

Left populism tends to be inclusive whereas right populism tends to be nativist - that's a significant distinction and we shouldn't conflate the two in this way (something I think falcon is doing in this thread) but I've still seen enough information out there to conclude that there is a strong association between rulers who utilize populist rhetoric and corruption of democratic institutions; and that this association, while being slightly stronger for right populism (38%), is similarly associated with left populism (33%).

Personally, I think the major flaw of populism is the tendency to concentrate the authority of "the people" into a single individual or political party. Empowering a ruler to sweep away independent institutions in the name of the people will always hold an inherent risk. To be clear, I'm not making a slippery slope argument here - it's a risk not an inevitability - but we definitely need to ask ourselves if the benefit of populism is worth this risk; and if it is worth the risk, how can we minimize it? Discontent with corruption often brings populists to power but they frequently end up even more corrupt than previous governments. There is something bitterly ironic about the extent to which populists use their power for corrupt purposes.

Also, my internet is limited and I wasn't able to listen to the podcast but if you wanted to bring up any points made I would be interested.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26815942 - 07/10/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Historically what results from this proposal...



What's a historical example of someone supporting greater taxes on the rich for the benefit of everyone else?  :shrug:


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26816115 - 07/10/20 09:23 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not certain if I could find that specific phrasing but I can certainly provide some historical examples where the left joined those on the right with similar economic values. The most recent elections in France, UK, Germany, and USA all saw populist parties receive support from formerly left (or blue for the USA) voters. The National Front performed well in France’s “Socialist strongholds”; the AfD siphoned nearly a million votes from the center-left Social Democratic Party (SPD) and far-left Left Party (Die Linke) in the 2017 German elections; in the 2019 EU Parliament elections, Britain’s right populist Brexit Party drew 13 percent of its support from Labour voters; and that swath of voters in the deindustrializing rust belt whose votes delivered formerly Democratic states to Trump in 2016.

The populist left is against the economic establishment (neoliberalism) but supports the social establishment (progressivism) whereas the populist right is against both the economic and social establishment. The populist left can only appeal to resentment towards neoliberalism - any perceived attack on social progressive values will alienate much of their potential voters. The populist right can appeal to the resentment towards both. This has two effects. First, right populists can more easily attract former left-wing voters than left populists can attract former right-wing voters. After all, they hold some anti-neoliberal economic positions, whereas left populists do not hold any conservative social positions. Second, because right populists mix right and left positions, ordinary voters perceive them as, on balance, more programmatically moderate than left populists – although not necessarily more moderate in their attitude toward democracy. Consequently, right populists can also more easily attract moderate, centrist voters – at least those primarily concerned with programmatic issues. Both dynamics advantage right populists in open, nationwide elections.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26817077 - 07/11/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Just because the grassroots movement on the left isn’t powerful enough to overcome the establishment doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.



Now you're understanding the reason I created this thread.  If the Bernie supporters on the left joined those on the right with similar economic values (above things like open borders, PC censorship, gun control, etc), someone like Bernie might have a shot.  Bernie was actually surprisingly popular with many on the right.

Many people on both sides will continue to push for establishment politicians.




I think we’re making pretty solid progress with the Sanders wing of the Democratic Party considering it didn’t exist 4 years ago. I think much of that is because traditionally republican constituencies are also moving left (which is why we see the Carson and Enjeti appeals to populism). But we should be recruiting those folks on the basis of our ideals, because it’s working right now. We don’t need to carve out a bigot wing of the progressive movement, then we’re no better than the Democratic establishment.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26817214 - 07/11/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
We don’t need to carve out a bigot wing of the progressive movement, then we’re no better than the Democratic establishment.



Ya, I think that was shivas' argument.

Right now in America, I'd take economic progress over social progress, because socially we've come a long way, but economically we're falling apart.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26817340 - 07/11/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yea, but once again, you need to understand that your perspective comes from a position of relative privilege where social inequality doesn't affect you as severely as economic inequality does.

Why is it an either/or equation anyways? In my opinion, any analysis of economics that doesn't take into account existing social realities will always be deficient.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26817599 - 07/11/20 03:21 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Yea, but once again, you need to understand that your perspective comes from a position of relative privilege where social inequality doesn't affect you as severely as economic inequality does.



That's probably true.  And I also live in an area (San Francisco Bay Area) where whites are already a minority, and I don't think there's as much social inequality (though there's plenty of economic inequality).

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Why is it an either/or equation anyways? In my opinion, any analysis of economics that doesn't take into account existing social realities will always be deficient.



So that people like Bernie have a better chance.  A lot of conservatives liked Bernie (yes, I realize he is also socially liberal, but he's not so overboard as to want to censor politically incorrect speech, or get rid of guns).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26817646 - 07/11/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

For sure - qman is an excellent example of the type of conservative you refer to. Do you think Bernie's social policy was a significant obstacle in gaining support from this subset of conservatives? Maybe qman could provide their perspective if they are reading along.

Personally, it seems like the Democratic party is the major obstacle you need to overcome.  Twice now we've seen milquetoast establishment candidates put forth - how will you even get a candidate like Bernie on the ticket?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26817650 - 07/11/20 03:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I think it depends on what you mean by social inequality. SF prides itself a liberal place and sure there are no laws on the books that say any one demographic is a lesser. But how many black folks own property inside the city limits? Hell even Oakland is getting gentrified to shit.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26817671 - 07/11/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth but I think qman’s position on the Sanders campaign was basically “he shouldn’t call himself a socialist (which I agree on actually), and that his policies were largely good and he would support him if it weren’t for all the SJW/PC stuff.”


Even from a purely utilitarian standpoint, I’m not sure whether abandoning social progressivism (and alienating minorities) in order to attract the white working class is even a good trade off from a numbers point of view. And this is ignoring the moral argument, and the historical one.

I think as progressives (I’m defining the term as someone considerably to the left of the Democratic Party) we just need to keep doing what we’re doing. From an electoralism perspective it’s tricky whether to abandon the Democrats as a whole or continue to try to morph the party. I think creating a new 3rd party that’s unabashedly left would earn some kudos from those susceptible white working class folks who can’t stand the Democrats, but in a two party system like ours a 3rd party would essentially play spoiler and only help the GOP (this may change soon).


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26818049 - 07/11/20 07:03 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
For sure - qman is an excellent example of the type of conservative you refer to. Do you think Bernie's social policy was a significant obstacle in gaining support from this subset of conservatives? Maybe qman could provide their perspective if they are reading along.



No, I don't think so, because Bernie was trying not to piss off the right too much, but we can let qman chime in if he's reading.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Personally, it seems like the Democratic party is the major obstacle you need to overcome.  Twice now we've seen milquetoast establishment candidates put forth - how will you even get a candidate like Bernie on the ticket?



Yes, you're absolutely correct.  I've abandoned the Democratic party for the Green party nearly 20 years ago.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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