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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman] * 1
    #26789795 - 06/28/20 01:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Nationalism deserves less respect than corporatism.


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Offlineqman
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26789955 - 06/28/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Nationalism deserves less respect than corporatism.




Keep on begging corporatism for Medicare For All and a reduction in wealth/income inequality and see what happens.  You'll be in the same spot or even a worse state of affairs.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman]
    #26790286 - 06/28/20 04:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
And that's why the left will continue to fail US citizens regardless of who's in office.

The Elite have convinced the left that immigration is a great social-economic policy despite the fact it clearly isn't for the working class.

AOC has already proven she's a representative of the corporate elite every chance she gets.  I predicted over a year ago that was going to happen, fuck AOC and her sellout agenda.

Economic nationalism should work for anyone regardless of their demographic, it's only problematic when you represent corporate interests.



International solidarity is one of the foundational positions of left-wing politics. Ethics aside, going all the way back to Marx and Engels there's been a clear argument that economic class, rather than nationality, ethnicity, or culture, is the main force which divides people in society, and that nationalist ideology is a propaganda tool of a society's dominant economic class.

I know that your economic nationalism holds a similar critique of ethnicity and culture, so can you explain why you don't extend that critique to nationality as well? You've probably already answered this in the past but I can't recall.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman] * 1
    #26790685 - 06/28/20 06:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Nationalism deserves less respect than corporatism.




Keep on begging corporatism for Medicare For All and a reduction in wealth/income inequality and see what happens.  You'll be in the same spot or even a worse state of affairs.




Capitalism is global buddy. The sooner you accept that the sooner you can stop pretending that trying to make things better in this country won’t just result in capital moving what’s left of their money overseas.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman]
    #26791567 - 06/29/20 07:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

At least you didn't call her a whore again.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Offlineqman
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26791769 - 06/29/20 10:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

qman said:
And that's why the left will continue to fail US citizens regardless of who's in office.

The Elite have convinced the left that immigration is a great social-economic policy despite the fact it clearly isn't for the working class.

AOC has already proven she's a representative of the corporate elite every chance she gets.  I predicted over a year ago that was going to happen, fuck AOC and her sellout agenda.

Economic nationalism should work for anyone regardless of their demographic, it's only problematic when you represent corporate interests.



International solidarity is one of the foundational positions of left-wing politics. Ethics aside, going all the way back to Marx and Engels there's been a clear argument that economic class, rather than nationality, ethnicity, or culture, is the main force which divides people in society, and that nationalist ideology is a propaganda tool of a society's dominant economic class.

I know that your economic nationalism holds a similar critique of ethnicity and culture, so can you explain why you don't extend that critique to nationality as well? You've probably already answered this in the past but I can't recall.




If the criticism of economic nationalism is that it doesn't embrace an international solidarity, I'm perfectly fine with that outcome. The fact that economic nationalism might potentially benefit natives of all demographics as opposed to foreigners and The Elite of the US is something I can live with. In fact, it's something people in other nations can embrace in their own economies.

I agree that nationalism can be abused by the ruling class for their own benefit, but economic nationalism doesn't have any benefits for The Elite if applied properly. I view nationalism rooted in ideology and economic nationalistic policies are two separate concepts.


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Offlineqman
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26791778 - 06/29/20 10:14 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Nationalism deserves less respect than corporatism.




Keep on begging corporatism for Medicare For All and a reduction in wealth/income inequality and see what happens.  You'll be in the same spot or even a worse state of affairs.




Capitalism is global buddy. The sooner you accept that the sooner you can stop pretending that trying to make things better in this country won’t just result in capital moving what’s left of their money overseas.




I respect that viewpoint and it doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposal. Reversing some of the existing economic policies doesn't necessarily mean capital exits the US for some other market. In fact, some could argue it could even attract more capital in certain circumstances.


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Offlineqman
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26791781 - 06/29/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
At least you didn't call her a whore again.




You mean political whore, which she clearly is today.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman] * 1
    #26791870 - 06/29/20 11:10 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think you should read some theory and develop a larger critique of the system as a whole. This piecemeal nibbling around the edges just ignores the systemic problems itself. It’s no different than the liberals thinking removing some statues will solve racism.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26791888 - 06/29/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Are you not going to bother providing your own contrasting definition for populism in response? Just like that discussions over?



I did in the OP.  I said the populist left and the populist right's primary concern is the 99%, not ethnicity, or whatever you thought it was.  I can assure you Trump and Bolsonaro aren't about the 99% (populism in my mind isn't the same as popularity).

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Obviously you were interested enough in your (first?) encounter with populism that you made this thread, and many of the world leaders you quite often defend on this forum find themselves on that list above of populist leaders - so clearly you have an affinity for the ideology.



Can you tell me which world leaders you are talking about?  I've defended Putin and Maduro from make believe, but that doesn't mean I support them (see my signature).

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
You weren't aware of the definition of populist before making this thread? Well take the opportunity to read those reports and then maybe we'll be able to continue this conversation.



Sure, I'll take a look at those.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26792028 - 06/29/20 12:50 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I said the populist left and the populist right's primary concern is the 99%, not ethnicity




lol come on man


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26792047 - 06/29/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I apologized for 'populist' having other meanings.  :shrug:

There are many things the left and many on the right (obviously not all) agree on, such as universal health care, raising the minimum wage, and not getting into wars of aggression (those were taken from the article in the OP).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26792059 - 06/29/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

What are you defining as the populist right?


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Offlineqman
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26792064 - 06/29/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I think you should read some theory and develop a larger critique of the system as a whole. This piecemeal nibbling around the edges just ignores the systemic problems itself. It’s no different than the liberals thinking removing some statues will solve racism.




Oh, trust me. Some of my ideas for economic nationalism would NOT set very well with the current "capitalists".  Restructuring tax codes, currencies, asset classes and the distribution of wealth wouldn't resemble anything we see today.

So yeah, the "capitalists" could seek better conditions in Russia, China or some other place, and my answer would be 'good luck with that'.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26792080 - 06/29/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What are you defining as the populist right?



People like Saagar Enjeti, Tucker Carlson, and even qman.  They all predominantly agree that certain establishment values such as the prison state, the drug war, regime change wars, support for Israeli aggression, etc. are not good.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman]
    #26792126 - 06/29/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I think you should read some theory and develop a larger critique of the system as a whole. This piecemeal nibbling around the edges just ignores the systemic problems itself. It’s no different than the liberals thinking removing some statues will solve racism.




Oh, trust me. Some of my ideas for economic nationalism would NOT set very well with the current "capitalists".  Restructuring tax codes, currencies, asset classes and the distribution of wealth wouldn't resemble anything we see today.

So yeah, the "capitalists" could seek better conditions in Russia, China or some other place, and my answer would be 'good luck with that'.





So what? Doesn’t change anything I said.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26792130 - 06/29/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What are you defining as the populist right?



People like Saagar Enjeti, Tucker Carlson, and even qman.  They all predominantly agree that certain establishment values such as the prison state, the drug war, regime change wars, support for Israeli aggression, etc. are not good.




You don’t think Tucker Carlson is concerned with ethnicity?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26792148 - 06/29/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Of course he is, and that's why I generally don't like him.  But I agree with him on a lot of other issues and have posted dozens of his videos.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26792151 - 06/29/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Ok so claiming that the populist right doesn’t really care about race isn’t accurate.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26792161 - 06/29/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I guess what I was trying to say is we should have a party that is anti-establishment that focuses on the things both sides can agree on, and largely ignore other things.

We can't agree on the 2nd amendment?  Let's leave that alone.  We can't agree on gay marriage?  Let's leave that alone.  We can't agree on whether or not to take statues down?  Let's leave that alone.

We can agree on economic things that help everyone but the super rich?  Let's get it done!  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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