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Mach z 800
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26810653 - 07/08/20 09:15 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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America is now a becoming a socialist country
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26810934 - 07/08/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I think the following selection clearly illustrates why the notion of left-right populism is misguided...
Again, if we use the definition you provided, I agree. I don't know what the correct term is for right wingers who support Medicare for All, a $15/hr minimum wage, student debt forgiveness, free public college, ending wars, etc. If you have a better word, that'd be great.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Mach z 800] 1
#26811209 - 07/08/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mach z 800 said: America is now a becoming a socialist country
I wish
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26811288 - 07/08/20 04:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Does there necessarily need to be a specific word for the ideology? Economically progressive, socially conservative seems to suffice.
I'm still not understanding why you appear to suggest a distinction between our definitions. Your op provided definition: "[T]he populist left and the populist right, whose primary concern is the 99%". The definition I most recently supplied: "Populists are politicians who centrally pit the 'people' against the 'elite' or 'establishment,' identify with the former, and attack the latter. The term is value-neutral, and we do not use it to refer to short-sighted economic policies or right-wing extremism. One can deploy populism in the service of almost any ideology or program, left or right, moderate or extreme."
I don't read any substantial differences between the two; and certainly there's no contradiction. Are you trying to assign a specific ideology (support Medicare for All, a $15/hr minimum wage, student debt forgiveness, free public college, ending wars, etc.) to populism?
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koods
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26811312 - 07/08/20 04:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I think the following selection clearly illustrates why the notion of left-right populism is misguided...
Again, if we use the definition you provided, I agree. I don't know what the correct term is for right wingers who support Medicare for All, a $15/hr minimum wage, student debt forgiveness, free public college, ending wars, etc. If you have a better word, that'd be great.
Nonexistent
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: koods]
#26811519 - 07/08/20 06:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Nonexistent
I guess you haven't watched Saagar Enjeti on Rising, or payed attention to any of qman's posts.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26811530 - 07/08/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Are you trying to assign a specific ideology (support Medicare for All, a $15/hr minimum wage, student debt forgiveness, free public college, ending wars, etc.) to populism?
Yes, I was trying to assign those to a specific ideology.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26811741 - 07/08/20 09:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I mean, for all intents and purposes you are correct to use populist to refer to this collection of policies in the USA - the distinction is that 'populist' is a term that refers to the type of rhetoric utilized, rather than the policies themselves.
It's an important distinction to understand because someone like Tucker Carlson can talk about populism and all those policies you mention, but still be talking about a completely different thing. The populist right in the USA is against both the neoliberal establishment and the socially progressive establishment. The importance of being critical and recognizing this becomes clear when we consider the copious historical examples (both recent and over the past century) where the result of your proposal is that those who are ideologically committed to socially progressive values are alienated and the centre-left inadvertantly empowers an authoritarian right-wing regime. Qman basically stated the contradiction earlier in this thread:
Quote:
qman said: If populism in the US were to unite the left and right, and simultaneously value citizenship at the same time, why would anyone find that problematic?
I'm really not too worried if migrants/illegals find that makes them feel like "outsiders".
Also, with regards to Tucker Carlson,
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26811807 - 07/08/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I mean, for all intents and purposes you are correct to use populist to refer to this collection of policies in the USA - the distinction is that 'populist' is a term that refers to the type of rhetoric utilized, rather than the policies themselves.
Again, I agreed early on that populist was the wrong word. I was referring to conservatives who support Medicare for All, a $15/hr minimum wage, student debt forgiveness, free public college, ending wars, etc. I think there's a pretty good number of conservatives out there who do. Maybe qman can chime in on which of the above he disagrees with. I'm not such a fan of student debt forgiveness myself (though I'm not opposed to it either).
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: It's an important distinction to understand because someone like Tucker Carlson can talk about populism and all those policies you mention, but still be talking about a completely different thing. The populist right in the USA is against both the neoliberal establishment and the socially progressive establishment. The importance of being critical and recognizing this becomes clear when we consider the copious historical examples (both recent and over the past century) where the result of your proposal is that those who are ideologically committed to socially progressive values are alienated and the centre-left inadvertantly empowers an authoritarian right-wing regime.
Also, with regards to Tucker Carlson,
Now that I've explained that I meant to refer to economic policy, I can say I've never seen Tucker support a single one of the policies I listed, though Saagar Enjeti and (I think) qman do.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: ...the result of your proposal is that those who are ideologically committed to socially progressive values are alienated and the centre-left inadvertantly empowers an authoritarian right-wing regime. Qman basically stated the contradiction earlier in this thread:
Quote:
qman said: If populism in the US were to unite the left and right, and simultaneously value citizenship at the same time, why would anyone find that problematic?
I'm really not too worried if migrants/illegals find that makes them feel like "outsiders".
As I explained, I was referring to economic policies that help average Americans, not so much less-economic issues like open borders, gun control, etc.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26812997 - 07/09/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think the pandemic has laid bare the empty rhetoric of populism. Getting votes and running a country are two separate skills and it really seems like populists suck at running a country
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The Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: koods] 1
#26813159 - 07/09/20 03:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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absolute brain dead analysis.
How do you watch a complete nationwide failure of the legislative branch to protect citizens in the midst of a pandemic, a joke of a healthcare system not even remotely up to the task, the macabre levels of violence from the police amidst protests AGAINST the very police brutality being inflicted upon them, and another total whiff on al these issues from the opposition party, and conclude “hah nice try populists but I think the people in charge should handle things.”
Amazing.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: koods]
#26813244 - 07/09/20 04:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: I think the pandemic has laid bare the empty rhetoric of populism. Getting votes and running a country are two separate skills and it really seems like populists suck at running a country
If you want to call Trump a populist, which is fine. But Trump doesn't support ANY of the economic reforms I suggested above that both sides should rally around.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26813345 - 07/09/20 05:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah, it's a fair observation to make that the worst responses to the covid-19 pandemic have come from nations with populist rulers (Trump and Bolsonaro being the shining examples) - but it's not hard to imagine that a populist like Sanders would have had a much better response.
This returns to my initial post: that populist rule - whether from the right or the left - has a highly negative effect on political systems and leads to a significant risk of democratic erosion. It's not necessarily inevitable, but there is a statistical increase in risk. Trump and Bolsonaro are excellent examples of this, but the populist left runs the same risk. How do you think this risk can be mitigated?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26813405 - 07/09/20 05:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Yeah, it's a fair observation to make that the worst responses to the covid-19 pandemic have come from nations with populist rulers (Trump and Bolsonaro being the shining examples) - but it's not hard to imagine that a populist like Sanders would have had a much better response.
This returns to my initial post: that populist rule - whether from the right or the left - has a highly negative effect on political systems and leads to a significant risk of democratic erosion. It's not necessarily inevitable, but there is a statistical increase in risk. Trump and Bolsonaro are excellent examples of this, but the populist left runs the same risk. How do you think this risk can be mitigated?
This returns to my initial reply. I had a different (probably incorrect) definition of populism in mind - one where populists supported economic policies that helps the poor and middle class, like those Graham Elwood mentioned. Neither Trump nor Bolsonaro are pushing economic policy to help the poor and middle class.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26814623 - 07/10/20 08:46 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I fail to see some unifying quality that connects left populism with right populism.
Popularity?
Because honestly what is antiestablishment about either president’s administration?
Seems to me like conflating the two is just carrying water for the establishment who wants people like koods to believe that unapologetically crying out for universal social programs is as dangerous and reckless as unapologetically crying out for genocide or military dictatorship.
Here’s a good podcast on how the media uses the term as a cudgel against the left:
https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/episode-42-populism-the-medias-favorite-catch-all-smear-for-the-left
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
#26814792 - 07/10/20 10:31 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I fail to see some unifying quality that connects left populism with right populism.
I'll list the ones Graham Elwood mentioned again
- Medicare for All - $15/hr minimum wage - Student Debt forgiveness - Free (public) college education - Ending wars again:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Because honestly what is antiestablishment about either president’s administration?
Absolutely nothing. That's why I said "I can assure you Trump and Bolsonaro aren't about the 99%"
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Seems to me like conflating the two is just carrying water for the establishment who wants people like koods to believe that unapologetically crying out for universal social programs is as dangerous and reckless as unapologetically crying out for genocide or military dictatorship.
Koods is pro establishment which is anti (pick the word here I should have used for 'someone who cares about economic policy that helps the 99%).
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Here’s a good podcast on how the media uses the term as a cudgel against the left:
https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/episode-42-populism-the-medias-favorite-catch-all-smear-for-the-left
This is maybe the seventh time I'll say that 'populism' was the wrong word. I should have said "economic policy to benefit the 99%", but I didn't know the word for that.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26814869 - 07/10/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don’t think there are enough people on the right calling for those policies to even justify a term for it.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
#26814875 - 07/10/20 11:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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From what I can tell, there’s a small niche group of folks on the right who decry the corrupt government and want policies that work for working families.
But what’s their policy goals? What politicians or organizations are they supporting to further this agenda?
Like I said previously, this populist rhetoric is just a stop gap for the right to pretend they can cater to the ever increasing number of people who see our institutions as an impediment to progress.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
#26815082 - 07/10/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26815267 - 07/10/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Sure, the polling for these programs is cause for optimism. But like I said, where’s the infrastructure on the right for furthering those agenda items?
What’s missing here is an analysis of what the average Republican voter prioritizes.
Sure they might want healthcare, education, and less war, but is that more important than keeping out the illegals? Or tapping the brakes on the PC police? The hysteria surrounding the culture war on the right keeps policy firmly in the backseat of political campaigns, and that’s just how the ruling class likes it. It’s a big part of why people say you can’t have racism without capitalism. If voters on the right weren’t so scared to death of anyone outside their WASP demo, politicians supporting those policy items would be winning in landslide victories, and progressive change would be forced upon the establishment. But that isn’t happening because 40% of our country’s voters care more about xenophobia than domestic policy.
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