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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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"Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right"
    #26787297 - 06/27/20 02:29 PM (10 days, 10 hours ago)

Many people here have argued the establishment left and establishment right are one and the same.  Their primary goal is to support the super wealthy.  Their differences are typically non-monetary and relatively inconsequential to the billionaire class.

Meanwhile, the populist left and the populist right, whose primary concern is the 99%, are growing in popularity.


Glenn Greenwald wrote an excellent article on whether the populist left should work with the populist right where they have common ground.

Quote:

Along with vehement differences, there is ample agreement on specific, consequential issues between the factions that identify as the “populist left” and “populist right.” Often there is more agreement between them than either group finds with the establishment wing of the political party with which they most identify.




I find myself in that category, where I'd rather vote for a populist right candidate than an establishment left candidate.


In fact, I learned from the article that Saagar Enjeti (who co-hosts Rising with Krystal Ball) is a right wing populist.  I always thought he was left wing because we share so many common views.


Maybe we need a new "Populist" party?  Thoughts???


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26787699 - 06/27/20 05:50 PM (10 days, 6 hours ago)

How about a candidate that made sense on either side?  That's what we need.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26787738 - 06/27/20 06:20 PM (10 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I find myself in that category, where I'd rather vote for a populist right candidate than an establishment left candidate.



And that - no hyperbole here - is how you get fascism.


I have a lot to say about populism but I'll start by addressing the crux of the article you linked. The proposition in question: "But none of those serious divergences negates the fact that the left — which does not come close to claiming a majority of the population — finds common ground with the populist faction of the right on some of its most important political positions." I submit that this proposition is false.  Populists differ in how 'the people' are defined, but it can be based along class, ethnic, or national lines. I am not aware of any active example of right-wing populism that doesn't define 'the people' along ethnic and/or national lines. It doesn't matter if left-wing populism and right-wing populism both agree on what 'the people' deserve, if they disagree on who 'the people' fundamentally are. That isn't an 'agree to disagree' situation, but it seems the article merely glosses over this with a single sentence mentioning "racially divisive rhetoric". No amount of increased political power validates abandoning our friends and allies. Ever. Full stop.

The next question then goes: "And if holding pernicious views renders those on the populist right radioactive and off-limits, why is the same not true of establishment Democrats[...]?" Clearly there is a difference in the rhetoric of Republicans and Democrats so it shouldn't be confusing why one could be considered off-limits to many but not the other. Liberals prefer racismlite™. My personal answer is that the dilemma between allying with centrist establishment (because let's not kid ourselves about the Democratic party here) or right-wing populism is a false dichotomy. Fed up with the establishment? Maybe try organizing with your local anarchists before voting for another Trump or Bolsonaro.

But really this whole OP begs the question - forget left and right for the moment - why are we taking it for granted that populist leaders are beneficial rulers in the first place? Take the response to covid-19 for example: countries with populist leaders seem to have been handling the pandemic much worse - I'm talking order of magnitude worse. Brasil and the USA are currently responsible for nearly half of globally reported daily new infections; is this mere coincidence?

The Populist Harm to Democracy: An Empirical Assessment

Quote:

The first report in this series reviewed the extensive literature that addresses how to define populism and concluded that populists are united by two fundamental claims:
  • Elites and ‘outsiders’ are working against the interests of the ‘true people’.
  • Populists are the voice of the ‘true people’ of a country and nothing should stand in their way.

This conceptualisation of populism captures both its anti-elite orientation and its distinctive mode of political organisation, which involves bulldozing over political and civil-society institutions in the name of enacting the popular will.




Quote:

The paper finds that populist rule—whether from the right or the left—has a highly negative effect on political systems and leads to a significant risk of democratic erosion.

Key Findings
  • Populists last longer in office. On average, populist leaders stay in office twice as long as democratically elected leaders who are not populist. Populists are also nearly five times more likely than non-populists to survive in office for over ten years.

  • Populists often leave office in dramatic circumstances. Only 34 per cent of populist leaders leave office after free and fair elections or because they respect term limits. A much larger number are forced to resign or are impeached, or do not leave office at all.

  • Populists are far more likely to damage democracy. Overall, 23 per cent of populists cause significant democratic backsliding, compared with 6 per cent of non-populist democratically elected leaders. In other words, populist governments are about four times more likely than non-populist ones to harm democratic institutions.
     
  • Populists frequently erode checks and balances on the executive. Over 50 per cent of populist leaders amend or rewrite their countries’ constitutions, and many of these changes extend term limits or weaken checks on executive power. The evidence also suggests that populists’ attacks on the rule of law open the way to greater corruption: 40 per cent of populist leaders are indicted on corruption charges, and the countries they lead experience significant drops in international corruption rankings.
     
  • Populists attack individual rights. Under populist rule, freedom of the press falls by some 7 per cent, civil liberties by 8 per cent and political rights by 13 per cent.






Your enthusiasm for populist leaders is well-known on this forum. Given the above, perhaps you will take the time now to explain why?


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26787797 - 06/27/20 06:48 PM (10 days, 6 hours ago)

Is there even a populist left?


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Asante]
    #26787811 - 06/27/20 06:55 PM (10 days, 5 hours ago)

Theoretically populism could be anywhere on the political spectrum, but I can't think of any American left wing populists since Eugene Debs.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26787850 - 06/27/20 07:19 PM (10 days, 5 hours ago)

I feel like Democrats are really closet Greens and Republicans are closet Libertarians who have been brought in and sold on the current duopoly that has risen to the level of a joke in the words of Vermin Supreme.  Hashtag we are in on the joke.  Ha ha


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Asante]
    #26787898 - 06/27/20 07:42 PM (10 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Is there even a populist left?



The study I linked identified 46 populist leaders or political parties that have been in power across 33 democratic countries between 1990 and 2018 (so no Bolsonaro yet); 13 right-wing, 15 left-wing, 17 third-positionist. It looks like most of the "Socio-economic" populist governments would fall under the left-wing umbrella.

The entire report is worth a read if the topic interests.

Quote:

  • Argentina; Carlos Menem; 1989–1999; Anti-establishment
  • Argentina; Néstor Kirchner; 2003–2007; Socio-economic
  • Argentina; Cristina Fernández de Kirchner; 2007–2015; Socio-economic
  • Belarus; Alexander Lukashenko; 1994–; Anti-establishment
  • Bolivia; Evo Morales; 2006–; Socio-economic
  • Brazil; Fernando Collor de Mello; 1990–1992; Anti-establishment
  • Bulgaria; Boyko Borisov; 2009–2013, 2014–2017, 2017–; Anti-establishment
  • Czech Republic; Miloš Zeman; 1998–2002; Anti-establishment
  • Czech Republic; Andrej Babiš; 2017–; Anti-establishment
  • Ecuador; Abdalá Bucaram; 1996–1997; Socio-economic
  • Ecuador; Lucio Gutiérrez; 2003–2005; Socio-economic
  • Ecuador; Rafael Correa; 2007–2017; Socio-economic
  • Georgia; Mikheil Saakashvili; 2004–2007, 2008–2013; Anti-establishment
  • Greece; Syriza; 2015–; Socio-economic
  • Hungary; Viktor Orbán; 1998–2002, 2010–; Cultural
  • India; Narendra Modi; 2014–; Cultural
  • Indonesia; Joko Widodo; 2014–; Anti-establishment
  • Israel; Benjamin Netanyahu; 1996–1999, 2009–; Cultural
  • Italy; Silvio Berlusconi; 1994–1995, 2001–2006, 2008–2011, 2013; Anti-establishment
  • Italy; Five Star Movement/League coalition; 2018–; Anti-establishment
  • Japan; Junichiro Koizumi; 2001–2006; Anti-establishment
  • Macedonia; Nikola Gruevski; 2006–2016; Cultural
  • Nicaragua; Daniel Ortega; 2007–; Socio-economic
  • Paraguay; Fernando Lugo; 2008–2012; Socio-economic
  • Peru; Alberto Fujimori; 1990–2000; Anti-establishment
  • Philippines; Joseph Estrada; 1998–2001; Anti-establishment
  • Philippines; Rodrigo Duterte; 2016–; Cultural
  • Poland; Lech Walesa; 1990–1995; Anti-establishment
  • Poland; Law and Justice party; 2005–2010, 2015–; Cultural
  • Romania; Traian Basescu; 2004–2014; Anti-establishment
  • Russia; Vladimir Putin; 2000–; Cultural
  • Serbia; Aleksandar Vucic; 2014–2017, 2017–; Cultural
  • Slovakia; Vladimír Meciar; 1990–1998; Cultural
  • Slovakia; Robert Fico; 2006–2010, 2012–2018; Cultural
  • South Africa; Jacob Zuma; 2009–2018; Socio-economic
  • Sri Lanka; Mahinda Rajapaksa; 2005–2015, 2018–; Cultural
  • Taiwan; Chen Shui-bian; 2000–2008; Anti-establishment
  • Thailand; Thaksin Shinawatra; 2001–2006; Socio-economic
  • Thailand; Yingluck Shinawatra; 2011–2014; Socio-economic
  • Turkey; Recep Tayyip Erdogan; 2003–; Cultural
  • United States; Donald Trump; 2017–; Cultural
  • Venezuela; Rafael Caldera; 1994–1999; Anti-establishment
  • Venezuela; Hugo Chávez; 1999–2013; Socio-economic
  • Venezuela; Nicolás Maduro; 2013–; Socio-economic
  • Zambia; Michael Sata; 2011–2014; Socio-economic





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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26788430 - 06/28/20 12:27 AM (10 days, 21 minutes ago)

It appears we have two very different views of what populism is.

Saagar Enjeti is Indian, and I've never once heard him say/imply 'the people' are the whites, blacks, Indians, or whatever.

How I'm sure we have different definitions is this:

"On average, populist leaders stay in office twice as long as democratically elected leaders who are not populist...."

We're talking about two different things here, and I apologize if 'populist' has other meanings that I wasn't yet aware of.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26788573 - 06/28/20 02:19 AM (9 days, 22 hours ago)

That quote isn't to imply that populist leaders are not democratically elected - quite the opposite, the study specifically looked at populist governments only from nations considered functioning democracies. The report itself goes into more detail - read it like this :"On average, [democratically elected] populist leaders stay in office twice as long as democratically elected leaders who are not populist... "

But even so, what of it? Are you not going to bother providing your own contrasting definition for populism in response? Just like that discussions over?

What part of my supplied definition do you disagree with? Was it the first part: "Elites and ‘outsiders’ are working against the interests of the ‘true people’," if so perhaps you could clarify what the anti-establishment sentiment in your OP instead refers to? Or was it the second part: "Populists are the voice of the ‘true people’ of a country and nothing should stand in their way," if so can you explain the observed tendency for political and civil-society institutions to compromised in the name of enacting the popular will?

As for that Saagar Enjeti red herring - I specifically said right-wing populism "define[s] 'the people' along ethnic and/or national lines" - nowhere did I imply explicit racism was a prerequisite. Furthermore, if you take a look at the basic description for cultural populism (the type you currently have in the USA) you will read: "Cultural populism claims that the true people are the native members of the nation-state, and outsiders can include immigrants, criminals, ethnic and religious minorities, and cosmopolitan elites. Cultural populism tends to emphasise religious traditionalism, law and order, sovereignty, and painting migrants as enemies." Do you still think his published viewpoints don't fit much of that description?

Obviously you were interested enough in your (first?) encounter with populism that you made this thread, and many of the world leaders you quite often defend on this forum find themselves on that list above of populist leaders - so clearly you have an affinity for the ideology. The two studies I linked (one in each prior post) are excellent empirical studies on the topic. You weren't aware of the definition of populist before making this thread? Well take the opportunity to read those reports and then maybe we'll be able to continue this conversation.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26788857 - 06/28/20 06:02 AM (9 days, 18 hours ago)

I think populism has a similar problem as libertarianism with consensus on what it means.

I'm not at all optimistic about left and right populists working together, or left and right non-populists working together.  Everything I say here is in reference to the U.S. In the 21st century we have very little experience with people working together on one issue for the common good, then going their separate ways. What we have is two separate armies, in combat.

The left is wed to identity politics and the right abhors it. That makes compromise problematic. If populism is being against elites, then populism is about social class. Some people think class is the primary distinction. Other people think class, race, gender, sexual orientation, age, etc. are all primary. I'm in the second group. 

I'm having a memory lapse right now, and I can't think of that political mechanism that you favor, and I agree with. The one about deciding on single issues, rather than having many loaded together in one bill. The thing is, there is a reason why the power structure has not allowed that and I doubt that will change. I think that's the crucial stumbling block to what you are proposing. I may be wrong but I think the conservatives and centrists are against that mechanism because it would lead to socialism, and incrementally, it would. 

Right now, despite Bernie Sanders falling in the primaries, the movement is making definite inroads in the political system, and that's encouraging, but all I see is more polarization.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26788866 - 06/28/20 06:11 AM (9 days, 18 hours ago)

Sorry, I meant that as a response to FalconW


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26788925 - 06/28/20 07:31 AM (9 days, 17 hours ago)

Thank you.

I just realized that the Occupy movement's battle of the 99% against the 1% by nature is populism.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Asante] * 1
    #26789202 - 06/28/20 10:39 AM (9 days, 14 hours ago)

If populism in the US were to unite the left and right, and simultaneously value citizenship at the same time, why would anyone find that problematic? 

I'm really not too worried if migrants/illegals find that makes them feel like "outsiders". If populism brings economic nationalism, it benefits both the left and right. I'm not going to concern myself with someone with some religious viewpoint that isn't in the majority. As an atheist, I could give two shits about the affects of populism and religious minorities, it's silly paranoia in my opinion.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Asante] * 1
    #26789211 - 06/28/20 10:41 AM (9 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Thank you.

I just realized that the Occupy movement's battle of the 99% against the 1% by nature is populism.




Yes, economic nationalism unites the working class regardless of race, religion, ethnicity and other factors.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman]
    #26789217 - 06/28/20 10:42 AM (9 days, 14 hours ago)

Rightwing populism all too often amounts to racism though.

We, the people, except the foillowing list of minorities.

Rightwing populism: "We the people say that immigrants arent us, the people."


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman] * 2
    #26789377 - 06/28/20 11:52 AM (9 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

qman said:
If populism in the US were to unite the left and right, and simultaneously value citizenship at the same time, why would anyone find that problematic? 

I'm really not too worried if migrants/illegals find that makes them feel like "outsiders".





Looks like you answered your own question there bud.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26789406 - 06/28/20 12:06 PM (9 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I think populism has a similar problem as libertarianism with consensus on what it means.




It is indeed a nebulous term, which is why agreeing on the definition is essential before we can hold a discussion. If you didn't already check it out, this report titled "Populists in Power Around the World" provides the best attempt at answering that question that I was able to find:

Quote:

This first report has a more modest goal: to define populism from a global perspective and identify some of its key trends since 1990. Only with a clear and systematic understanding of the phenomenon can political leaders begin to offer meaningful and credible alternatives to populism.

Reaching this clear and systematic understanding, however, is easier said than done. Even among the community of populism experts, there are disagreements about how to define populism and which actors qualify as populists. This report puts forward a simple definition of populism and relies on a wealth of academic and expert knowledge to identify cases of populism around the world, seeking to cover those cases on which there is the most consensus. Yet, any effort that did not acknowledge significant difficulty and uncertainty in such an endeavour would be insincere.




I recommend you read the entire report (and the follow-up report "The Populist Harm to Democracy: An Empirical Assessment") because they are full of interesting and relevant information, as well as the methodology behind their conclusions.

The essential definition of populism that they arrive at:
Quote:

Populism contains two primary claims:
  • A country’s ‘true people’ are locked into conflict with outsiders, including establishment elites.
  • Nothing should constrain the will of the true people.





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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Asante]
    #26789486 - 06/28/20 12:39 PM (9 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Thank you.

I just realized that the Occupy movement's battle of the 99% against the 1% by nature is populism.



The Occupy movement undoubtedly had populist tendencies, but it also had significant anarchist tendencies. Populism is a statist ideology - identifying the People as the source of state power and the idea that the state should act in its interests - but until the physical occupations ended, the Occupy movement favoured non-hierarchical direct democracy rather than representative government.

There's a great book about how the Occupy movement introduced anarchist ideas into mainstream protest culture that I highly recommend as the best history on the movement. Anarcho-populism involves the translation into a popular vernacular of typical anarchist themes, and the adoption of a language that can make anti-authoritarianism and anti-statism resonant at the time of a financial crisis. That was the Occupy movement until it was removed from the streets and relegated to social media.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: qman]
    #26789746 - 06/28/20 02:45 PM (9 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

qman said:
If populism in the US were to unite the left and right, and simultaneously value citizenship at the same time, why would anyone find that problematic? 

I'm really not too worried if migrants/illegals find that makes them feel like "outsiders". If populism brings economic nationalism, it benefits both the left and right. I'm not going to concern myself with someone with some religious viewpoint that isn't in the majority. As an atheist, I could give two shits about the affects of populism and religious minorities, it's silly paranoia in my opinion.




A lot of people on the left would find that problematic.

I am on the exact page as you on religion. The left is mostly pro-immigration. This will be more so as Bernie fades into elder statesman and AOC takes over symbolic leadership of the progressive left, which I think has already happened. Economic nationalism is not a label that will work with them. We equate that with racism. The American left does not draw the line at national borders. If that is a barrier it will remain one.

There are left populist leaders in Eastern Europe with strong platforms on limiting immigration. There is no one here of prominence advocating that, at least nobody on the left.


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Re: "Populist Left and Populist Right" vs "Establishment Left and Establishment Right" [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26789781 - 06/28/20 03:00 PM (9 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

qman said:
If populism in the US were to unite the left and right, and simultaneously value citizenship at the same time, why would anyone find that problematic? 

I'm really not too worried if migrants/illegals find that makes them feel like "outsiders". If populism brings economic nationalism, it benefits both the left and right. I'm not going to concern myself with someone with some religious viewpoint that isn't in the majority. As an atheist, I could give two shits about the affects of populism and religious minorities, it's silly paranoia in my opinion.




A lot of people on the left would find that problematic.

I am on the exact page as you on religion. The left is mostly pro-immigration. This will be more so as Bernie fades into elder statesman and AOC takes over symbolic leadership of the progressive left, which I think has already happened. Economic nationalism is not a label that will work with them. We equate that with racism. The American left does not draw the line at national borders. If that is a barrier it will remain one.

There are left populist leaders in Eastern Europe with strong platforms on limiting immigration. There is no one here of prominence advocating that, at least nobody on the left.




And that's why the left will continue to fail US citizens regardless of who's in office.

The Elite have convinced the left that immigration is a great social-economic policy despite the fact it clearly isn't for the working class.

AOC has already proven she's a representative of the corporate elite every chance she gets.  I predicted over a year ago that was going to happen, fuck AOC and her sellout agenda.

Economic nationalism should work for anyone regardless of their demographic, it's only problematic when you represent corporate interests.


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