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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26815279 - 07/10/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

And that’s not to say the center and center left aren’t enamored with pointless bullshit as well. Go ask a Biden supporter why you should vote for him and challenge them to not mention Donald Trump.

Now obviously this isn’t an organic happenstance. The culture war is fueled by those who would rather we argue about statues and masks than capitalism or corruption. You can see it happen in real time as the establishment and their media allies drain the BLM movement of energy by making it about painted streets, maple syrup, voice actors, statues, and literally anything but police accountability.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26815294 - 07/10/20 02:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Sure, the polling for these programs is cause for optimism. But like I said, where’s the infrastructure on the right for furthering those agenda items?



Where's the infrastructure on the left?  Bernie got taken out by the establishment.

I generally agree with what you're saying here.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26815325 - 07/10/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Just because the grassroots movement on the left isn’t powerful enough to overcome the establishment doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

We’re gonna lose hundreds more times before we win.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26815337 - 07/10/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Just because the grassroots movement on the left isn’t powerful enough to overcome the establishment doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.



Now you're understanding the reason I created this thread.  If the Bernie supporters on the left joined those on the right with similar economic values (above things like open borders, PC censorship, gun control, etc), someone like Bernie might have a shot.  Bernie was actually surprisingly popular with many on the right.

Many people on both sides will continue to push for establishment politicians.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26815596 - 07/10/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Now you're understanding the reason I created this thread.  If the Bernie supporters on the left joined those on the right with similar economic values (above things like open borders, PC censorship, gun control, etc), someone like Bernie might have a shot.  Bernie was actually surprisingly popular with many on the right.



Historically what results from this proposal is that you alienate those on the left (many of whom credit social progressivism with improved conditions and expanded opportunities for their demographic groups) who are unwilling to compromise their social values for promised economic benefit; and you empower those on the right (many of whom credit social progressivism with decreased conditions and minimized opportunities for their demographic groups) whose primary subjective political grievances are social progressivism and mass immigration despite a willingness to also attack free market capitalism.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26815664 - 07/10/20 05:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I fail to see some unifying quality that connects left populism with right populism.

Popularity?

Because honestly what is antiestablishment about either president’s administration?

Seems to me like conflating the two is just carrying water for the establishment who wants people like koods to believe that unapologetically crying out for universal social programs is as dangerous and reckless as unapologetically crying out for genocide or military dictatorship.



Populism really just refers to the quality of "us/the people" against "them/the establishment" type antagonism in campaign rhetoric.  The term is value-neutral - you could deploy populism in the service of almost any ideology or program, left or right, moderate or extreme.

Left populism tends to be inclusive whereas right populism tends to be nativist - that's a significant distinction and we shouldn't conflate the two in this way (something I think falcon is doing in this thread) but I've still seen enough information out there to conclude that there is a strong association between rulers who utilize populist rhetoric and corruption of democratic institutions; and that this association, while being slightly stronger for right populism (38%), is similarly associated with left populism (33%).

Personally, I think the major flaw of populism is the tendency to concentrate the authority of "the people" into a single individual or political party. Empowering a ruler to sweep away independent institutions in the name of the people will always hold an inherent risk. To be clear, I'm not making a slippery slope argument here - it's a risk not an inevitability - but we definitely need to ask ourselves if the benefit of populism is worth this risk; and if it is worth the risk, how can we minimize it? Discontent with corruption often brings populists to power but they frequently end up even more corrupt than previous governments. There is something bitterly ironic about the extent to which populists use their power for corrupt purposes.

Also, my internet is limited and I wasn't able to listen to the podcast but if you wanted to bring up any points made I would be interested.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26815942 - 07/10/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Historically what results from this proposal...



What's a historical example of someone supporting greater taxes on the rich for the benefit of everyone else?  :shrug:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26816115 - 07/10/20 09:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not certain if I could find that specific phrasing but I can certainly provide some historical examples where the left joined those on the right with similar economic values. The most recent elections in France, UK, Germany, and USA all saw populist parties receive support from formerly left (or blue for the USA) voters. The National Front performed well in France’s “Socialist strongholds”; the AfD siphoned nearly a million votes from the center-left Social Democratic Party (SPD) and far-left Left Party (Die Linke) in the 2017 German elections; in the 2019 EU Parliament elections, Britain’s right populist Brexit Party drew 13 percent of its support from Labour voters; and that swath of voters in the deindustrializing rust belt whose votes delivered formerly Democratic states to Trump in 2016.

The populist left is against the economic establishment (neoliberalism) but supports the social establishment (progressivism) whereas the populist right is against both the economic and social establishment. The populist left can only appeal to resentment towards neoliberalism - any perceived attack on social progressive values will alienate much of their potential voters. The populist right can appeal to the resentment towards both. This has two effects. First, right populists can more easily attract former left-wing voters than left populists can attract former right-wing voters. After all, they hold some anti-neoliberal economic positions, whereas left populists do not hold any conservative social positions. Second, because right populists mix right and left positions, ordinary voters perceive them as, on balance, more programmatically moderate than left populists – although not necessarily more moderate in their attitude toward democracy. Consequently, right populists can also more easily attract moderate, centrist voters – at least those primarily concerned with programmatic issues. Both dynamics advantage right populists in open, nationwide elections.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26817077 - 07/11/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Just because the grassroots movement on the left isn’t powerful enough to overcome the establishment doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.



Now you're understanding the reason I created this thread.  If the Bernie supporters on the left joined those on the right with similar economic values (above things like open borders, PC censorship, gun control, etc), someone like Bernie might have a shot.  Bernie was actually surprisingly popular with many on the right.

Many people on both sides will continue to push for establishment politicians.




I think we’re making pretty solid progress with the Sanders wing of the Democratic Party considering it didn’t exist 4 years ago. I think much of that is because traditionally republican constituencies are also moving left (which is why we see the Carson and Enjeti appeals to populism). But we should be recruiting those folks on the basis of our ideals, because it’s working right now. We don’t need to carve out a bigot wing of the progressive movement, then we’re no better than the Democratic establishment.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26817214 - 07/11/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
We don’t need to carve out a bigot wing of the progressive movement, then we’re no better than the Democratic establishment.



Ya, I think that was shivas' argument.

Right now in America, I'd take economic progress over social progress, because socially we've come a long way, but economically we're falling apart.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26817340 - 07/11/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yea, but once again, you need to understand that your perspective comes from a position of relative privilege where social inequality doesn't affect you as severely as economic inequality does.

Why is it an either/or equation anyways? In my opinion, any analysis of economics that doesn't take into account existing social realities will always be deficient.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26817599 - 07/11/20 03:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Yea, but once again, you need to understand that your perspective comes from a position of relative privilege where social inequality doesn't affect you as severely as economic inequality does.



That's probably true.  And I also live in an area (San Francisco Bay Area) where whites are already a minority, and I don't think there's as much social inequality (though there's plenty of economic inequality).

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Why is it an either/or equation anyways? In my opinion, any analysis of economics that doesn't take into account existing social realities will always be deficient.



So that people like Bernie have a better chance.  A lot of conservatives liked Bernie (yes, I realize he is also socially liberal, but he's not so overboard as to want to censor politically incorrect speech, or get rid of guns).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26817646 - 07/11/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

For sure - qman is an excellent example of the type of conservative you refer to. Do you think Bernie's social policy was a significant obstacle in gaining support from this subset of conservatives? Maybe qman could provide their perspective if they are reading along.

Personally, it seems like the Democratic party is the major obstacle you need to overcome.  Twice now we've seen milquetoast establishment candidates put forth - how will you even get a candidate like Bernie on the ticket?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26817650 - 07/11/20 03:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think it depends on what you mean by social inequality. SF prides itself a liberal place and sure there are no laws on the books that say any one demographic is a lesser. But how many black folks own property inside the city limits? Hell even Oakland is getting gentrified to shit.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26817671 - 07/11/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth but I think qman’s position on the Sanders campaign was basically “he shouldn’t call himself a socialist (which I agree on actually), and that his policies were largely good and he would support him if it weren’t for all the SJW/PC stuff.”


Even from a purely utilitarian standpoint, I’m not sure whether abandoning social progressivism (and alienating minorities) in order to attract the white working class is even a good trade off from a numbers point of view. And this is ignoring the moral argument, and the historical one.

I think as progressives (I’m defining the term as someone considerably to the left of the Democratic Party) we just need to keep doing what we’re doing. From an electoralism perspective it’s tricky whether to abandon the Democrats as a whole or continue to try to morph the party. I think creating a new 3rd party that’s unabashedly left would earn some kudos from those susceptible white working class folks who can’t stand the Democrats, but in a two party system like ours a 3rd party would essentially play spoiler and only help the GOP (this may change soon).


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26818049 - 07/11/20 07:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
For sure - qman is an excellent example of the type of conservative you refer to. Do you think Bernie's social policy was a significant obstacle in gaining support from this subset of conservatives? Maybe qman could provide their perspective if they are reading along.



No, I don't think so, because Bernie was trying not to piss off the right too much, but we can let qman chime in if he's reading.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Personally, it seems like the Democratic party is the major obstacle you need to overcome.  Twice now we've seen milquetoast establishment candidates put forth - how will you even get a candidate like Bernie on the ticket?



Yes, you're absolutely correct.  I've abandoned the Democratic party for the Green party nearly 20 years ago.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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