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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
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Victimhood
#26751634 - 06/17/20 01:06 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Is there such a thing as being a victim of one's own mind?
Does this abdicate one of responsibility?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz]
#26751668 - 06/17/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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unless you take yourself hostage, who abdicates what first?
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
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Hey now, I'm the one asking questions here!
Not that it isn't a fair question but I'm really just looking for opinions on the subject. I agree that the concept seems paradoxical.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz]
#26752301 - 06/17/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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maybe autoimmune diseases are that
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Yellow Pants



Registered: 05/14/17
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The self is complicated and numerous energies and vibes are vying for actuality. The scope could be immediate or long term so certain muses within the personality have a tooth to pick with others who may have gotten the benefit of the doubt.
So then there is a come to Jesus moment where there is reconciliation and maybe redemption down the road. Or maybe there isn’t where victimhood is inevitable.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz] 2
#26752385 - 06/17/20 06:11 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Is there such a thing as being a victim of one's own mind?
It strikes me that being a victim of other humans - especially when young - significantly increases the likelihood that one will be a victim of ones mind.
I don't believe that it is an inescapable state - people from every walk and circumstance have broken free of it - yet I do feel that it is a default state to be a victim to our vast consciousness and intelligence.
Perhaps it is a rite of passage to break free of it? Perhaps it is moreso a challenge, the more we live apart from mother earth?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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topdog82
Death Spirit



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I mean do you ever look at a past version of yourself and thought "Damn I can't believe I dated/hung out with such a dysfunctional person?" or "damn I don't know how I took on such a political belief"? Its the same thing. The core principle is going to be that
At that period of time you believed XYZ political belief because at the time you thought XYZ was genuinely the correct belief. And then you lacked free will or even ability to have a different opinion. I was abducted by my own mind to believe that literal socialism was the correct way in 2014
I came to a new conclusion. I take a lot of socialist principles but no longer beleive it to be the right way. 10 years from now I will have a different view etc.
So yes. Responsibility and free will is relative. But ultimately I think that you still need to acknowledge it as a concept to have a productive life
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz]
#26752461 - 06/17/20 06:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Many schizophrenics are definitely victims of their own minds, and society is of the opinion that yes, it does absolve them of responsibility. The infamous "insanity defense" for heinous acts done out of psychosis. But even in schizophrenics, many of whom hear voices sometimes with very complex personalities, perhaps we need to distinguish "mind" from "self." There's still a "you" in there at odds with the voice-being. So it can be complex, I think.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Yellow Pants



Registered: 05/14/17
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Many schizophrenics are definitely victims of their own minds, and society is of the opinion that yes, it does absolve them of responsibility. The infamous "insanity defense" for heinous acts done out of psychosis. But even in schizophrenics, many of whom hear voices sometimes with very complex personalities, perhaps we need to distinguish "mind" from "self." There's still a "you" in there at odds with the voice-being. So it can be complex, I think.
Feel like there are a bunch of salesmen making their pitch internally where the “ego” for lack of a better word receives and digests, potentially, these takes. Yet the ego is made of the same thing as the salesmen. So we aren’t to actuality yet.
And I would say various takes and pitches come loaded with a lot of momentum for one reason or another and help develop what comes to be the personality that gets actualized through the will. But there isn’t only one voice and so there is a bickering back and forth in terms of how to go about things. I think victimization is an acceptable word in this sense because some of the salesmen feel shorted and will let the ego know about it especially if things aren’t settled.
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redgreenvines
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I wonder if the salesmen are like the trickster in shamanism
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Brings to mind a few lines from The Recorded sayings of Zen Master Rinzai of Chin Province, Sutra.
“He’s always at home, yet forever on the way. The true man without rank went in and out the face.
The monks of the two halls gave equal shouts, but guest and host were obvious (!) Illumination and action are simultaneous, fundamentally without front or back.
A mirror confronting a form, an empty valley echoing a sound. Marvelously responding in any direction, he left not a trace behind.”
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (06/17/20 08:36 PM)
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Thank you for the replies
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
Rahz said: Is there such a thing as being a victim of one's own mind?
It strikes me that being a victim of other humans - especially when young - significantly increases the likelihood that one will be a victim of ones mind.
I don't believe that it is an inescapable state - people from every walk and circumstance have broken free of it - yet I do feel that it is a default state to be a victim to our vast consciousness and intelligence.
Perhaps it is a rite of passage to break free of it? Perhaps it is moreso a challenge, the more we live apart from mother earth?
I think you're right. Tough love and pointing out victimhood is not always a good strategy, when dealing with a narcissist for instance. When the only possible resolution is to acquiesce when the reality is plain as day, what do you do?
Walking away is extremely difficult, at least when you've invested a lot of time and energy into someone. Even when it's the right decision, it can feel all wrong. It hurts to care when that care does no good. And perhaps the possibility of breaking free is there, but people do things on their own time. It's impossible to know if or when that will happen.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz]
#26753739 - 06/18/20 09:05 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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“We think of the key, each in his prison thinking of the key, each confirms a prison.“
T.S Eliot, The Waste Land
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Oh, I know. in such a prison there are even no walls. Nothing to prevent walking away but one's own thoughts.
But when you love someone, you love them. I've read that when it's right you know it. I've never had that experience. And having feelings of care, one generally doesn't walk away at the first sign of trouble. It's only when patterns develop and various avenues have failed that one begins to loose hope.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz]
#26753938 - 06/18/20 10:23 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Would I be right if I guessed there is a particular situation in your life which was the catalyst for you bringing up this subject Rahz?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz]
#26753997 - 06/18/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Is there such a thing as being a victim of one's own mind?
Does this abdicate one of responsibility?
The answer to the first question is yes, as we all know, already: Fear is the simplest example, whether mistaking a stick for a snake, or having an unreasonable phobia.
The answer to the 2nd question, as is often the case, would seem to depend on the context.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz]
#26753998 - 06/18/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:But when you love someone, you love them. I've read that when it's right you know it. ...
aside from being in lockdown with a roomie that complains, which does pertain more to prisoner antics, I would say the following with regard to mate choices: Appearance - appeals - maybe strongly! - this will fade Behavior - decent - can degrade during confinement and age Compatibility - a few common interests - can increase or decrease over time Devotion - this may be the most important in knowing it, since when you keep your promises and your partner keeps theirs, even if one or both get ugly with age, grouchy with confinement, bored with shared interests, the caring for each other remains, if for no other reason than a promise which is more lasting than the body, and therefore a spiritual bond.
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Rahz
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: Would I be right if I guessed there is a particular situation in your life which was the catalyst for you bringing up this subject Rahz?
Yes. I have been supporting someone for the last 18 months and it ended badly yesterday. We got along well when there weren't issues, but also a very broken person with extreme narcissism. I have my own issues and feel like a failure for not figuring out how to make it work.
I did the best I could to be there for them, it just wasn't in me to be the person they needed me to be. I suspect their life will not be improving in the short term. All I had to do was let them be right, which I have done dozens of times. I just couldn't do it this time.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz]
#26754132 - 06/18/20 11:43 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Is there such a thing as being a victim of one's own mind?
Does this abdicate one of responsibility?
Ask Pinkerton. He is a professional victim.
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redgreenvines
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I have blocked professional victims in case it becomes contagious
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OrgoneConclusion
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I made the mistake of unblocking. My bad!
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

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Tell us all what the nickname Orgy, which I and rgv call you, means...?
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz] 1
#26755095 - 06/18/20 05:34 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: I did the best I could to be there for them, it just wasn't in me to be the person they needed me to be. I suspect their life will not be improving in the short term. All I had to do was let them be right, which I have done dozens of times. I just couldn't do it this time.
I already respected the hell out of you man, but I do even moreso now. It's truly a noble cause. I get it.
It's also a very silly one, I think, in hindsight. How much we might sacrifice ourselves to help another when, at base, they really are unhelpable.
Been there, got the T-shirt. I get it, and it hurts, and I want to heal their hurt, and your hurt, and my hurt, but none of that does any good for man nor beast, it seems. Not sure I enjoy the alternative though, because it feels selfish often. I've been there much of late too.
Where is the balance?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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laughingdog
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Well, seems there are 2 sides to such things.
meanwhile:
"Ain't it hard when you discover that, he wasn't really where it's at, after he took from you everything he could steal. How does it feel?" from a Bob Dylan song
So why 2 sides?, because what 'made' one assume the other was something they weren't? It is because there is an unresolved emotional need in oneself; that is unresolved due to its being too painful to face. So partly the cause is in our own psyche, but that doesn't mean we are bad or to blame, it just means we are human and were hurt, and haven't had the tools to deal with it yet. But the consequence is that we get caught in patterns that repeat till we deal with it.
How do I know this? I'm human too & have observed patterns in my own life, just like Bob.
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Thank you, I appreciate that.
It's all selfish I guess. It could seems silly, but honestly I didn't have anything better to do. I don't mean that in a bad way. There does seem to be a noble aspect even if it's not entirely altruistic. I'm selfish in many ways, but I don't find pleasure in doing things just to amuse myself like I did when I was younger.
And that's a great question, where is the balance? There is a certain level of detachment that I lacked. But if I was totally detached I don't think there would have been any commitment or devotion to helping them. Lacking detachment, some things can be manipulative in a way that makes the relationship worse. Being detached, some things can be manipulative in a way that potentially makes things better. In either case, I might be seen as "controlling and manipulative", but having no need keep the peace at any cost they can be angry and cry and maybe they will come around again, maybe not. The balance I guess is being detached enough to make the right decisions while still expressing some passion.
And it's interesting because despite the issues, this person isn't blind to these ideas and even expressed them to me at one point. They told me what they needed. I listened and it makes sense but being that person is more than just understanding. I had my own issues get in the way and when it came time to talk about it I was expecting too much from them and not enough from myself. That is why I sabotaged the easy solution, the one I knew would work. It wasn't good enough any more, for them or me.
And I don't think that can generally be fixed on the fly when there is a crisis. My experience is that growth happens later when the mind calms down and has a chance to really soak everything in and filter it honestly.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Ferdinando


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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz] 1
#26757057 - 06/19/20 11:02 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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the less ego you have the better behavior you have
when you start sitting ego is lost
so you have finer like more yogic mind
it is like swimming through water with yoga
every hour you sit and meditate the more ego is lost
and the less your ego hurts others
this is supposed to be done for 3000 hours until you have attained liberation
so soon start meditating much!
we need to think of it like this
do I want to spend 40 years meditating 20 minutes a day to attain enlightenment
if you do 2 x 45 minutes a day it can be done in 5 years!
so much important it is to make a habit of meditating much!
in a way I think we can say that the benefit of meditating is from reducing ego
when you have a mental garden and you take weeds out where you go becomes better
so it's like you don't do someting to others like not putting their heads down
same with yourself
you can call that benefit of meditation
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
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Thank you. I did the math and I've spent about 1400 hours meditating. It did me a lot of good. I can benefit from meditating more.
But I'm reminded of a story I read about on this forum many years ago. I think it was OC who posted it. It was about a guru in India who had thousands of followers. He would hold satsang and probably had many wise things to say and his followers would hang on his words and ask questions. He was sued by a woman for sexual harassment. Why would such a wise man be unable to talk a woman willingly into bed or respect their boundaries? Was it because he hadn't meditated for 3000 hours? Or because he had no experience with intimate relationships with women? I don't know the answer to that question. Perhaps it was both but I'll guess he didn't have much experience with women.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Totodile386
Foreigner, Vegan, Pesticide-Free


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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz] 1
#26757178 - 06/19/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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It reminds me of some quotes from Jesus.
“Anyone who loves their parent more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves their child more than Me is not worthy of Me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life, for My sake, will find it.
“Anyone who welcomes you welcomes Me, and anyone who welcomes Me welcomes the One (God) who sent Me. Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is My disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Jesus was a deadbeat dad. Just sayin'...
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

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Jesus is a deadbeat fag. Just sayin'...
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

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redgreenvines
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look, in the current situation I could sue OC for sexual offenses and it would be some time before the court made any decision. suing is an american right, but it is not always right. Having a large group of mindless followers is also a right, even if it is wrong. Sex is always right except when it is wrong. 3000 hours is not enough, it's never enough, it's always enough, I had enough, not of sex, but of nearly everything else.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

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There are no conclusions in confusionland.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Libby Custard basically rewrote American history, I thought it was Jello Cosby. whatever wibbles is good.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Custard's Last Stand was really about his lemonade stall...
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Ahh, how quickly these threads devolve.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz]
#26758194 - 06/19/20 06:18 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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degenerating into our own victims
we are victims of our own degeneratosity
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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I give to several charities because I am very degenerous.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
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Re: Victimhood [Re: Rahz]
#26758821 - 06/20/20 12:13 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Ahh, how quickly these threads devolve.
I could move it to the Pub for extra buttfuck or S&R where I would protect it over my dead body?
We've a good sense of middle ground in PS&P...
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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thanks, I was really proud of this summation
Quote:
redgreenvines said: degenerating into our own victims
we are victims of our own degeneratosity
and of how degenerous Ory's reply was!
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
Rahz said: Ahh, how quickly these threads devolve.
I could move it to the Pub for extra buttfuck or S&R where I would protect it over my dead body?
We've a good sense of middle ground in PS&P...
I was just teasing but thanks.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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