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SporeJunkie
Pöåšt Šhïttēr



Registered: 11/30/18
Posts: 2,106
Loc: TheOnlyTenISee
Last seen: 2 months, 12 days
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Apple sauce licks donkeys for diamonds covered in rust covered cherries. Don’t not believe me? Answer the problem told to the board that wizards lick on with their toenails. Hello
-------------------- Royale with cheese
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 2 days, 9 hours
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Quote:
Buster_Brown said: Rome could have used someone like Huehy to turn Hannibal away from the gates of Rome after he had crossed the Alps on his elephant.
I rode an elephant once...
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 2 days, 9 hours
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:
Buster_Brown said: Rome could have used someone like Huehy to turn Hannibal away from the gates of Rome after he had crossed the Alps on his elephant.
I rode an elephant once...
And here you be filing them (rowing)
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WASTE

Registered: 12/15/19
Posts: 114
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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I can empathize with pedophiles to an extent, no one is born wanting to develop an attraction to children yet it happens. Just try imagining the self hatred and confusion that would arise from having a socially taboo and immoral sexual attraction which you have no control over. But I have a harder time extending sympathy to those who act on those urges, I would still want for them to receive help and counseling (as I would rapists, murderers, ect.), but any sexual conduct lacking consent is wrong in my eyes.
Some related questions: How do we decide the ideal age of consent? Which societal forces lead people to develop pedophilic complexes? How do we mitigate these forces? What is a broad definition of pedophilia that isn't influenced by law? Is pedophilia wrong in and of itself?
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: Pedophila [Re: WASTE]
#26785185 - 06/26/20 04:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Seems nature given puberty would have the legal age lowered a bit..
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SporeJunkie
Pöåšt Šhïttēr



Registered: 11/30/18
Posts: 2,106
Loc: TheOnlyTenISee
Last seen: 2 months, 12 days
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Re: Pedophila [Re: WASTE]
#26785215 - 06/26/20 04:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Empathize or sympathize? I can sympathize to an extent just because I feel like a lot of times they’ve had fucked up child hoods or what not. However, I stop sympathizing completely once they cross the line front fantasy to actually harming a child. In whatever way that may be.
-------------------- Royale with cheese
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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I wonder how it was regarded in the Old World & how prevalent it was back then.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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evlyshrooms
willi weilii



Registered: 08/08/19
Posts: 2,272
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Yeah im glad im not a pedo. Must be rough being attracted to a demographic that would be severely damaged by you acting on your desires. Constant mental battle I'd imagine
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WASTE

Registered: 12/15/19
Posts: 114
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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You're right, empathize may be too strong of a word in this case. But thinking about queer people and mixed race couples, a lot of people can generally relate to the experience of being attracted to a person/demographic who society/friends/family deem to be off limits (due to faulty moral reasoning), causing a sense of shame for an attraction they feel implicitly. I think we can empathize with them to that extent, but not when they act on those pedophilic urges.
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SporeJunkie
Pöåšt Šhïttēr



Registered: 11/30/18
Posts: 2,106
Loc: TheOnlyTenISee
Last seen: 2 months, 12 days
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Re: Pedophila [Re: WASTE]
#26785542 - 06/26/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well yeah I totally feel ya there
-------------------- Royale with cheese
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Acting on pedophyllic urges = harm to young person ?
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SporeJunkie
Pöåšt Šhïttēr



Registered: 11/30/18
Posts: 2,106
Loc: TheOnlyTenISee
Last seen: 2 months, 12 days
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I hate to respond to this right now because I’m fucked up and don’t wanna screw up my response but here goes: not inherently, no. If there are already inappropriate photos of minors that people get off to, then I don’t necessarily that act in and of itself harms children. However, anyway/anyhow that point is led up to is definitely harm to a young person. It’s just not natural.
-------------------- Royale with cheese
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Quote:
Buster_Brown said: Okay, for what it's worth we have brought in the possibility that the media inflates an emotional response.
The media is irrelevant here as a causative factor. Neither is it relevant with individuals who have normal, healthy moral development. I worked with adolescents for almost 30 years. Many of them had been raped. Several of them had been incestuously raped, one delivered her biological father's baby. Often the sexual abuse began around age 10 before secondary sexual characteristics had developed. Once a child has secondary sexual characteristics, technically it is not called pedophilia but ephebophilia. Age isn't the issue specifically. I've seen a 13 year old who was 5'11" tall with a figure like and 18 year old girl. When she spoke you then realized how young she actually was. Her mother was beside herself for all the males hitting on her.
But my point is that children who are sexually exploited at an early age often do not develop normally and healthily along several developmental vectors. Pathologies set in with precocious sexuality. Moral development is interfered with, the ability to trust is interfered with. Significantly severe abuse can result in Dissociative Identity Disorder (formerly, Multiple Identity Disorder). Often early sexual experience leads to the victim becoming a sex worker. A majority of sex workers sustained child sexual abuse. I tried to counsel a junior high school boy and his sister who had been sexually abused. Neither would open up about it. He went on to rape a very young family member and since it was not reported to the police and he was not dealt with he went on to rape another baby and killed it. He was sentenced to life in prison. https://www.rapsheetz.com/florida/doc-prisoner/COLON_JUAN/445612 There are few things worse than pedophilia and for the life of me I can't think of any.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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evlyshrooms
willi weilii



Registered: 08/08/19
Posts: 2,272
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What a vicious cycle. Sexually abused children grow up to sexually abuse children. Sad
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WASTE

Registered: 12/15/19
Posts: 114
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: Acting on pedophyllic urges = harm to young person ?
How about: adults engaging in sexual acts with pre pubescent children = harmful to those children? Maybe MarkostheGnostic can throw us a few studies, I'm not super educated on the topic and found his post to be very informative. My basis for classifying all sexual acts between children and adults as immoral rests on my belief that children are incapable of consenting to sexual acts, and that all sexual encounters lacking consent are harmful.
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Apples in Mono
Not a puppet


Registered: 09/21/17
Posts: 3,240
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I think it's important to avoid conflating our impressions of what we see represented in media with the the general state of things in reality.
Most pedophiles probably never touch children, and most people who sexually abuse children aren't pedophiles.
I think the most important conversation we can have regarding pedophiles today is about the counterproductive stigma surrounding them. people need to realize that demonizing pedophiles, as opposed to child predators, only creates an environment in which pedophiles don't feel safe communicating about it with anyone. We need pedophiles to feel comfortable speaking with mental health professionals and support groups instead of being made to feel like unacceptable freaks who need to hide from society. Instead of trying to give them psychological help, we effectively work to push them into psychological decline, which is only a good way to minimize impulse control.
In addition to limiting our ability to provide them with mental health treatment and social services, we also limit our ability to study them or to even count them, and we do it in the name of protecting children. That's backward af. We need to know who they are BEFORE they harm children if we'd like to prevent it. And in order for that to happen, we need them to feel safe talking about it. That won't happen until a whole lot of people realize that the current stigma is counterproductive. There's also nothing virtuous about shitting on innocent people for the extreme misfortune of existing as a pedophile, which it surely must be. Society's perspective on pedophiles is largely a bigoted one
Edited by Apples in Mono (06/27/20 12:17 AM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: Pedophila [Re: WASTE]
#26786093 - 06/27/20 12:26 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, children are legally not considered to be of an age of consent for sex, for tobacco, fo alcohol, for owning firearms or driving and all for very sound developmental reasons. Children are sexual beings and they will unabashedly touch themselves and masturbate. But for an adult to cultivate (groom) children for the performance of sexual acts for the adult's perverse pleasure is illegal because it is immoral. It is immoral because it is not compassionate and it causes psychological damage. To sexualize the personality before other important affective, cognitive, and moral stages are adequately developed, all kinds of aberrations of personality can develop.
I had a girlfriend who was so promiscuous I had to break it off with her. She talked about Freudian things like polymorphous perversity, "a psychoanalytic concept proposing the ability to gain sexual gratification outside socially normative sexual behaviors. Sigmund Freud used this term to describe the sexual disposition from infancy to about age five."(Wiki) But as it turned out she was repeatedly molested prior to the age of five by an older sister. The pleasurable sensations were mingled with a deep sense of shame which is a common reaction to those who have been sexually abused and one I see frequently in my clinical practice. The 'shamed child' is created and there are different ways of dealing with the shame, often unhealthy ways.
In her case she became the precocious child who acted seductively and played 'show me your's and I'll show you mine.' Hitch hiking as an adolescent she was raped at knifepoint but rather than the event creating caution in the future, she would go out seeking a repetition of the violence to herself. A repetiton compulsion "is a psychological phenomenon in which a person repeats an event or its circumstances over and over again. This includes reenacting the event or putting oneself in situations where the event is likely to happen again." (Wiki) Guys on my dorm floor told me they'd seen her late at night walking along the highway in nightgown. She would try to recapitulate the trauma, ostensibly to gain control but eventually becoming a street-walker, a call girl, and a. MC gang mama who took gang rapes by Hell's Angels and violence to herself from heroin injection and racking up STDs. Her's is a fairly common story for many whose early childhood experiences are similar. She remains a sex worker today in her 60s running an escort service.
My only judgement is that I fell for her hard but she was too damaged to ever bond with someone in any committed love relationship. She was also Borderline Personality Disordered which has its origins according to Margaret Mahler's developmental theory of Separation-Individuation in parents being emotionally and/or physically absent during very early stages of development. Whether she chooses her lifestyle or is operating under compulsion, both options are rather enslaved to disturbed psychological dynamics harkening back to premature sexualization and her parents' absence and failure to protect her.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Society's perspective on pedophiles is largely a bigoted one
big·ot | ˈbiɡət | noun a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions
This is one of those exceedingly rare instances where the definition of bigot is actually justified when compared to the "opinions" of the perversity of a NAMBLA member for example. The sexual desires of a pedophile when acted upon are beyond any doubt destructive to individual children and to the adults they become. Since psychotherapy is ineffective, partly because there is an Antisocial element to the pedophile who does not experience conscience, remorse, or empathy towards a young developing child, more physical treatments are in order to protect society from their damage. This includes so-called 'chemical castration' with Depo-Provera. I personally do not encourage physical violence towards these people but I am not a parent.
In Miami there was until last year an enormous population of sex offenders living under our Julia-Tuttle Causeway. It was a creepy underworld of banished sex offenders because nobody wants a child-molester living near their kids and for really good reason - nobody wants their child sexually molested. Pedophiles have unnatural tendencies that cause very real damage and they have become beings who are completely identified with their unnatural urges. Their "opinions" on sex with children do NOT have to be heard and certainly not agreed to. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article237545129.html http://ange-bleu.com/en/the-pariahs-of-miami-beach
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Apples in Mono
Not a puppet


Registered: 09/21/17
Posts: 3,240
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My usage was more along the lines of:
big·ot | \ biɡət a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
But I'm not particularly interested in the semantics of the term.
I thought I made it plenty clear in my post that I think we should do the best we can to minimize the sexual abuse of children.
Nambla obviously does not represent pedophiles in general.
I'm not sure what it means to call pedophilia "unnatural', or what the significance is either way. I think it very much looks to be a part of the nature of some human beings. But I think what is relevant is that it isn't a choice. And the statement that they "have become beings who are completely identified with their unnatural urges" is an unfounded one. Many pedophiles- perhaps most- have the same opinions on sex with children as the rest of us- that it's abusive, deeply harmful, and entirely unacceptable. Once again, most adults who sexually abuse children aren't pedophiles. And we have no reason to believe that most pedophiles will sexually abuse children.
I guess I'm not really sure how else to respond, other than referring back to everything in my previous post. I hate to say it, but with all due respect, i think yours is the sort of counterproductive position I mentioned.
I don't want pedophiles hiding and dissociating. I want them to open up and speak to mental health professionals and to have healthy relationships. And I don't think there's anything immoral about existing as a pedophile
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