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InvisibleTheDoobskerS
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Dirty Spore Prints * 2
    #26759980 - 06/20/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

So I just took my first spore print from some Nepal Chitwans I recently grew.

Shout out to Magash for the tek:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5666855#5666855

One modification was that I had no filter disks, so I made one with some paper towels. Definitely not as clean as the filters would have been, but this got me thinkin. (the paper towel was PC'd in place of where the jar lid usually goes, seemed to hold up okay and didn't get too moist)

So now I have a cap sitting inside of a PC'd jar on some foil, inside of my still air box with the arm holes tapes off. I'll let this sit for 24 hours and then remove the cap, from the jar, fold up the foil, and place into a new, freshly PC'd jar with a sealed lid.


My Question:
I've certainly read that spore prints are inheritenly unclean simply because they come from a cap which is far from sterile. Am I mistaken in thinking that this means there is no such thing as a spore syringe that isn't contaminated both with bacteria and other fungi?

If so, why even bother with spores ever? Is it ever actually necessary? Cloning to agar and cleaning up with subsequent transfers seems to be the better option both for long term storage and for planning an upcoming grow.

Side note: I'm aware that using spore syringes directly to a grow is inefficient because of contams as well as too much variance in genes.



Any insight is appreciated :smile::thumbup:


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Offlinelateforthafuture
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Re: Dirty Spore Prints [Re: TheDoobsker] * 1
    #26760031 - 06/20/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

You can get clean syringes. I'm assuming that those who are able to produce clean prints/syringes are fruiting in some sort of sterile environment, invitro maybe. Then harvesting, printing, and making the syringes under sterile conditions, but even then there's no guarantee that they will always be 100 percent contam free... things happen.

Spores are necessary for most people to start because live cultures are illegal in most places and spores aren't...so it's easier to get spores.

Also, people like to go back to spores to try and find new genetics, etc. Theoretically you could just work with live cultures for a very, very long time but it's always good to have spores if you need them or just want to find some new genetics.


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"Not what could have been, or what should have been, but what will be" -Self
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InvisibleTheDoobskerS
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Registered: 05/22/20
Posts: 799
Re: Dirty Spore Prints [Re: lateforthafuture]
    #26760083 - 06/20/20 03:06 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

lateforthafuture said:
You can get clean syringes. I'm assuming that those who are able to produce clean prints/syringes are fruiting in some sort of sterile environment, invitro maybe. Then harvesting, printing, and making the syringes under sterile conditions, but even then there's no guarantee that they will always be 100 percent contam free... things happen.

Spores are necessary for most people to start because live cultures are illegal in most places and spores aren't...so it's easier to get spores.




Aaah I see. Didn't consider the possibility of having a sterile grow. Thanks for the clarification!


Quote:

lateforthafuture said:
Also, people like to go back to spores to try and find new genetics, etc. Theoretically you could just work with live cultures for a very, very long time but it's always good to have spores if you need them or just want to find some new genetics.




I understand the wide variance in genes of a spore print and why it occurs, but hadn't heard of growers experimentally hunting out different genetics. Makes perfect sense. I assume a lot of varieties have come from this.
Can you or anyone expand on the etc.? Or just point me in the right direction for some good reading?


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OfflineManifoldPrime
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Re: Dirty Spore Prints [Re: TheDoobsker]
    #26760159 - 06/20/20 03:47 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Very cool that you're asking these kinds of questions!

Quote:

I've certainly read that spore prints are inheritenly unclean simply because they come from a cap which is far from sterile. Am I mistaken in thinking that this means there is no such thing as a spore syringe that isn't contaminated both with bacteria and other fungi?





There are degrees to this statement. In proper printing, a cap taken from a tub grown indoors in conditions that are more sanitary than normal, and put directly on sterile foil.
Foil apparently comes off the roll sterile, as it is still hot when put on the roll in the factory. according to the European Aluminium Foil Association:
Quote:

Hygiene
Once produced, aluminium foil is completely sterile due to the high temperature annealing process. It is safe for use in contact with foodstuffs and it does not harbour or promote the growth of bacteria.




Printing is perfomed without any draft or contact with your dirty ass hands, and if done correctly will be reasonably clean. The print itself will always have a few (but not zero) contaminants present. This print can be made into syringes, and each syringe takes a portion of the spores and therefore potential contaminants. With a syringe, we use very little fluid, usually no more than a millilitre per inoculation. so there's a fraction of a fraction of contaminants you're using, which lowers risk of contam enough for PF tek to be as successful as it is (there are other variables helping here as well, such as the structure of the cake that hinders bacteria spread).
However, most serious cultivators will use agar to filter out any contaminates before inoculating to spawn mediums.

Quote:

If so, why even bother with spores ever? Is it ever actually necessary?




Re-rolling genetics, long term storage of non-living genetics, multiplication of genetics, prevention of senescence (In a nutshell; the culture weakening from being transferred too many times).
You can keep hundreds of prints in a flipable file with plastic sleeves. you cant say the same of slants or living tissue cultures.

Quote:

Cloning to agar and cleaning up with subsequent transfers seems to be the better option both for long term storage and for planning an upcoming grow.



Cloning to agar is great! I suggest you do so when possible. however, clones can sometimes be *too* consistent, there are many cultivators that prefer the wildness of multispore innoculations. EXPERIMENT!

Quote:

I assume a lot of varieties have come from this.



A lot of varieties come from either freak mutations that were stablised by repeated attempts to isolate, but doing so via clone->spore->clone->spore is unreliable.
The more standard way of doing so is as such:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/mushroom-hybrid-technique.513376/
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11855000#11855000


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InvisibleTheDoobskerS
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Posts: 799
Re: Dirty Spore Prints [Re: ManifoldPrime]
    #26760202 - 06/20/20 04:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ManifoldPrime said:
Very cool that you're asking these kinds of questions!......





Awesome thanks for all the info! Definitely leads me in some good reading directions  :smile:


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: Dirty Spore Prints [Re: ManifoldPrime]
    #26760217 - 06/20/20 04:27 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

yes i read all this too and bookmarked the reading material... thanks!  very interesting!

OP - I am presently spawning to fruit some Nepal-Chitwans also!  I will post my progress in a couple days!


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Edited by AtmozFear (06/20/20 04:31 PM)


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Dirty Spore Prints [Re: TheDoobsker]
    #26760343 - 06/20/20 05:41 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Agar is used to clean up spore prints. Also spores grow directly on PF Tek even if semi-dirty. If you print as clean as possible, you can make some pretty clean prints. Its all in the prep and technique.

Im currently using deep-dish petri dishes to print my shroom caps. I love it, works great and I get clean prints afterwords :yesnod:


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InvisibleTheDoobskerS
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Re: Dirty Spore Prints [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26760672 - 06/20/20 09:02 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

AtmozFear said:
OP - I am presently spawning to fruit some Nepal-Chitwans also!  I will post my progress in a couple days!




Sweet, I'll be on the look-out!

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Im currently using deep-dish petri dishes to print my shroom caps. I love it, works great and I get clean prints afterwords :yesnod:




Sounds like a good idea. What do you then store the foil in after the cap prints inside the dish?


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OfflineManifoldPrime
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Registered: 03/16/17
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Re: Dirty Spore Prints [Re: TheDoobsker]
    #26762145 - 06/21/20 02:58 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Fold the foil over, little ziploc bags are a good storage option, as they also come pre-sterile.


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