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Bagels
Huntress


Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 1,029
Loc: NZ
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Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ 2
#26760967 - 06/20/20 11:21 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I found these mushrooms growing in a paddock in a gully. Sometimes there are sheep there and sometimes cows but none were there that day It was a cold day and it had been raining and the mushrooms were wet and growing from rain sodden soil. In real they appeared much darker. Once picked the caps started to lighten but I had run out daylight to take good photos.
Stem (approx.): Length 5 cm. Diameter 2 mm - 3 mm. Hollow.
Cap (approx): Diameter 2 cm -3 cm.
Spore print color: Black.
 #1 #2 #1 and #2 same print. #3 #4 #3 and #4 same print.
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xthrx
Stranger


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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
#26761913 - 06/21/20 12:21 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Cinc or olivaceus I reckon.
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Bagels
Huntress


Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 1,029
Loc: NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: xthrx] 1
#26762047 - 06/21/20 01:34 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks xthrx. I saw your post of P. cintulus the other day after I found those. A very nice addition to the NZ season thread
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Bagels
Huntress


Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 1,029
Loc: NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
#26775652 - 06/22/20 11:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Any further input would be appreciated.
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OOISI
Suburbanaut


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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
#26775664 - 06/22/20 11:57 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Awesome find Bagels 
Black print does suggest Cinc's
-------------------- Subaeruginosa Guide Bless the Lord, O my soul O my soul Worship His holy name.
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Bagels
Huntress


Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 1,029
Loc: NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: OOISI]
#26775871 - 06/23/20 04:40 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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cheers OOISI
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RogerTheRetard
Overlord

Registered: 07/28/17
Posts: 2,545
Loc: Auckland, NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
#26788169 - 06/27/20 07:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
xthrx said: Cinc or olivaceus I reckon.
Does Panaelous olivaceus occur in New Zealand?
I was under the impression that Panaeolus cinctulus was the only NZ pan...
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 angulospora subaeruginosa subsecotioides tasmaniana    
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xthrx
Stranger


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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: RogerTheRetard]
#26788272 - 06/27/20 09:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah bro, they definitely do.
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RogerTheRetard
Overlord

Registered: 07/28/17
Posts: 2,545
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: xthrx]
#26788671 - 06/28/20 01:38 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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That's good to know.
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 angulospora subaeruginosa subsecotioides tasmaniana    
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Bagels
Huntress


Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 1,029
Loc: NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: RogerTheRetard]
#26789800 - 06/28/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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There is just the one NZ P. olivaceus observation on the inaturalist website.
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RogerTheRetard
Overlord

Registered: 07/28/17
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
#26790732 - 06/28/20 07:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ok cool.
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 angulospora subaeruginosa subsecotioides tasmaniana    
Edited by RogerTheRetard (01/14/21 04:28 PM)
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Bagels
Huntress


Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 1,029
Loc: NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: RogerTheRetard]
#26791119 - 06/28/20 11:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks for the list Roger. Good work
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RogerTheRetard
Overlord

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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
#26791185 - 06/29/20 01:08 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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.
Edited by RogerTheRetard (01/14/21 04:28 PM)
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Moria841



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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: RogerTheRetard]
#26791203 - 06/29/20 01:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't think it's p. cinctulus due to the white stipe, perhaps it is an undescribed panaeolus
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RogerTheRetard
Overlord

Registered: 07/28/17
Posts: 2,545
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Moria841]
#26791210 - 06/29/20 01:35 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moria841 said: I don't think it's p. cinctulus due to the white stipe, perhaps it is an undescribed panaeolus
Perhaps it's Panaeolus olivaceus...
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 angulospora subaeruginosa subsecotioides tasmaniana    
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Bagels
Huntress


Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 1,029
Loc: NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: RogerTheRetard]
#26791278 - 06/29/20 03:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks Moria841. Another pic from a slightly different angle. I just checked the temp for that day and it was 12°/10° Celsius.
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RogerTheRetard
Overlord

Registered: 07/28/17
Posts: 2,545
Loc: Auckland, NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
#26791348 - 06/29/20 04:33 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Cool picture, did you harvest those specimens? All 7 mushrooms appear to be mature.
The jet black spores will give you the go ahead since I hear the species does not bruise blue much.
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 angulospora subaeruginosa subsecotioides tasmaniana    
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Bagels
Huntress


Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 1,029
Loc: NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: RogerTheRetard]
#26791434 - 06/29/20 06:14 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerTheRetard said: Cool picture, did you harvest those specimens? All 7 mushrooms appear to be mature.
The jet black spores will give you the go ahead since I hear the species does not bruise blue much. 
I collected all of them but only the group of three mushrooms on the right were in good condition. The group of four mushrooms on the left were old and in poor condition (4th image) with the caps being eaten out by fungus gnat larvae.
I will have to go back and check the area.
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RogerTheRetard
Overlord

Registered: 07/28/17
Posts: 2,545
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
#26791444 - 06/29/20 06:23 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bagels said:
Quote:
RogerTheRetard said: Cool picture, did you harvest those specimens? All 7 mushrooms appear to be mature.
The jet black spores will give you the go ahead since I hear the species does not bruise blue much. 
I collected all of them but only the group of three mushrooms on the right were in good condition. The group of four mushrooms on the left were old and in poor condition (4th image) with the caps being eaten out by fungus gnat larvae.
I will have to go back and check the area.
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 angulospora subaeruginosa subsecotioides tasmaniana    
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Bagels
Huntress


Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 1,029
Loc: NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: RogerTheRetard]
#26791458 - 06/29/20 06:39 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerTheRetard said:
Quote:
Bagels said:
Quote:
RogerTheRetard said: Cool picture, did you harvest those specimens? All 7 mushrooms appear to be mature.
The jet black spores will give you the go ahead since I hear the species does not bruise blue much. 
I collected all of them but only the group of three mushrooms on the right were in good condition. The group of four mushrooms on the left were old and in poor condition (4th image) with the caps being eaten out by fungus gnat larvae.
I will have to go back and check the area.

I have spared you my best pic of the dead sheep but hmmm lol not pleasant
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Doc9151
Mycologist



Registered: 02/23/17
Posts: 13,753
Loc: Gulf Coast USA
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
#26791506 - 06/29/20 07:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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They are Panaeolus cinctulus or olivaceus, microscopy is needed to determine which one. However, if you see any purplish or brownish color tones in the spore print it is Panaeolus foenisecii.
--------------------
  Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593
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Psilosadhu



Registered: 12/19/19
Posts: 1,887
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Doc9151]
#26792273 - 06/29/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'd say olivaceus as well. Try them out and let us know how it goes! Olivaceus seems to be mostly inactive, but don't know about NZ.
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Bagels
Huntress


Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 1,029
Loc: NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Doc9151]
#26793984 - 06/30/20 08:10 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doc9151 said: They are Panaeolus cinctulus or olivaceus, microscopy is needed to determine which one. However, if you see any purplish or brownish color tones in the spore print it is Panaeolus foenisecii.
Thanks Doc9151 I appreciated your help. There's no doubt in my mind about the spore colour being anything other than black. Is examination of the spores by microscopy enough in this case? Do you photograph, measure them and compare them and then go bam that's it that's a Panaeolus (whichever species)?
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Doc9151
Mycologist



Registered: 02/23/17
Posts: 13,753
Loc: Gulf Coast USA
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
#26794009 - 06/30/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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there's more to it than that, you not only measure the spores, but determine if they have a germ pore. size and shape of said pore, spore wall thickness, ornamentation if any on the spore and that is just some of the things that you have to do and look for concerning spores. The same has to be done with cystidia, Basidia and a whole lot more. It takes a few hours minimum and sometimes it takes days or weeks to complete everything. Measuring everything in each view is time consuming and you do averages not just one or two but I do a minimum of 50 spores and each type of cystidia and Basidia other structures.
--------------------
  Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593
Edited by Doc9151 (06/30/20 08:32 AM)
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Bagels
Huntress


Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 1,029
Loc: NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Doc9151]
#26794052 - 06/30/20 09:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doc9151 said: there's more to it than that, you not only measure the spores, but determine if they have a germ pore. size and shape of said pore, spore wall thickness, ornamentation if any on the spore and that is just some of the things that you have to do and look for concerning spores. The same has to be done with cystidia, Basidia and a whole lot more. It takes a few hours minimum and sometimes it takes days or weeks to complete everything. Measuring everything in each view is time consuming and you do averages not just one or two but I do a minimum of 50 spores and each type of cystidia and Basidia other structures.
That's facinating. Did it take you long to learn the basics?
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Doc9151
Mycologist



Registered: 02/23/17
Posts: 13,753
Loc: Gulf Coast USA
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
#26794128 - 06/30/20 09:52 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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It's taken me a few years to learn what I'm looking for/at. Learning the terminology is still an on going process because words have been substituted and added over the past few hundred years and most of the original descriptions are of European species written in foreign languages so trying to find translations can be daunting and its those older descriptions that contain words that are not used today so trying to define them is another task.
What I have realized in the past few years since I have delved more into research is that things are not what they thought and change is constant. Professional mycologist are still figuring out relationships and the true secrets of fungi haven't begun to be unlocked because very few people are looking at the chemistry of the different fungi that we know of and we haven't even scratched the surface on the undescribed species, not unknown but undescribed. There are so many unknown species out there that the pharmaceutical value alone is invaluable.
--------------------
  Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593
Edited by Doc9151 (06/30/20 09:54 AM)
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RogerTheRetard
Overlord

Registered: 07/28/17
Posts: 2,545
Loc: Auckland, NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Doc9151]
#26794624 - 06/30/20 01:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I was wondering if Panaeolus cinctulus and Panaeolus olivaceus have any macroscopic differentials so one would be able to differentiate cinctulus and olivaceus with the naked eye.
Or would you need to look under the microscope to tell them apart?
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 angulospora subaeruginosa subsecotioides tasmaniana    
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Doc9151
Mycologist



Registered: 02/23/17
Posts: 13,753
Loc: Gulf Coast USA
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: RogerTheRetard]
#26794885 - 06/30/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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They are hard to differentiate even with microscopy and easily confused with macro characteristics alone.
--------------------
  Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593
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RogerTheRetard
Overlord

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Loc: Auckland, NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Doc9151]
#26794993 - 06/30/20 04:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Fuck ok. So they could even be synonyms.
Otherwise what are the microscopic differences between Pan. cinctululs and olivaceus??? Do they overlap.
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 angulospora subaeruginosa subsecotioides tasmaniana    
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Doc9151
Mycologist



Registered: 02/23/17
Posts: 13,753
Loc: Gulf Coast USA
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: RogerTheRetard]
#26795001 - 06/30/20 04:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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no not synonymous but similar, DNA separates them and they don't mate.
--------------------
  Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593
Edited by Doc9151 (06/30/20 04:52 PM)
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RogerTheRetard
Overlord

Registered: 07/28/17
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Loc: Auckland, NZ
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Doc9151]
#26795119 - 06/30/20 05:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ok cool bro good to know.
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 angulospora subaeruginosa subsecotioides tasmaniana    
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Psilosadhu



Registered: 12/19/19
Posts: 1,887
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: RogerTheRetard]
#26796526 - 07/01/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hmm... Olivaceus got rough spores..
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