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InvisibleCaps McGee
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #26752010 - 06/17/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not sure its literal: the idea that anything organic completely lacks nutrition is off base I think... may not be highly accessible, like with raw veggies high in fiber (cellulose) which is likely a better representation of what's going on with the coir... the little nutrition that is present is much more efficiently utilized by shiitake, which takes a full 7 weeks to consolidate prior to fruiting... you can really start to notice a difference on consistency after the shiitake have their way with the coir (after cubensis has run its course) so it undoubtedly is being consumed by the fungus... grain is cooked and much more accessible, and like most organisms, fungus will be lazy if it has the option... a more accurate description would likely be

"The culture utilizes the much easier accessed and abundant nutrition of the grain for sustenance, and the water retaining abilities of the comparably non(more complex, less accessible)-nutritious coir for supporting growth(osmotic pressure and all that)

That's a bold statement based on one test with one quantity of LME: I would continue the experiment with increasing amounts of LME to see if it increases yield, and also try and inoculate the coir using far less innoculant, perhaps even Josex' poke method, in order to simulate a truly "coir only" scenario... maybe even Rey it with coir of differing hydration levels to see if simply increasing water volume raises yield

If I'm understanding the purpose behind the experiment to expose exactly how nutritious coir is vs its contribution by sheer water volume, I'd consider this a fair start but incomplete as a trial... one result is A data point, in ONE set of conditions... hardly concrete


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: Caps McGee]
    #26752398 - 06/17/20 06:18 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Caps McGee said:

"The culture utilizes the much easier accessed and abundant nutrition of the grain for sustenance, and the water retaining abilities of the comparably non(more complex, less accessible)-nutritious coir for supporting growth(osmotic pressure and all that)






Yeah definitely, thats what i was thinking as well.

Im not making any claims here. Beyond that coir contributed the vast majority of the dry weight in this particular circumstance (Unless im missing something about mycs growth cycle which involves turning large numbers of h2o molecules into dry weight, which im not ruling out). Was just curious how far beyond the weight of the grain and water dry the dry weight could go from only coir

in my experiment (with its obviously limited sample size), over 200x the dry weight of the lme was produced in dry fruits. Thats minus the weight of the water.

This is much more than i was expecting. Especially when you consider the average yields of monotubs, around 1 to 2 oz (56g) dry per myco quart of spawn (170g or 6oz dry rye weight per myco quart), or 0.16 times the dry grain weight. To put that in perspective, if a bulk grow produced 200x (dry) the weight of the grain being used, youd be looking at over 1200 dry ounces per quart of spawn (lol). Ofc that would have to involve a spawn ratio of at least 100lb of coir per myco quart (double lol) , and 3.54 fucktons of water.

So dont mistake what im saying here, im just suprised by the ratio of dry fruit to grain, since its so far above what we see from bulk grows

Could you clarify a bit on your suggestions? I am confused on a few points

1. What would be the point of increasing the grain content? Dont we do that in bulk grows every day, and arent we pretty familiar with grain to dry yield ratios in a bulk setting?

2. Less inoculant would be interesting, but based on the myc morphology id be very suprised if it did much at all with even less food to support the inital growth. It grew these weird ropey rootlike structures with no typical fuzzy myc at all. I am curious to see whatll happen tho, i will give that a try

3. Im confused by the water recommendation since all my math assumes dry weights. Ofc too little water will cause no/poor fruiting, and ofc too much will limit fruiting as well. Are you suggesting that more or less water might result in more (or less) than 200x the dry grain weight in dry fruits? What exactly would that show us about what percentage of fruits dry weight comes from grain in an environment with almost no grain? Or would that be investigating a different question?

Thanks for the feedback btw :smile:


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: Caps McGee]
    #26753391 - 06/18/20 05:14 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Caps McGee said:
I'm not sure its literal: the idea that anything organic completely lacks nutrition is off base I think...



In Norway at least the specific definition of 'organic' food is that the soil you grow in has been thoroughly flushed for at least 5 years from all artificial fertilizers and stuff before you start growing food from it. It has nothing to do with nutrition :shrug:


Also some coir (like the one I use) has added nutrients in it and on the backside of the package is listed the specifications on the nutes like the one I posted here a few weeks ago. This experiment is interesting, here are some more pics of another thing hopefully OP might extract something useful from this as well.

Anyway this is from a LC experiment I did and this sample in this pic shows a fully colonized LC that pinned successfully like the rest of them. This was the least nutritious LC with only 0.1% MEA. One can only estimate what the mycelium mass of these jelly fish would equate to but fruits are easier to weigh but unfortunately I threw all of these away as soon as they started to pin so I never got to see how big they would have grown. And there is exactly 100mg of MEA in this broth.


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Offlinelefty24
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: Mateja]
    #26753466 - 06/18/20 06:37 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

So of I make brf jars and spawn 1:4 to coir all the nutrition comes from the brown rice still?


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: lefty24]
    #26753598 - 06/18/20 07:55 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah most of it will. It seems like later flushes could use more of whatever is available in the coir since the myc has had a while to break it down.


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: lefty24]
    #26753650 - 06/18/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I wouldn't recommend spawning BRF cakes to that extent, one cake through the cheese grater will amount to roughly a quart in volume and if you spawn that to 4qt of coir you need to remember that it's only about 30g of BRF in that substrate so keep in mind the myc will spend a good portion of those nutes on colonizing the new substrate and there won't be much left for fruit formation. You'll most likely get a few larger fruits from substrates that are kind of poor or low on nutrients Ime. But there's the 'BRF to bulk' thread which has much more info on that topic.

Back to this experiment. It just occurred to me that fruiting a LC's could be an alternative method to calculating how much is needed, I guess the metabolization and uptake of nutrients is different in liquid colonies but it's its an idea.


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: Mateja]
    #26753764 - 06/18/20 09:14 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mateah said:
I wouldn't recommend spawning BRF cakes to that extent, one cake through the cheese grater will amount to roughly a quart in volume




I thought so!  I said on here a few days ago that there is more mycellium in a BRF jar than the same sized jar with whole grains in it!  I do however still see the advantages and disadvantages of using both.


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26753906 - 06/18/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Let's keep focus on this experiment which is really exciting! BRF cakes can be discussed in other threads. :eatingout:


Anyway I was thinking on letting at least one of my LC's fruit for as long as it's capable of producing cause I already have a bunch that are full or near full colonization and I'll report the results here if I stumble across something interesting :thumbup:


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26754487 - 06/18/20 02:22 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mateah said:
Anyway I was thinking on letting at least one of my LC's fruit for as long as it's capable of producing cause I already have a bunch that are full or near full colonization and I'll report the results here if I stumble across something interesting :thumbup:




Really cool idea! Is there any way to get the dry weight of the fruits produced?

If some part of the lifecycle involves turning, say, 10 h20 molecules and one starch molecule into a new compound which weighs more than the starch and does not evaporate when drying, then that would throw any of my calculations about nutrition way off. 

Lc is a great way to figure that out, but you need to account for the inoculant too (agar, etc)

Quote:

lefty24 said:
So of I make brf jars and spawn 1:4 to coir all the nutrition comes from the brown rice still?



Quote:

Roger Clemency said:
Yeah most of it will. It seems like later flushes could use more of whatever is available in the coir since the myc has had a while to break it down.




Well, practically yes. Like if you want a decent yield, use a decent spawn to sub ratio.

But this experiment seems to suggest that, at least in low grain conditions w coir, a substantial portion of the nutrition can come from coir. In this example, at least 200x the dry weight of the LME has been produced in dry fruits. So in this case, less than .5% of the nutrition came from the grain

But ofc this isnt to suggest that this is a better way of doing things (it definitely isnt). I coulda used 1:1-3 grainspawn and this same bottle would have produced at 3-9g dry rather than 1g dry.

So practically yes, technically,  not necessarily


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"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
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InvisibleCaps McGee
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #26754601 - 06/18/20 02:57 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Organic is anything of natural origin, that is or was alive at some point... if I'm trying to sell it as food, sure: but I speaking in terms of metal vs consumable materials suck as leaf litters sawdust, coir etc... water absolutely plays a role in dry weight. The fruit grow larger with more water, there's no question about it oxygen and hydrogen both play vital roles in chemical bonds for the formation of more complex molecular structures: I'm not sure of its exact role, but if it's stable over time, there's likely hydrogen bonds involved... even if only tied to the development of enzymes and alkaloids, these things have mass and therefore contribute to the weight: though I'd suspect it deeply rooted in the physical structure of the fruit body itself... reason I suggested different initial hydration levels, is to eliminate/confirm water as a factor... I believe co2/o2 levels, as well as the timing for  the increase in air exchange, and temp swings  to play a direct role in dry weight, not through the physical transfer of compounds, but by increasing/decreasing the cultures' ability to metabolize... undoubtedly an interesting experiment in the works

:camping::popcorn::camping:


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: Caps McGee]
    #26754704 - 06/18/20 03:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Oh definitely, thats what i was pondering on. Ofc water and fae etc are gonna affect yields, I just wonder how much (when water isnt the bottleneck)

Also curious in those bond formations how much dry weight would be added from those bonds vs offgassed as co2 etc (oxygen being 80% of the mass of h2o and 8/11ths of co2). Depending on the exact metabolic process involved i suspect it would take a whole lot of hydrogen atoms to significantly affect dry weight, unless the process is doing something like combining gasses in the air with nutrition from the substrate and grain to make something that weighs more than its components (weight not mass)

Mateah's LC experiment might be a cool way to get an approximation for it, especially if you weigh the water/LC before and after and compare to dry weight. Cant really feasibly measure the gasses but its a start. Also suspect yield in that circumstance is gonna be limited by the far from ideal conditions in terms of FAE and surface conditions (apart from nutrition)

Really enjoying brainstorming this stuff woth you guys :smile:

I suck at chemistry so please feel free to correct any dumb shit i say lol


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"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #26754727 - 06/18/20 03:27 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

:takingnotes::takingnotes::takingnotes::takingnotes:

This is technical as shit, love it tho!


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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: Caps McGee]
    #26754748 - 06/18/20 03:34 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Just a minor point of pedantry, but, technically, not all organic compounds are produced by living organisms


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InvisibleCaps McGee
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: Apples in Mono]
    #26754760 - 06/18/20 03:39 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

For the sake of practicality for the statement in context... not familiar with any but also not a chemistry major lol


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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #26755770 - 06/18/20 09:47 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Keep that shit up and I'm gonna blow the whistle and have a mod move this to advanced cultivation page.

Keep on doing your thing!

Oh and I threw my grain water coir out a week ago. Didn't do much.


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: Sockadin]
    #26755860 - 06/18/20 10:27 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

lol...

I used a super aggressive burma isolate in this.

Im still intrigued by the morphology of the myc, it looks more like plant roots than mycelium


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"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
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OfflineManifoldPrime
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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #26756783 - 06/19/20 09:17 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

@C10 have you confirmed if the fruits grown on this were potent at all? It would be very curious indeed if fruits grown in such nutrient poor conditions were inert.


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Re: experiment: fruiting off STRAIGHT coir (no grain) [Re: ManifoldPrime]
    #26757500 - 06/19/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Good question!

But no, my elephant tolerance wouldnt tell me much about 1g lol


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"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
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