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OfflineHamHead
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: morrowasted]
    #26897686 - 08/24/20 06:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

HamHead said:
Quote:

mndfreeze said:
So do seatbelts and heart transplants but god damn you are stuck on selling this drug.




That's great! Why do you think US isn't widely using HCQ then?

I mean, there's no patent because it's over 50 years old and widely available, so why not, if other countries are showing success?

Honestly?



We are not using it to treat covid bc it didnt work very well if at all and killed some people, and we are not using it for prophylaxis for the reasons i have already explained.

We have better drugs. You are being pointlessly stubborn.

Nobody is gonna be laughing at you if you just say "you know what guys I think I might have been wrong about this". In fact, people would respect you a lot more.




While medical professionals world wide are showing high success rates.

I'll remain stubborn as more evidence continues to mount in my favor.

You can keep telling me I'm wrong all you want, in doing so, you are saying many medical professionals who use HCQ are wrong too, after having treated hundred of high risk paitents with great success.


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: morrowasted]
    #26897690 - 08/24/20 07:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:


And it's a 5 day protocol, no need to dispense HCQ for a year. That's silly.




how in the fuck is a 5 day protocol gonna help people PROPHYLACTICALLY??

"By the time they are hospitalized it is too late."

A lot of these people dont even know they are sick and just end up having a stroke or something and thats how they land in the hospital.




You mean those high risk people with hypertension, diabetes and heart disease?

Have you seen any children in treatment?


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


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OfflineIce9
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Registered: 03/20/14
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: morrowasted]
    #26897691 - 08/24/20 07:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

How does it work?
Cinchona bark contains quinine, which is a medicine used to treat malaria. It also contains quinidine which is a medicine used to treat heart palpitations (arrhythmias).


Weird, I do not see see Hydroxychloroquinine as a listed endogenous chemical to that plant.
:elderno:


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: Ice9]
    #26897696 - 08/24/20 07:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
How does it work?
Cinchona bark contains quinine, which is a medicine used to treat malaria. It also contains quinidine which is a medicine used to treat heart palpitations (arrhythmias).


Weird, I do not see see Hydroxychloroquinine as a listed endogenous chemical to that plant.
:elderno:




In Peru, the bark extracts of cinchona tree was used to treat malaria and babesiosis started almost 400 years ago. About 200 years ago quinine was found to be the key anti-malaria compound in the bark. The analog of quinine, CQ was made in 1934 and formally introduced into clinical practice in the United States in 1947 for the prophylactic treatment of malaria. In addition, CQ was also used to treat rheumatoid arthritis, and lupus erythematosus. A safer derivative HCQ was made in 1955. In 2017, there were more than five million prescriptions of HCQ in the United States, indicating that in the absence of other drug interactions or special health conditions, HCQ should be a relatively safe drug.

:shrug:

Helps to read thoroughly.


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: HamHead]
    #26897704 - 08/24/20 07:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Still not produced by either species of tree, its produced semi-synthetically, despite the original article it comes from the bark of that tree.  Maybe he meant derived, but that's not what was said, and in the scientific community accuracy is important.


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: HamHead]
    #26897710 - 08/24/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HamHead said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:


And it's a 5 day protocol, no need to dispense HCQ for a year. That's silly.




how in the fuck is a 5 day protocol gonna help people PROPHYLACTICALLY??

"By the time they are hospitalized it is too late."

A lot of these people dont even know they are sick and just end up having a stroke or something and thats how they land in the hospital.




You mean those high risk people with hypertension, diabetes and heart disease?

Have you seen any children in treatment?


stop dodging my question.

And what does your question mean? Some of the people having strokes have hypertension yes. Hypertension is called the silent disease- most people have NO SYMPTOMS until very late. Millions of people with hypertension have no idea they have it. One of the many reasons we screen people before giving them meds. But it isnt just their BP we need. We need an EKG. We need to do labs for electrolytes

I have never treated a child


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: HamHead]
    #26897712 - 08/24/20 07:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HamHead said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

HamHead said:
Quote:

mndfreeze said:
So do seatbelts and heart transplants but god damn you are stuck on selling this drug.




That's great! Why do you think US isn't widely using HCQ then?

I mean, there's no patent because it's over 50 years old and widely available, so why not, if other countries are showing success?

Honestly?



We are not using it to treat covid bc it didnt work very well if at all and killed some people, and we are not using it for prophylaxis for the reasons i have already explained.

We have better drugs. You are being pointlessly stubborn.

Nobody is gonna be laughing at you if you just say "you know what guys I think I might have been wrong about this". In fact, people would respect you a lot more.




While medical professionals world wide are showing high success rates.

I'll remain stubborn as more evidence continues to mount in my favor.

You can keep telling me I'm wrong all you want, in doing so, you are saying many medical professionals who use HCQ are wrong too, after having treated hundred of high risk paitents with great success.



So are you advocating to use it as a treatment for hospitalized patients or not??? Because you literally JUST SAID not to do that. But you only said that because I said we used it and we stopped using because IT DIDNT WORK FOR US AND WE HAVE BETTER MEDS. If those doctors has access to remdesivir they would use it instead, I promise you


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: morrowasted]
    #26897732 - 08/24/20 07:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Many professional say there are few antiviral medications that help in late stage infection, ie, hospitalized.

Early treatment is what is being advocated by these medical professionals who are seeing success.

Using HCQ if someone is on a ventilator in a coma is useless.

Using HCQ on healthcare workers to prevent them from infection is what is being done in other countries.


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: HamHead]
    #26897898 - 08/24/20 09:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I can't believe that you somehow consider yourself an authority on Hydroxychloroquine sulfate because of what you've read online in your spare time. Truly, I'm amazed at your hubris.

Keep on rocking those spurs and riding those cows until they come home with the flying pigs, tis a fine look sir!!!


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26897920 - 08/24/20 10:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I can't believe that you somehow consider yourself an authority on Hydroxychloroquine sulfate because of what you've read online in your spare time. Truly, I'm amazed at your hubris.

Keep on rocking those spurs and riding those cows until they come home with the flying pigs, tis a fine look sir!!!




We'll watch together as evidence is released. Though, I feel no matter how many other professionals support HCQ, many will still doubt it because Trump.

Which is strange how a drug can take sides.

Edit.

I'm not claiming athority over anything. Nobody else is talking about HCQ and all I'm doing is sharing what others have shared and recommended themselves. Again, HCQ is an old drug, probably older than a majority of users on this forum, with millions of doses given to peoppe world wide. There is a lot of science that's been done.

I have clearly staked my claims on what I believe to be true about HCQ. I'm not telling anyone to take HCQ. I leave that choice to them, with hopes that they themselves will read and come to their own conclusions.


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


Edited by HamHead (08/24/20 10:19 PM)


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: HamHead] * 1
    #26897930 - 08/24/20 10:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HamHead said:
all I'm doing is sharing what others have shared and recommended themselves.



I'm not really sure what you're doing counts as 'sharing' though. Usually what is shared is something wanted by the party one is sharing with, right? However in this case I don't think there's anyone here who wants your particular rhetoric flavor of the month.

From the outside at least, it looks far more like you have an insistence on ramming whatever conclusions you have reached down the throats of anyone in the community who will give you the time of day. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see an act of kindness here so much as I see an act of sheer stubbornness on your part. You've made your position clear, as well as the fact that you will work yourself to the bone to defend it.

I dunno man. It all just seems really really unnecessary from where I sit.

Why can't you let it go and do something more wonderful with your time?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26898120 - 08/25/20 04:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

HamHead said:
all I'm doing is sharing what others have shared and recommended themselves.



I'm not really sure what you're doing counts as 'sharing' though. Usually what is shared is something wanted by the party one is sharing with, right? However in this case I don't think there's anyone here who wants your particular rhetoric flavor of the month.

From the outside at least, it looks far more like you have an insistence on ramming whatever conclusions you have reached down the throats of anyone in the community who will give you the time of day. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see an act of kindness here so much as I see an act of sheer stubbornness on your part. You've made your position clear, as well as the fact that you will work yourself to the bone to defend it.

I dunno man. It all just seems really really unnecessary from where I sit.

Why can't you let it go and do something more wonderful with your time?




I would have if HCQ wouldn't be ignored or politicized like it has been.

Again, I'm watching as evidence comes out and it gets shared.

Did you ask your classmates to bring specific items to show and tell because you didn't want to see what they wanted to bring to class?

Again, I'm sticking to my lanes. There are no new threads being created, mucking up the board. If you don't want to read about HCQ then do what I do with the @chickenwings thread and don't click it.


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: HamHead]
    #26898464 - 08/25/20 10:25 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Hydroxychloroquine is a completely synthetic chemical. It does not exist in nature


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: koods]
    #26898521 - 08/25/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Hydroxychloroquine is a completely synthetic chemical. It does not exist in nature




Isn't LSD synthesized? There's ergot but is it active without any processing?

:shrug:


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: HamHead]
    #26898540 - 08/25/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

So what? Eat some ergot and see how that goes ☠️


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinedownwardsfromzero
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: HamHead] * 1
    #26898649 - 08/25/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HamHead said:
Quote:

koods said:
Hydroxychloroquine is a completely synthetic chemical. It does not exist in nature




Isn't LSD synthesized? There's ergot but is it active without any processing?

:shrug:



LSD, since you mention it, is only partially synthesized. The lysergic acid portion is far too complicated for it to be worth synthesizing so we leave it to the fungi to do it for us.

(Hydroxy)chloroquine, OTOH, is (relatively) easily constructed out of crude oil isolates (with a dash of chlor-alkali process on the side). - cheap, easy and fully synthetic.

What they do have in common is a diethylamine moiety! And, come to think of it, LSD would be more use to an HCQ synthesis (but not much) than HCQ would be to an LSD synthesis. Just to disappoint any would-be chemists out there.

BTW, you're not only 'sharing' information, you're also interpreting it. Many of us here feel your interpretations of the material are deeply flawed.

EDIT: Is is really sensible to give an immunosuppressant in cases of infectious disease?


--------------------
Writhing and groaning


Edited by downwardsfromzero (08/25/20 12:20 PM)


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: downwardsfromzero] * 1
    #26898919 - 08/25/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Is is really sensible to give an immunosuppressant in cases of infectious disease?


It depends. Giving immunosuppressant corticosteroids to patients with severe COVID infection is pretty common. The immunosuppressant of choice is betamethasone. The reason is that at a certain point, the immune response to the infection is arguably doing more damage to the body than the infection itself. The release of inflammatory chemicals like interleukins in high amounts can lead to organ damage (like cardiomyopathy) and organ failure (by causing extreme dilation of the capillaries, which reduces the capacity of blood to perfuse across the capillary membrane and provide the organ with oxygen and other compounds needed for proper function). Additionally, it's my understanding is that choloroquine was originally used to treat a different infectious disease- malaria.

Chloroquine and related compounds have other mechanisms of action that may be helpful for a variety maladies in spite of their immunosuppressant qualities. Nevertheless, the evidence that it is particularly helpful for treating COVID19 infection seems to be weaker than the evidence that it can exacerbate certain complications that are associated with the infection itself. Furthermore, even if it were shown to be a reasonably effective prophylactic agent, there are logistical reasons to doubt that it would be particularly useful. There could be certain populations- like healthcare workers and first responders with frequent exposure- for whom prophylactic protocols could be reasonably implemented, but we can't simply mail out HCQ to the general population. Even outside the context of COVID, people beginning medications like HCQ undergo an assessment to determine the likelihood that the benefits of taking the drug will outweigh the consequences. With respect to HCQ, this assessment typically involves doing an electrocardiogram and drawing blood to determine the levels of certain electrolytes that can precipitate cardiac dysrhythmias when they are present outside of the standard physiologic concentrations in blood. We cannot conduct such an assessment on millions of people. The time, personnel, and expense required to conduct such an operation would be astronomical.

The main issue with HCQ as I see it- besides the fact that it doesn't appear to work very well for this disease- is that there is enormous overlap between the patient population who would benefit the most from such a drug and the patient population with whom it is unwise to use it. A significant proportion of the patients dying of COVID have pre-existing chronic heart and kidney conditions, which are precisely the conditions that typically contraindicate the use of HCQ.

In the USA, we have another drug called Remdesivir that interferes with viral replication. It's a lot more expensive, but it seems to be more effective than HCQ, and it's definitely safer than HCQ. We can use it with those patients in whom HCQ is contraindicated, and we have been having a reasonable amount of success with it. It's certainly not a magic bullet, though.

By the way, I appreciate the rest of your post. I don't know very much about chemistry, and, unlike HamHead, I appreciate it when those who have more expertise in a field than I do take the time to share their knowledge with me. :sun:


Edited by morrowasted (08/25/20 02:48 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #26899083 - 08/25/20 04:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yes the problem with HCQ as a potential prophylactic is the fact that a not insignificant portion of the population will have life threatening side effects.

I really find it amazing that someone like hamhead who is super worried about the side effects of vaccines completely ignores the known and predictable serious side effects of HCQ. Without surveillance of patients, HCQ will kill some people. This is a fact. We know its safety profile.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinedownwardsfromzero
Stranger than that

Registered: 08/11/20
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #26899166 - 08/25/20 05:29 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

Is is really sensible to give an immunosuppressant in cases of infectious disease?


It depends. Giving immunosuppressant corticosteroids to patients with severe COVID infection is pretty common. The immunosuppressant of choice is betamethasone. The reason is that at a certain point, the immune response to the infection is arguably doing more damage to the body than the infection itself. The release of inflammatory chemicals like interleukins in high amounts can lead to organ damage (like cardiomyopathy) and organ failure (by causing extreme dilation of the capillaries, which reduces the capacity of blood to perfuse across the capillary membrane and provide the organ with oxygen and other compounds needed for proper function). Additionally, it's my understanding is that choloroquine was originally used to treat a different infectious disease- malaria.

Chloroquine and related compounds have other mechanisms of action that may be helpful for a variety maladies in spite of their immunosuppressant qualities. Nevertheless, the evidence that it is particularly helpful for treating COVID19 infection seems to be weaker than the evidence that it can exacerbate certain complications that are associated with the infection itself. Furthermore, even if it were shown to be a reasonably effective prophylactic agent, there are logistical reasons to doubt that it would be particularly useful. There could be certain populations- like healthcare workers and first responders with frequent exposure- for whom prophylactic protocols could be reasonably implemented, but we can't simply mail out HCQ to the general population. Even outside the context of COVID, people beginning medications like HCQ undergo an assessment to determine the likelihood that the benefits of taking the drug will outweigh the consequences. With respect to HCQ, this assessment typically involves doing an electrocardiogram and drawing blood to determine the levels of certain electrolytes that can precipitate cardiac dysrhythmias when they are present outside of the standard physiologic concentrations in blood. We cannot conduct such an assessment on millions of people. The time, personnel, and expense required to conduct such an operation would be astronomical.

The main issue with HCQ as I see it- besides the fact that it doesn't appear to work very well for this disease- is that there is enormous overlap between the patient population who would benefit the most from such a drug and the patient population with whom it is unwise to use it. A significant proportion of the patients dying of COVID have pre-existing chronic heart and kidney conditions, which are precisely the conditions that typically contraindicate the use of HCQ.

In the USA, we have another drug called Remdesivir that interferes with viral replication. It's a lot more expensive, but it seems to be more effective than HCQ, and it's definitely safer than HCQ. We can use it with those patients in whom HCQ is contraindicated, and we have been having a reasonable amount of success with it. It's certainly not a magic bullet, though.

By the way, I appreciate the rest of your post. I don't know very much about chemistry, and, unlike HamHead, I appreciate it when those who have more expertise in a field than I do take the time to share their knowledge with me. :sun:



And I really appreciate the depth of your response - it makes me glad to have asked the question. Really, thank you. You've addressed the nuances of the clinical situation very well, and this has expanded my understanding. I try my best to take an overarching view of the sociological aspects of chemistry as a key element of modern life and a gateway to comprehension of some of the vast range of interactions between humanity and nature. And I'm eternally grateful for the work of those who take care of us when we're broken!


--------------------
Writhing and groaning


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: HamHead]
    #26899204 - 08/25/20 05:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HamHead said:
Quote:

koods said:
Hydroxychloroquine is a completely synthetic chemical. It does not exist in nature




Isn't LSD synthesized? There's ergot but is it active without any processing?

:shrug:




You’re the one copy pasting long essays about a tree that has abolutely nothing to do with HCQ. Why? Seems like your trying to imply that HCQ is a natural product that comes from a tree, when it is not. It is synthesized from petrochemicals, which are themselves synthetic products made from crude oil.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
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