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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
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Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,730
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: Tweeq]
    #26773728 - 06/22/20 08:06 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Had a friend who thought he had died and that he was being  tested, like the old final judgement myths from the Egyptians & Christians.  He thought I was St. Peter guarding the gates and would determine if he goes to heaven or descends to hell.  He was having a psychotic experience - and could have gone and done anything and not realized the consequences as real. I could have told him to kill his father to prove his loyalty and I guarantee he would have done it. It was that bad.  I was tripping too so I had to handle the situation with the utmost care - luckily my friend loosing his mind completely sobered me up for the most part.

Thank goodness I brought 2 emergency lorazepam pills in case some one had a seizure, they worked for this type of situation too. He only took them after much hesitancy due to believing it was part of the test and after many loops in the same thought pattern - Stuck In a death/hell loop, what could be worse?  Later He’s recognized he shouldn't he doing psychedelics after having done psychedelics one more time after that that event.  Something about being predisposed to something because of his family history.  He’s alright today &  well respected chemist working for the big bois.


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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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OfflineSocrateshroom
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #26773811 - 06/22/20 08:48 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Glad your friend realized it before he did something regrettable. Psychedelics aren’t for everyone, but that isn’t inherent to them. All substances can cause certain individuals issues. For example coffee and alcohol (separately obviously) aren’t for me. Alcohol brings out the absolute worst in me and thus I abstain. And even though I have an on/off relationship with coffee, I maintain the “off” part most of the time because it just makes me jittery.

Plus, for those who are predisposed to psychosis and the like, extreme experiences, even while sober, can trigger episodes. So I would maintain that it isn’t mushrooms that cause these issues but the fact that they can cause extreme experiences which trigger such episodes. I’ve seen people get psychotic on alcohol because they drank too much and the intensity of the experience triggered an event.


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Registered: 10/10/16
Posts: 994
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: Socrateshroom]
    #26773919 - 06/22/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yeaaaaah, the spores have nothing to do with this. Thats just tripping for you, everytime is different. Esp. if you only provide the substance and dont lead the ceremony, you cant really control what intentions people go into the experience with, and what people they are. It can be a self-protecting mechanism if your customers are all in a "hippie" circle, and can educate and integrate with each other, but very often with selling the temptation is there to expand to other circles, beginners, and then it is your responsibility as provider to educate them as well as possible and when you see that they arent listening and are approaching it with the wrong mindset also be able to say no. But still, you cant do much from afar like that.
Just my 2 cents.


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"to affirm life is to also affirm death"
-Albert hofmann


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OfflineLosTresOjos
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Registered: 09/18/18
Posts: 1,347
Loc: Hurling Through Space
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: polaritymind]
    #26774082 - 06/22/20 11:30 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

No one has any responsibility to anyone else. When you buy a car does anybody remind the buyer of the potential death or injury? No they remind you of how safe it is.

The seller leading a ceremony? Fuck that.


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OfflineEvolvingVRNode

Registered: 12/06/17
Posts: 40
Last seen: 3 months, 18 days
Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: LosTresOjos]
    #26774184 - 06/22/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

A seller leading a ceremony is a nice idea, but it's not gonna happen like that, especially if it's not friends they're selling to. Sellers should always give a serious warning/heads up, make sure they know what they're getting into and give solid advice on dose, they just can't babysit their buyers it's not realistic, someone big enough to be buying this stuff should be responsible enough to know the possibilities and be prepared, it's kinda on them. imo


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OfflineEvolvingVRNode

Registered: 12/06/17
Posts: 40
Last seen: 3 months, 18 days
Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: jarjarbic]
    #26774207 - 06/22/20 12:26 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

jarjarbic said:
the mushrooms tell you if your spouse cheated on you

so maybe he learned the truth?




So he borderline sexually assaulted her cos maybe the mushrooms told him his spouse cheated? Pretty sure getting suspicious about the person you're tripping with is more along the lines of schizophrenia, and voices implying the person is somewhat harming you. It's happened to people, it's documented. Can't prove or deny what mushrooms tell you but this is pretty much bullshit pal, but i suppose you're a shit poster :lol: ha, you got me


Edited by EvolvingVRNode (06/22/20 12:30 PM)


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OfflineTweeq
Tweeq of Nature
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Registered: 06/07/18
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: EvolvingVRNode]
    #26774509 - 06/22/20 03:11 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, imo the seller should keep as much distance between him/herself and any end users as possible. I mean, in general of course. The seller may have friends they like to trip together with :smile:

But we know not everybody was made to handle psychedelics well so better to take precautions than be the scapegoat for ppl's bad trips and anxious experiences.


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: nooneman]
    #26775098 - 06/22/20 06:42 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Violence is a rare but well known potential side effect. It probably happens to less than 1% of the population, but it does happen occasionally. There needs to be more research to find out what causes it, because the vast majority of people can trip hundreds of times and never ever become violent, but others who are in that rare minority can become extremely violent even their first time.

There have been instances of people displaying both purposeless and purposeful violence towards themselves and others. Some people smash everything nearby with no clear reasoning or goal, others physically harm themselves including cutting themselves, and some rare people attack others, including occasionally with weapons. Some rare few have even killed under the influence.

That's all very rare, but it's a known risk. That's why it's always good to start new people out low and to watch their reaction like a hawk. It's almost certainly genetic IMO.




Kind of like violence and booze. Although I would think shrooms statistically would cause less violence. Some people just have violent tendencies and others are intentionally so, which does not seem like the case here.


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Offlinejarjarbic
Stranger
Registered: 05/19/20
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: EvolvingVRNode]
    #26775226 - 06/22/20 07:26 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

EvolvingVRNode said:
Quote:

jarjarbic said:
the mushrooms tell you if your spouse cheated on you

so maybe he learned the truth?




So he borderline sexually assaulted her cos maybe the mushrooms told him his spouse cheated?




what I mean is you learn to read people and you can see right through them in that state of consciousness.

So if they did cheat on you then you pick up on it right away. Because you are in the state of knowing, nothing is an assumption.


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OfflinepsilocybinjunkieM
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: pootis] * 1
    #26775292 - 06/22/20 07:58 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

pootis said:
So person A that my friend's dog had provided some mushrooms (cubes) to apparently freaked out in a violent way and attacked person B and as a result person A was arrested. Person B called me today to ask what had been provided.




So you sold shrooms to someone and they had a bad reaction and attacked someone else and now you're going to destroy your crop just in case they snitch you out. :cookiemonster:


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OfflineLosTresOjos
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: jarjarbic]
    #26775299 - 06/22/20 08:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Hmm that sort of thinking can lead down serious delusions.


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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: InnerWisdom] * 2
    #26776669 - 06/23/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
Violence is a rare but well known potential side effect. It probably happens to less than 1% of the population, but it does happen occasionally. There needs to be more research to find out what causes it, because the vast majority of people can trip hundreds of times and never ever become violent, but others who are in that rare minority can become extremely violent even their first time.

There have been instances of people displaying both purposeless and purposeful violence towards themselves and others. Some people smash everything nearby with no clear reasoning or goal, others physically harm themselves including cutting themselves, and some rare people attack others, including occasionally with weapons. Some rare few have even killed under the influence.

That's all very rare, but it's a known risk. That's why it's always good to start new people out low and to watch their reaction like a hawk. It's almost certainly genetic IMO.




Kind of like violence and booze. Although I would think shrooms statistically would cause less violence. Some people just have violent tendencies and others are intentionally so, which does not seem like the case here.





IMOE although outwardly it may seem as if the person is someone with violent tendencies, a psychotic usually attacks others, not out of innate malevolence but because he believes he is in mortal danger.

Saying that though, I remember hiding in a cupboard and attacking people, as after all, my murderer knew where I was hiding!

In Darwinian terms believing one's spouse to be cheating has produced homicidal reactions even in males who were not tripping or psychotic. A consequence of antiquated or outdated survival algorithms causing the exact opposite result (survival) for which they were originally designed when we were living in the wild.

If tripping it could easily start with a person believing he can read his wife's mind, produce an increasingly paranoid situation that then escalates into full-blown delusions and ensuing mayhem.

Those kinds of paranoid persecutory fears (my wife is cheating on me) are the kind of weaknesses and humiliations the demons love to hone in on, and gain control over their victims, so such issues should really be addressed before deciding to use psychedelics, as they can truly be dangerous.

Anything from terminal illness (your own or a relatives) sexual failures, a cheating spouse, or closet homosexuality could theoretically when tripping lead to psychosis if the user is unable to accept, and deal with these issues when they manifest. I would guess therefore that young people are more likely to be at risk...

Different people will react to such things differently, but these issues all tend to share one commonality in that they are, at the time perceived -rightly or wrongly- as a Darwinian threat to the humans very survival. It isn't so much a predisposition for psychosis, but an inability to prevent it, by just letting go of the ego/identity/reputation. Once one begins to seriously refuse where a trip is trying to take him, or what it is showing him about himself, the immense build up of pressure can rapidly lead to hallucinations of a persecutory nature and from there, delusions and full-blown insanity.

I think people need to be careful about their mental state going in, and never assume it won't happen to you, or the person you are giving psychedelics to, as even a person without any of the issues listed above may still get into serious trouble if he uses stupid doses and becomes delusional.

Once a person becomes certain he is about to die for example, almost anything can happen, for the same reasons as above...

I had an experience once on HBWR in which I took so fucking many that it wasn't so much I was insane in a paranoid/persecutory sense, but that for a while I almost completely dissociated, and wasn't aware what was happening, coming to eventually thrashing around and entangled in a mosquito net! Looking back that was probably my final wake up call, might have got myself into serious trouble, and it irks me looking back that I could have been so utterly irresponsible...

Psychedelics seriously do have the potential to be a whole other kind of dangerous compared to say alcohol if they are abused, not respected, or taken when a person is not in the right frame of mind.
I do agree some are more predisposed to psychosis than others (some should probably never use them) but on the other hand this predisposition isn’t always necessarily innately physiological or psychological, but sometimes just circumstantial.

It’s easier for us to dismiss these occurrences as being the result of mental instability or a predisposition than to entertain the idea that it might happen to us, in much the same way people assume that the killer on the news must have been an evil psychopath, as opposed to someone like the person sitting across from them at the breakfast table!


--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown



Edited by wolf8312 (06/23/20 05:44 PM)


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OfflineMugnath
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: wolf8312]
    #26776795 - 06/23/20 01:28 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Back in High school I went to a house party. I met two guys and girl there who had done mushrooms together (I never had tried them up to this point or really knew much about them). One guy was cousins with the girl. The other guy was screwing around at some point in the night and had hit the girl with a flashlight. She was pissed obviously, and kept egging on her cousin over the next hour to kick the first guys ass.

The teen who had hit her with the flashlight was out doing something by his car in the street, a friend and I were standing in the driveway smoking cigarettes and chatting. The cousin comes walking by us out of the garage. By the time we knew what was happening, it was too late.

The cousin had found a baseball bat and proceeded to beat on this poor kids head, following the teenager down the street smacking him repeatedly with this bat until a few of us ran out and got between them. He took off running and was eventually grabbed by the police. He wasn't a violent person, and you would never have thought it possible. Mushrooms can enhance more than just positive emotions.


Edited by Mugnath (06/23/20 01:45 PM)


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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: Mugnath] * 1
    #26776847 - 06/23/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mugnath said:
Back in High school I went to a house party. I met two guys and girl there who had done mushrooms together (I never had tried them up to this point or really knew much about them). One guy was cousins with the girl. The other guy was screwing around at some point in the night and had hit the girl with a flashlight. She was pissed obviously, and kept egging on her cousin over the next hour to kick the first guys ass.

The teen who had hit her with the flashlight was out doing something by his car in the street, a friend and I were standing in the driveway smoking cigarettes and chatting. The cousin comes walking by us out of the garage. By the time we knew what was happening, it was too late.

The cousin had found a baseball bat and proceeded to beat on this poor kids head, following the teenager down the street smacking repeatedly him with this bat until a few of us ran out and got between them. He took off running and was eventually grabbed by the police. He wasn't a violent person, and you would never have thought it possible. Mushrooms can enhance more than just positive emotions.




Sounds like another ego fueled Darwinian spaz out to be honest!


--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown



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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: pootis]
    #26777089 - 06/23/20 03:35 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

The mushrooms were a catalyst for an underlying mental condition(s) present in that persons psyche. Not the cause.


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: wolf8312]
    #26777092 - 06/23/20 03:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

wolf8312 said:
Quote:

Mugnath said:
Back in High school I went to a house party. I met two guys and girl there who had done mushrooms together (I never had tried them up to this point or really knew much about them). One guy was cousins with the girl. The other guy was screwing around at some point in the night and had hit the girl with a flashlight. She was pissed obviously, and kept egging on her cousin over the next hour to kick the first guys ass.

The teen who had hit her with the flashlight was out doing something by his car in the street, a friend and I were standing in the driveway smoking cigarettes and chatting. The cousin comes walking by us out of the garage. By the time we knew what was happening, it was too late.

The cousin had found a baseball bat and proceeded to beat on this poor kids head, following the teenager down the street smacking repeatedly him with this bat until a few of us ran out and got between them. He took off running and was eventually grabbed by the police. He wasn't a violent person, and you would never have thought it possible. Mushrooms can enhance more than just positive emotions.




Sounds like another ego fueled Darwinian spaz out to be honest!




WEll if the girlfriend kept telling him, in his diluded state he probably thought he was doing something romantic and chivalrous and that he had to do it for her, man. This over-romanticised thinking, the attachment of too much meaning to certain concepts and desires (like in this case and often in such storys revenge) is certainly due to psychedelics. I recently read this very interesting paper on http://www.psychedelic-library.org/ called "Psychedelic elefant" (http://www.psychedelic-library.org/Psychedelic_Elephant.pdf and in it the author states that the main effect of psychedelics is that it increases the salience, which is similar to meaningfulness, from only some things, to everything observed and generally increases the sense.


--------------------
"to affirm life is to also affirm death"
-Albert hofmann


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Offlinejarjarbic
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: Mugnath]
    #26777180 - 06/23/20 04:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mugnath said:

The cousin had found a baseball bat and proceeded to beat on this poor kids head, .




did he die?


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OfflineMugnath
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: jarjarbic]
    #26777272 - 06/23/20 04:39 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

They air lifted him out of the field right behind the Catholic church across the street and he survived with some permanent brain damage (as far as I know, I didn't keep in contact with these folk).

The girl was cousins with the guy who beat the other guy with a bat, and she was quite lesbian (short hair, mens clothes, etc.)


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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: Mugnath]
    #26778245 - 06/24/20 12:57 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mugnath said:
They air lifted him out of the field right behind the Catholic church across the street and he survived with some permanent brain damage (as far as I know, I didn't keep in contact with these folk).

The girl was cousins with the guy who beat the other guy with a bat, and she was quite lesbian (short hair, mens clothes, etc.)




Out of interest what do you personally believe caused him to get violent?


--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown



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InvisibleGrey Fox

Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 2,653
Re: Bad trip that ended in violence - looking for answers [Re: wolf8312]
    #26778608 - 06/24/20 07:27 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Violent people do violent things.  Some people have done violent things before, and dont talk about it.  And I dont mean self-defense.  So you never really know.  Hard to blame the mushrooms for that.


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IT WAS ALL A DREAM


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