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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: JizzMasterZero] * 2
    #26757005 - 06/19/20 10:41 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

were to get pulled over for whatever reason and I took a swing at the cop and ran off, I would EXPECT to get fucking shot, so I don’t do it. It




Cops aren’t supposed to kill guilty people either .


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: JizzMasterZero]
    #26757473 - 06/19/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

My counter argument:



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Edited by koods (06/19/20 01:30 PM)


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: JizzMasterZero] * 2
    #26759012 - 06/20/20 02:24 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

No. It's racist because the black people who don't do those things get killed by cops too. They get killed for having a cell phone in thier hand. They get killed for reaching toward their glove compartment after aked for license, registartion and proof of insurance. Those cops did not get charged because it was ruled that "they had a reasonable fear for their life".

The majority of the public backs the protesters. That's because they are less racist than the people who back the police.

I don't think most cops are bad. But until they stop covering for the ones who are, they deserve to get lumped together. Charging the officers who stood by and did nothing in these last two cases is a good first step in changing things.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #26759467 - 06/20/20 09:33 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
No. It's racist because the black people who don't do those things get killed by cops too. They get killed for having a cell phone in thier hand. They get killed for reaching toward their glove compartment after aked for license, registartion and proof of insurance. Those cops did not get charged because it was ruled that "they had a reasonable fear for their life".

The majority of the public backs the protesters. That's because they are less racist than the people who back the police.

I don't think most cops are bad. But until they stop covering for the ones who are, they deserve to get lumped together. Charging the officers who stood by and did nothing in these last two cases is a good first step in changing things.




I think the people that back the police are just more oblivious to the realities on the ground floor. They're immune to the unjust war on drugs, the over policing of communities and the corrupt criminal justice system. Does that lack of knowledge make them more racist?  No, it makes them ignorant of the world they live in.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman] * 4
    #26759529 - 06/20/20 10:09 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Most racism is founded in ignorance. Only a small portion of racism is actually hatred.


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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26759554 - 06/20/20 10:20 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

So how exactly do you know who is racist based on what they do, just look at what race they are?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence]
    #26759622 - 06/20/20 10:57 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

The race of a person is irrelevant...


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence]
    #26759625 - 06/20/20 10:58 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

lol, wut?  I don't see how that follows from the post you replied to, but I skipped the majority of this thread, so I'm probably just missing the context.


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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26759656 - 06/20/20 11:14 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

That was more for Brian I guess, (who seems to be pretty unaware of some stats that are relevant to his comment, by the way). Was just asking because racism is brought up very often when it comes to police, yet, I hardly ever see any actual evidence of racism. The only requirement for that accusation to stick is if the cop's a "white" guy. I just don't see how people can have such confidence that racism is so often the factor when there are way too many cops that are just shitty in general, as it is.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence] * 3
    #26759662 - 06/20/20 11:18 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

The numbers make it clear. Black people are more likely to be pulled over. Once pulled over, more likely to be searched. More likely to be shot.  More likely to be arrested. Once arrested,  more likely to be charged. More likely to get time. Will get more time on average.

Racism or statistical anomaly? To the rational observer, the choice is clear.


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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26759694 - 06/20/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

More likely to commit certain crimes and have priors too, perhaps? Also, one time I got pulled over by a cop who lied about me almost driving into his car as I pulled out of a gas station, because I was in a mostly black area late at night and he noticed my license plate, and told me that "white people usually only come around here this time of night when they're buying drugs." So it seems racial profiling isn't just a one way thing after all :shrug:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence] * 1
    #26759703 - 06/20/20 11:43 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

More likely to get caught for certain crimes, maybe.  Primarily based on more likely to be investigated and searched.

Of course racial profiling isn't a one-way thing.  As a teenager, I was pulled over and searched at least once a week.  Long-haired white dude in the ghetto...must be scoring drugs.

This comes down to two wildly different ways of looking at the world.  We know that blacks are convicted at a higher rate than whites of many kinds of crimes.  We know that blacks are, on the average, of a lower socioeconomic class.  These are bare facts.  How we view these facts depends on how we apply our racial views:

1.  We can say that these facts show that blacks are inherently prone to conduct that leads to these outcomes, or

2.  We can take the last 50 years of genetic science and apply it to realize that there is no biological reason that blacks should have different outcomes.  Given that reality, there must be systemic reasons that blacks have suffered these negative outcomes more frequently.  That is how we know there is systemic racism.  It isn't about blaming one person or group of persons.  It's about recognizing that the system, created and maintained by people of all races, is flawed in that a particular group of people are suffering inequities.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence]
    #26760323 - 06/20/20 05:29 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Eminence said:
That was more for Brian I guess, (who seems to be pretty unaware of some stats that are relevant to his comment, by the way). Was just asking because racism is brought up very often when it comes to police, yet, I hardly ever see any actual evidence of racism. The only requirement for that accusation to stick is if the cop's a "white" guy. I just don't see how people can have such confidence that racism is so often the factor when there are way too many cops that are just shitty in general, as it is.




Unaware of stats you think? You will have to do better than that. In 10 years of sociology concentrating on social stratification, I had little but exposure to these stats.

The question is why are you and I reaching opposite conclusions?

You said "racism is brought up very often when it comes to police, yet, I hardly ever see any actual evidence of racism." We just answered the question. We are all filtering information through our preconceived notions. You are not seeing what I and many others always saw, and what most people now see. There is no amount of information or arguments that is going to change that.


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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26760406 - 06/20/20 06:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

The stats showing that more white people are killed by police despite having a lower proportionate number of encounters. Please don't say "but there are more white people in the country." But what would you think if you watched a cop abusing someone of another race, then did it again to someone of his same race? How do you tell between racist cop and overall shitty untrained cop?

Also, I guarantee plenty of cops would be more confident in shooting a white man because police brutality against them just kinda escapes the news cycle, unlike with black people, where a cop can be fired for even doing what his training tells him to do. Reminds me of that video during the Floyd protests/riots of the black woman who was taunting the white cop in her car like she was about to drive over him, then got out and smacked him in the face a few times and he sat there just taking it because he was obviously nervous to have to arrest a black woman for hitting him :shrug: So his black cop partner was the one that came up behind her and knocked her out instead.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Enlil]
    #26760515 - 06/20/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
More likely to get caught for certain crimes, maybe.  Primarily based on more likely to be investigated and searched.

Of course racial profiling isn't a one-way thing.  As a teenager, I was pulled over and searched at least once a week.  Long-haired white dude in the ghetto...must be scoring drugs.

This comes down to two wildly different ways of looking at the world.  We know that blacks are convicted at a higher rate than whites of many kinds of crimes.  We know that blacks are, on the average, of a lower socioeconomic class.  These are bare facts.  How we view these facts depends on how we apply our racial views:

1.  We can say that these facts show that blacks are inherently prone to conduct that leads to these outcomes, or

2.  We can take the last 50 years of genetic science and apply it to realize that there is no biological reason that blacks should have different outcomes.  Given that reality, there must be systemic reasons that blacks have suffered these negative outcomes more frequently.  That is how we know there is systemic racism.  It isn't about blaming one person or group of persons.  It's about recognizing that the system, created and maintained by people of all races, is flawed in that a particular group of people are suffering inequities.





Even if you completely rule out biological factors, how can you rule out cultural factors and automatically conclude systemic racism is the main factor?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman]
    #26760584 - 06/20/20 08:19 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Culture is a part of the system. A culture isn't formed in a vacuum.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence]
    #26760608 - 06/20/20 08:33 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

You're hung up on the race of the cop. It doesn't matter what race the cop is. They all target black men more than white men.


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman]
    #26776115 - 06/23/20 08:25 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
it should be obvious that if you spend more time looking for crime you will find more crime.




"Slow down the testing, COVID numbers are too high!" -Donald Trump, 2020.


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MrBlueYoMind] * 1
    #26776327 - 06/23/20 09:57 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I had to call the police the other day, some kids have been steeling shit of peoples porches. I caught them twice, told them to fuck of with that shit, and that if they stopped we'd be cool. So I caught them again about an hour later. In the middle of creating the report the officer went on a rant about how black people in this country think they get a free pass. I hadn't told him what color the kids were... Suffice it so say, I was pretty fucking deflated over that.


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: christopera]
    #26776379 - 06/23/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah that sucks I don't have the answers to the problems I just refuse to overlook an opportunity to compare koods to trump.

People are all like "Stop treating innocent people like they're criminals!"  and the police response is all "You don't want us to arrest criminals?  Okay no more responding to calls"  tone deaf as fuck.

Yeah shits ugly.  What would you do if you were paid to arrest murderers, but every time a murder happens you go to solve it and the people that know what happened just spit on you and don't help you and then accuse you of not doing anything.  I'd imagine it's pretty frustrating. 

On the other hand, what would you do if people in your neighborhood were getting murdered at the same time lawmakers made it illegal for you to have a gun to protect yourself, and the murderers kill people who help the police solve the murders?  Doubt you would co-operate either, especially if police don't prevent a murder and only attempted to solve it after the fact.  Not to mention the police that are on drug dealer payrolls, cause that is a real thing as well.


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