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OfflineDakushdoctor97
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Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way)
    #26771116 - 06/22/20 03:49 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Hi. I'm going to test growing mushrooms but without sterilization. Nature uses beneficial bacteria to keep plants, mushroomsand the ground clean.

Does anyone have any knowledge on the species of bacteria.
1: what species of bacteria are harmful (create mould,parasites,etc)

2: what species are helpful. (Eat the mould, clean the substrate, etc.

I know there is bacteria such a lactobacillus that is uses to clean animal bedding, break up waste, etc. There is bacteria you can buy and you spray it around your house to clean surfaces, matresses, sofas, etc.

This is the same bacteria that nature uses to keep mushrooms clean in the wild and its very effective people use it in blocked drains, odours, mold, etc.

If anyone knows any species and there purpose. Either bad or good please let me know. I believe these natural microbes are more sterile than other methods they litterly eat and clean up all the bad stuff we don't want people have been using them for thousands of years.


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Offlinelefty24
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: Dakushdoctor97]
    #26773541 - 06/22/20 05:16 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

That dog won't hunt buddy.


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OfflineVP123
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: Dakushdoctor97]
    #26773564 - 06/22/20 05:36 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

The devil is in the details. The following is a link to an article that estimates 30 million different species of bacteria in 30 grams of rich forest top soil

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3160642/

Which species or combinations would work for your purpose is anybody's guess. Sterilization methods seem far less complex.


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OfflineCagedApe
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: VP123]
    #26773582 - 06/22/20 05:46 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah Im a noob and even I would say.... Sterilization is the key unless you like growing just mold.


Edited by CagedApe (06/22/20 05:47 AM)


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OfflineFractal420
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: VP123]
    #26773588 - 06/22/20 05:53 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Seems like a cool idea, but I don’t see how you’d get clean spawn, I mean I guess you’re trying to have it cohabitate with “probiotics” as an alternative. I personally do not think this will work BUT it’s an interesting experiment

Someone came up with dog food agar after all

PS I think instead of steam sterilization you should just PC grains, well that’s the method I prefer. BRF may be better against contams perhaps just due to the short time it takes to colonize a 1/2pt


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Prying open MY third eye



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OfflineDakushdoctor97
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: Fractal420]
    #26773604 - 06/22/20 06:02 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I know whatvyous are saying its hard work but if someone gets it done all you will have to do is add the beneficial bacteria to the spawn and that will clean it. If i know exactly what species do what il know what probiotics to buy


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OfflineDakushdoctor97
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: VP123]
    #26773615 - 06/22/20 06:09 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks mate. You gave me an idea Im gona try use soil, stick, plant matter from a forest floor to grow the mycelium hopefully the beneficial bacteria thats already there will help with what Im talking about even if its only for a while at least we can keep feeding the bacteria sugar to keep clean the spawn.


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Offlinedashiling
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: Dakushdoctor97]
    #26773619 - 06/22/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

everything competes for resources. Mushrooms are no exception. consider having an aggressive strain to start.


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OfflineMrBovineJoni
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: dashiling]
    #26773669 - 06/22/20 07:06 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Wow dude, from your questions it seems that you should read up about the very basic understanding of microbiology and mycology and how these things work together in controlled (e.g. indoors) and outdoor environments.

Don't waste your time - at your current apparent skill and understanding level you will never ever succeed with this approach - go ahead but you will just waste your time and resources; only to learn what everyone could have told you already.

While in theory it could be possible to create small ecosystem with balanced bacterial and other microorganism mixture that helps with mushroom growth, you would need a state of the art research lab, scientists and equipment worth millions to do that. It seems that you have completely misunderstood the purpose of sterilisation in the context of mycology - during colonisation phase we must give mycelium (or a handful of spores to start with) competitive advantage against the billions (literally billions) of other competing organisms.

Do you know why it succeeds in nature? Because there are insanely large amounts of spores produced and all kinds of myceliums grow everywhere even if it never fruits. Your approach might yield you a few mushrooms if you scatter a 100g (1kg or any other similarly insane amount)of spores around a forest or a cow field because some of them will succeed in fruiting but that is random and unreliable.

You know what is easier and does not require multi-million laboratory; and potentially impossible task of balancing this ecosystem?

Sterilisation - we wipe the slate clean and allow myc to get the head start until it can fight on its own (and still is very prone to some contaminants / parasitic organisms even when at full strength).


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OfflineSoccrates
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: MrBovineJoni]
    #26773759 - 06/22/20 08:22 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

The easy solution to all of these issues is to have myc that can eat the LABs. Can it? throw a petri dish into some bokashi. See if its something they'll eat. The lactobacillus will dominate the culture in anaerobic environment, so you could just throw your stuff in jars and seal them up to ferment until you're ready for them.
Then inoculate with mycelium, and give it air exchange.


It probably won't work, though. It definitely won't be better than just sterilizing


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OfflinePhrontist
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: Soccrates] * 1
    #26773871 - 06/22/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

First off, if this is something you’re passionate about for whatever reason, don’t let anyone (including me) discourage you. Keep in mind that you’re posting in a public forum though, so you’re inviting all opinions and they won’t all be supportive. Don’t take it personally, no one has an issue with you personally, they’re just giving honest opinions.

Now, having said all of that... I’m trying to understand what this could lead to that would be beneficial to mush cult. We’re talking about progress in ease of use or yields, preferably both.

Forget the logistics for a moment and let’s start at the end, the one where you’re successful. You now understand which “helpful” organisms deal with which “harmful” organisms. In order to apply your knowledge, one must know what organisms are present in their growing habitat, which is subject to change with literally every passing current of FAE. So even IF you figure everything out AND all the logistics are manageable, implementation would require frequent testing of the habitat and adjustments to “helpful” organism levels as needed.

Does that sound like a better situation than sterilizing once and you’re done? I would hypothesize that even if your project is a success, it’s a failure because implementation is less efficient than currently existing, effective tek.

The other area to look for progress is yields; some might consider the extra effort in implementation to be worth it, if the yields are significantly improved. Again, let’s start at the end where you’re successful. You’ve managed to create an environment nearly indistinguishable from what nature provides in the wild. Except we already know that indoor, controlled grows produce vastly higher yields than nature. So again, even if your project is successful, it’s a giant leap backwards for cultivation purposes.

And I’ll reiterate, this ignores all of the logistics. The, for all intents and purposes, infinite possible combinations of microorganisms in an environment. The years of study required to master a basic knowledge of them, let alone a complete and total one.

If you’re looking for something to spend your lifetime working on and pass any progress you make to the next generation, I think you’ve found it. But if you’re looking for something to treat your growing medium and make it suitable to produce mushrooms, it’s pressurized steam.


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OfflineFractal420
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: Phrontist]
    #26775882 - 06/23/20 04:54 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I will say, just in case this works out somehow, you’d be game changing mycology. If you wanna do an experiment do it, whether or not it fits with the shroomery blueprints. This is a type of info site where you are meant to get a routine down if you’re just trying to grow, but if you’re willing to use resources and take a chance, and perhaps find something new for the whole community, all the power to ya.

If you sincerely think it can work give it a try, just don’t waste Too much time/effort/resources If it fails

The first thing that comes to mind for me, what is on a cats tongue that is supposed to sterilize things (maybe you can have cats lick your substrate :wink: )

I did actually think about it for a few minutes, or other possible ways (I know nothing about bacteria type, just that if I see any in a jar it’s a facepalm)


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye



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OfflineMrBovineJoni
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: Fractal420]
    #26775898 - 06/23/20 05:10 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fractal420 said:
I will say, just in case this works out somehow, you’d be game changing mycology. If you wanna do an experiment do it, whether or not it fits with the shroomery blueprints. This is a type of info site where you are meant to get a routine down if you’re just trying to grow, but if you’re willing to use resources and take a chance, and perhaps find something new for the whole community, all the power to ya.

If you sincerely think it can work give it a try, just don’t waste Too much time/effort/resources If it fails




My major gripe with OP's query is not that it is bad to experiment - that is something everyone should encourage, but that he seems to lack the understanding of some basic principles crucial for mycology/microbiology while he wants to try something potentially groundbreaking(which almost everyone with more experience knows won't work).
I think it is helpful to be brutally honest in the beginning and it is essential in this hobby to be able to accept failures and criticism in order to succeed. 

Quote:

Dakushdoctor97 said:
I believe these natural microbes are more sterile than other methods they litterly eat and clean up all the bad stuff we don't want people have been using them for thousands of years.



Sorry, but misguided/misinterpreted/wrong "beliefs" are not going to make it work. If that is the initial step, this idea is doomed before it even has started.


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Invisiblegrownright
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: MrBovineJoni]
    #26775972 - 06/23/20 06:22 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

You don't reinvent the wheel, you'll only complicate things

Occam's razor: entities should not be multiplied without necessity.


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InvisibleLotKid
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: grownright]
    #26775987 - 06/23/20 06:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Some species like King Strophoria actually require beneficial microbes (in the casing layer) in order to fruit.

But the only benefcial microbe I'm aware of, for any type of spwan production is... mycelium.

I appreciate your thought process, OP, but IMHO.... get a sterilizer. Save yourself some money and headache.


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Invisiblepanne cyanne
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Re: Healthy bacteria instead of sterilization (Natures way) [Re: LotKid]
    #26776082 - 06/23/20 08:00 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

a child could figure this out.
assuming they started at an ivy league school before 6 years old and had an accelerated masters degree in bio sciences by age 9.

no way i could do it.
i didnt start college till i was 16.


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