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InvisibleFriedEggS
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Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 2,536
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26785554 - 06/26/20 07:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

EntheoGod said:
Here are the lids that I use. The polyfill is stuffed as tight as I can manage. Some of them so tight that the needle is making squeaking noises as I place it through the polyfill during inoculation.





one more thing


those jars will work fine but they aren't necessary. i use unmodified plastic lids. to use them, screw the lid on tight, and then unscrew slightly about 1/8th of a turn. it should be snug but loose enough to allow a little gas exchange. if the lid is too tight your growth will stall at about 50% but can be reignited by unscrewing the lid more. if it's too loose it'll either dry out or get contaminated. at first it sounds like it's a recipe for contamination but trust me, it's not.
set the jar somewhere and don't disturb it. be careful when picking it up. don't handle the jar by the lid.



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(Yes, the egg is real)

How to post pics


Edited by FriedEgg (06/26/20 07:31 PM)


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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: FriedEgg]
    #26785572 - 06/26/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I will wait until I get clean agar, I dont think BRF would be much faster than me simply working with the agar and getting it to grain once its cleaned up. I flame the needle after use and before putting the cap back on it. But I havent re used a syringe several times ever. I only recently used it to inoculate a set of agar plates because I had some spores leftover and didnt have the syringe cap to replace the needle after I used it. From what I understand, storing the leftover syringe would be bad but it would b much worse if i were using that leftover syringe on the grains, which Im not. If theres any bacteria in the syringe due to the needle and me storing it for a couple of days then I could easily get it clean through agar. This is all assuming I am applying the tips that everyone has given me already on here. I mean if I were to believe everything I have read then I should  also assume that even bacterial syringes can produce healthy spawn when put to wbs. NOT GOING TO BE DOING THAT but its been said on here by TC's along with long time growers who arent TCs.

I store the leftover spores inside the original package they come in. They come in a plastic bag thats inside of a box. After using the syringe with the needle. I flame the needle and while its relatively hot i then place the cap for the needle back on and put it immediately inside the plastic bag and place that inside my drawer thats in the same room as everything else. I was told that would be safe as long as I wasnt using it on grains after storing that way. And I am definitely not doing that.  BTW the way I flame the needle isnt a simple lighter. I use a butane torch. I get that when I say I flame the needle it sounds like Im just putting it to a flame and hoping that kills anything but I torch it til red hot.




I look forward to seeing something clean and beautiful come from all this work. I want to see a beautiful agar plate with some nice rhizomorphic growth.

EDIT: Again I noticed you guys posted before I could type out this book of a post lol. I will do that as soon as my new plates come in and while im waiting for the ones I have currently to show me any signs of growth. I look forward to this so much right now. Im getting excited just thinking about all the possibilities :smile: Ill keep to the basics since I am a beginner though. As soon as those new plates come in the mail ill be doing exactly what you said and dropping a colonized grain on a few of them and cleaning that up from there. Once I have something clean the point will be to prep some grains like I normally would and noc them up using a wedge or a few wedges per jar.

The lids you mentioned do look nice. Especially if I completely stop inoculating via syringe but I do like the not having to open the entire lid to inoculate. I was hoping to get good enough that I make Liquid inoculant eventually and that would feel much safer to me, if I were to inoculate it through the lid like I have already. Now that I am thinking about it, it sounds like im just making excuses to not get those lids. Ill get em for sure. If I have to modify them at all then so be it. Not seeing why I couldnt just open the lid inside my SAB to do the inoculating via Agar wedge or LI.


Edited by EntheoGod (06/26/20 07:37 PM)


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InvisibleFriedEggS
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Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 2,536
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26785611 - 06/26/20 07:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

storing a leftover syringe is fine as long as you don't contaminate it. that's why i explained to use the tip cap and not the needle. i think storing it with the needle still attached is what caused all my problems in the beginning. i have syringes that are a year old and they are probably fine.


yes, even bacterial syringes can produce healthy spawn when put to wbs.... but it's not reliable or consistent :wink:


As soon as what new plates come in the mail? i thought you already have plates

instead of LC, look into G2G (grain to grain). LC is hard to work with and can cause bacteria problems if not done properly. G2G is much more reliable.

those polyfil lids are really only used for injecting into grain jars. to do A2G (agar to grain) or G2G, you'll need to open the lids anyways. and don't worry, opening a lid isn't that risky in a still air box.

good job so far. you'll be there soon :thumbup:


--------------------

(Yes, the egg is real)

How to post pics


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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: FriedEgg]
    #26785619 - 06/26/20 07:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yea I already have like 7 plates but theyre a bit occupied at the moment with agar that I have inoculated with a newer syringe and am waiting for them to germinate. I have more plates coming in the mail and when i get those Ill prep up some more agar and drop some grains onto it if nothing else turns out better for me in the meantime.


Gotcha about the LI. Ill hold off on that until I get way better and more consistent results. I just see the growth rates of LI and it makes me so jealous. HAHA. I cant help it. But for the better of the seeds Ill stick to developing my agar and cleaning it up. Doing a few transfers and then inoculating via agar wedges. Once the jars I inoculate with agar wedges do well I will then try doing G2G. This feels like itll help a lot with cleaning up my act so to speak. 🤣


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InvisibleFriedEggS
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26785629 - 06/26/20 07:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

you're on the right track now :thumbup:


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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: FriedEgg]
    #26785636 - 06/26/20 07:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

btw i just seen that amateur mycologist united link in your sig. I appreciate people like that. Thank you. I may end up using that sometime soon if I have much trouble with anything else. I will continue to update this thread with the progress as it happens.

Next post on this thread will be when I simmer the seeds I have soaking. I am about to go change out the water its been soaking in for about 9 hours for hot water again. Also gonna toss a bit of gypsum in the soak. Not much just a pinch since I am about completely out. Gotta get more soon or might not since I have seen its not needed at all. Gonna post about the seeds and their hydration in the next update to this thread. I will show a seed before soaking and after to show what happens to my seeds in 24 hours. I have read they are suppose to double in size about. I have never, in the 5 years ive been doing this, ever seen my seeds double in size after hydration. It always looks about the same to me. Im hoping to change that with this batch. :smile:


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Offlinelateforthafuture
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26785664 - 06/26/20 08:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

G2G can be as fast or faster than LC. If you only put 1-2cc of liquid culture it's probably going to take a few weeks to colonize. If you put 5cc + of LC it will be much faster.

I love G2G, it is crazy fast... you'll have more clean spawn than you know what do with. If I G2G 1 qt to 10 qts...they are usually done in 7-10 days. If I do one qt to 7 or even 5 qts...they are done in under a week.

LC vs G2G speed is more about how much inoculate you use, IMHO. If you want your jars done fast... use more inoculant (G2G or LC).

I like G2G because I can visually see what's going into my receiving jars...kinda hard to tell with LC, especially if it's been sitting a while. I have some oyster liquid culture that looks crazy...but I just nocced up some jars with it and it's fine.


--------------------
"Not what could have been, or what should have been, but what will be" -Self
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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: lateforthafuture]
    #26785691 - 06/26/20 08:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I am just stoked at the thought of not encountering contaminations as often or ever. As well as being able to know that what I put in the grains isnt bad. I do have this question though while we're here. How long, once started germinating on the agar, should I wait until transferring to another new plate? I was thinking you should let the mycelium grow for a few days to a week before trying to transfer anything to another plate but is that wrong? I havent taken the time to search this yet so I should probably just do that.

I have all the time in the world to do this so whatever happens happens but I will do everything in my power to prevent anything bad. I am just hoping I can pull this off with as little contams as possible in the agar. So far so good. Even on the first batch of agar that I tossed due to me being an idiot, I didnt see any bad contaminations. 👍 You live and you learn. I love that about this hobby. I've learned a ton today alone, so much so that I am still trying to get it all in my memory. I have a notepad with tons of quotes from TC's about agar and even a few from this thread alone with you guys helping me!


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Offlinecheckmatsis
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: lateforthafuture]
    #26785697 - 06/26/20 08:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

@Friedegg (or anyone) Is the simmer after soaking necessary? Wouldn't the grain be more or less cooking in a PC, or while steaming? Seems like an unnecessary step.


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Offlinelateforthafuture
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26785710 - 06/26/20 08:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

EntheoGod said:
I am just stoked at the thought of not encountering contaminations as often or ever. As well as being able to know that what I put in the grains isnt bad. I do have this question though while we're here. How long, once started germinating on the agar, should I wait until transferring to another new plate? I was thinking you should let the mycelium grow for a few days to a week before trying to transfer anything to another plate but is that wrong? I havent taken the time to search this yet so I should probably just do that.

I have all the time in the world to do this so whatever happens happens but I will do everything in my power to prevent anything bad. I am just hoping I can pull this off with as little contams as possible in the agar. So far so good. Even on the first batch of agar that I tossed due to me being an idiot, I didnt see any bad contaminations. 👍 You live and you learn. I love that about this hobby. I've learned a ton today alone, so much so that I am still trying to get it all in my memory. I have a notepad with tons of quotes from TC's about agar and even a few from this thread alone with you guys helping me!




I would transfer as soon as you see enough healthy mycelium that you can grab.  The longer you wait to transfer the more chance a contam has to present itself. Get the healthy mycelium to a new clean plate ASAP. I couldn't give you an exact time frame but it's days not weeks.


--------------------
"Not what could have been, or what should have been, but what will be" -Self
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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: checkmatsis]
    #26785718 - 06/26/20 08:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

checkmatsis said:
@Friedegg (or anyone) Is the simmer after soaking necessary? Wouldn't the grain be more or less cooking in a PC, or while steaming? Seems like an unnecessary step.





It isnt necessary. The only thing thats necessary is getting your grains properly hydrated. :smile: Thats what I gather from all the information I have sifted through over the past few days. Some soak for 24 hours and no simmer, some soak for 10 hours, some only simmer and dont soak.

Its all about proper hydration of your seeds and obviously clean spawn.

I have read though, that it does help in certain situations, like if your seeds arent getting fully hydrated before tons of endospores germinate in the soak. Soaking past a certain point is detrimental to the seeds. You soak until the seed is either fully hydrated and you dont need to simmer, OR you soak until you reach a point that you are possible germinating too many endospores for the pressure cooker to kill off. Which happens, from what I have read, around 36 hours for most people.  I believe thats why its so promoted on here that you soak for 24 hours then simmer. If your seeds are fully hydrated in 24 hours then a simmer wont help much other than drying the outside of the seeds.


Edited by EntheoGod (06/26/20 08:48 PM)


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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: lateforthafuture]
    #26785722 - 06/26/20 08:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lateforthafuture said:
Quote:

EntheoGod said:
I am just stoked at the thought of not encountering contaminations as often or ever. As well as being able to know that what I put in the grains isnt bad. I do have this question though while we're here. How long, once started germinating on the agar, should I wait until transferring to another new plate? I was thinking you should let the mycelium grow for a few days to a week before trying to transfer anything to another plate but is that wrong? I havent taken the time to search this yet so I should probably just do that.

I have all the time in the world to do this so whatever happens happens but I will do everything in my power to prevent anything bad. I am just hoping I can pull this off with as little contams as possible in the agar. So far so good. Even on the first batch of agar that I tossed due to me being an idiot, I didnt see any bad contaminations. �� You live and you learn. I love that about this hobby. I've learned a ton today alone, so much so that I am still trying to get it all in my memory. I have a notepad with tons of quotes from TC's about agar and even a few from this thread alone with you guys helping me!




I would transfer as soon as you see enough healthy mycelium that you can grab.  The longer you wait to transfer the more chance a contam has to present itself. Get the healthy mycelium to a new clean plate ASAP. I couldn't give you an exact time frame but it's days not weeks.





Sounds like a plan. Ill be sure to do that as soon as I see myc that looks good enough to grab. Im sure ill post on here to gather opinions from folks like you beforehand. I like getting opinions first especially since I am new to agar.


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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26785817 - 06/26/20 09:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Update: The 7 qts of wbs that I have soaking have been soaking for around 10-11 hours, I decided to change the water out for new hot water.



Before rinsing a few more times and changing the water.


After


I didnt throw in any gypsum because well, I am about completely out and decided to save what I have for the CVG when I need it. Now to wait until tomorrow around 12 noon and then start a short simmer (if needed).

Here is what the grain looked like on the inside after the short 11 hour soak so far. Couldnt get the cam to focus but you can still see what I mean.


I want the grain to be translucent all the way through, you can see its getting towards the center but isnt soaked through just yet. Another 11 -12 hours should do it but maybe not for all the grains so I am likely still going to simmer when the soak is up.


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InvisibleFriedEggS
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: checkmatsis]
    #26785897 - 06/26/20 10:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

checkmatsis said:
@Friedegg (or anyone) Is the simmer after soaking necessary? Wouldn't the grain be more or less cooking in a PC, or while steaming? Seems like an unnecessary step.




some people have success without simmering but i dont. i don't like doing extra work so trust me i've tried avoiding the simmer step. but whenever i do, the top 20% of my grain won't colonize because it dries out. i've tried soaking 24 hours and still adding some water to my jars but all that does is make the bottom of the jar mushy and the top of the jar underhydrated.


this is the shroomery member "gr0wer" and he doesn't simmer. but he only grows edibles. oysters might be able to tolerate it more than cubes. i dont know.


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Offlinecheckmatsis
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: FriedEgg]
    #26786376 - 06/27/20 05:21 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

@EntheoGod Yeah lots of variety in grain preparation and all seem to yield results as long as (as you said) hydration and sterilization are properly achieved. I'll be soaking for 12 hours, simmer (still out on this), 45-minute drain, then steam sterilize for 6 hours. This should allow for proper hydration and sterilization in my experience.

@Friedegg No extra work for me either lol. Wouldn't shaking your jar after some colonization is achieved help mitigate the dry top and moist bottom and allow for a more full colonization of your WBS jars? Thanks for the video.


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InvisibleFriedEggS
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: checkmatsis]
    #26787270 - 06/27/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

checkmatsis said:
@Friedegg No extra work for me either lol. Wouldn't shaking your jar after some colonization is achieved help mitigate the dry top and moist bottom and allow for a more full colonization of your WBS jars? Thanks for the video.



it didn't help when i tried


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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: FriedEgg]
    #26787411 - 06/27/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I can only imagine how many people have read this post and decided not to reply.

Op: are you venting your PC and then letting it cool overnight before removing the jars?

The agar: do you have a picture of the clean agar you are planning on using next.

The syringes: unless your getting them from a vendor with a centerfugue, no syringe is clean.

Your getting bacteria in your spawn. So there are many ways of that happening. Not getting a proper PC run, usually an air bubble in the Pac preventing the steam from fully sterilizing your jars. Could also be faulty lids. Could be bad inoculate.

Just skip syringes to grain cause that will always be the biggest failure point. It has worked before for people, but if your trying to get clean and healthy spawn. Agar to properly sterilized grain is the best way to go.

Also are you using a flowhood or SAB?

Grain prep: load up a pot 3/4 full of water and bring it to a full rolling boil. Then add WBS no rinsing just dump it in.

After about 20 minuets kill the heat and strain immediately. Then lay out on a beach towel or news print in a large even surface to steam dry. Give it an hour and don't forget to stir the grains to allow all of the steam to dry the outside of the grain. Then load and PC.


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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: Sockadin]
    #26787568 - 06/27/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sockadin said:
I can only imagine how many people have read this post and decided not to reply.

Op: are you venting your PC and then letting it cool overnight before removing the jars?

The agar: do you have a picture of the clean agar you are planning on using next.

The syringes: unless your getting them from a vendor with a centerfugue, no syringe is clean.

Your getting bacteria in your spawn. So there are many ways of that happening. Not getting a proper PC run, usually an air bubble in the Pac preventing the steam from fully sterilizing your jars. Could also be faulty lids. Could be bad inoculate.

Just skip syringes to grain cause that will always be the biggest failure point. It has worked before for people, but if your trying to get clean and healthy spawn. Agar to properly sterilized grain is the best way to go.

Also are you using a flowhood or SAB?

Grain prep: load up a pot 3/4 full of water and bring it to a full rolling boil. Then add WBS no rinsing just dump it in.

After about 20 minuets kill the heat and strain immediately. Then lay out on a beach towel or news print in a large even surface to steam dry. Give it an hour and don't forget to stir the grains to allow all of the steam to dry the outside of the grain. Then load and PC.





Why would you say people are reading the post and deciding not to respond?

About the Venting, no I have not been doing that properly as I stated in a few posts previously. I have read about this just a couple days ago and thats one of the biggest reasons I have WBS being pressure cooked right now. I plan to do this with the batch I have currently being pressure cooked. I will remove it after around 90 minutes, might let it go for longer today, then I will place it in the room where everything else is kept. I allow it to cool in that room until the pressure drops just enough for the pressure gauge to go to 0 and the air vent/cover lock, as well as the overpressure plug to drop. Then I will usually immediately take the jars out of the pressure cooker while still hot to the touch, shake them around to distribute water thats built up and I place them immediately inside of the SAB until time to inoculate them. I allow them to cool completely inside the SAB. I know now that this is probably the wrong way of doing it so this time with the batch I have going I will do as you said, and let the pressure drop completely then remove the pressure regulator to allow it to vent properly and allow everything to cool inside the cooker overnight until its completely cool jars and all.

When I am pressure cooking the seeds, I always make sure to let steam vent from it for a few minutes before placing the weight on top. I wait until I see pure steam pushing out then place the weight on and it goes to 15psi and I turn the heat down to medium and let it sit there for 90 minutes or more, like I said.

About the Agar, I have pics of the ones that were most recently inoculated that I didnt think were bad. I decided to toss a whole batch that evidently could have been used to transfer and clean up the myc. Its only been a few days since I inoculated this agar in this picture. 



You cant really see the agar but I dont feel safe opening the lids to take a picture of it. I can show you a pic of what the agar I previously made which looks identical before inoculation.


I did accidentally use about 1/4 cc per agar plate which I know is too much, the syringe was pretty tough to push down and everytime id try getting a single drop ready, it ended up pushing out much more than I needed. Even ended up squirting some of it on the bottom of the SAB by accident but still managed to inoculate the plates with much less than my first attempt. I am still waiting to see results but its only been a few days so far. Like 2 days or 3.

I am using a ghetto looking flowhood tbh. But it gets the job done. I left one agar plate open to the air for a few minutes and closed it to see what contaminations may have fell inside it but nothing so far. The reason I did this was because It made me feel better even using the SAB I have. This is the SAB. The aluminium flaps are just there to make me feel better about leaving things inside it when I am not around. I dont have the means to make a proper flow hood at the moment. Money has been super tight.


I make sure to spray soapy water inside before placing the things that are sterile in it. I follow proper SAB sterile technique to a T with the SAB I have. I even use it with the Grain jars when I inoculate those. The grains that I showed earlier that had no signs at all after about a week are finally starting to show the slightest signs of growth. Nothing to get excited about though. Ill post a pic of it.(I cant get this photo properly oriented -__-)


About the Syringes, I am not an idiot so I doubt the vendors I am purchasing from have a centrifuge. I could be wrong. Not that likely though.

I have tried that grain prep as you mentioned above and it did next to nothing to hydrate my seeds through. Hell a 24 hour soak doesnt even hydrate them fully. Which is why I decided to start simmering again.

I noticed the seeds were rather dry on the inside but when I simmer them I go from this.



To this after a simmer.


Noticing barely any burst seeds.

After simmering this latest batch I placed them on a towel to dry until dry enough to pass the TP test.


They fall right off the TP without sticking at all. I noticed they werent nearly as sticky this time as well. Likely due to me changing the soak water several times and rinsing the seeds several times throughout the soak. The simmer seems to have made a difference there too. I made a batch that wasnt simmered and noticed that it was rather sticky before simmering and lost that quality afterwards.


I am absolutely going to be working for clean spawn now, after this batch of seeds I have in the pressure cooker right now is inoculated and waiting. I wont be making any more until I am able to get the agar cleaned up properly.

I follow these teks when it comes to making the agar and pressure cook it for roughly 40 minutes, following the same steps I do for grain when it comes to waiting for the pressure to drop inside except I paid more attention to the agar tek and did actually properly vent the pressure cooker then.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23188000

I understand no syringe will be bacteria or contam free. I know syringes aren’t clean. I am only using the syringe on this batch of seeds because I can without wasting much and I can use the leftover to start more agar considering I’ll only be using 7ccs of this syringe today. I have to make this known because a lot of people keep saying don’t use the syringe. I won’t be after today. I promise that. I need to clean up some agar and start doing it that way. Don’t get that the wrong way though I absolutely love that you all have been so helpful! 😃 just have to make that known.

I’ll be showing every single step I take with what I do today once I’ve completed everything up until inoculating.

I really appreciate you stopping by to give your input and advice. :smile: Any help given is very much needed and ingrained in my brain (no pun intended)


Edited by EntheoGod (06/27/20 02:45 PM)


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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26787604 - 06/27/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds good. The only thing I would do differently is leave the weight on the vent pipe and let the PC cool naturally over night. If you pull it off you can create a vacuum as the pressure stabilizes and pull open air into the PC. Not the worst thing in the world cause the poly would ideally catch and contamination. But just a best technique kinda deal for me.

The reason I said alot of people probably read this but didn't respond is because in my opinion early in the thread there was some iffy advise given to you. Dare I say bad.


Also there are vendors who have centerfugue but no plugging sponsors so I won't say who.


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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Help me find my error in WBS prep? [Re: Sockadin]
    #26787643 - 06/27/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I gotcha yea that makes sense. I try using my own sense when doing this as well so I’ll be doing exactly what you see me describe in the last post. I would think if someone sees bad advice being given they should feel obligated to correct it but that’s just how I am. I want everyone to have a good experience of this!  I wish I knew who had the centrifuge cause that’s all I’d buy from but that’s likely why we can’t plug sponsors on here and considering they pay for advertising equally. Lol  but please if anyone sees bad advice feel absolutely free to correct it and me. I love finding out facts and if I’m doing something wrong I NEED to correct it. But as for this batch today I’ll do exactly as you said and let it completely cool in the pc overnight I just worry about not shaking the jars while hot to disperse built up water. I suppose I could still easily do this once it’s cooled overnight! :smile: I also get paranoid about leaving the foil on top because it makes me fear water building up under the foil and on top of the lid. Probably not as big of a problem as I imagine.


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