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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
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The 40-hr workweek
#26749371 - 06/16/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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The forty-hour workweek – a vestige of the New Deal – is completely arbitrary and useless. The economy could be sufficiently, perhaps especially, robust with many fewer hours worked – and indeed, many fewer workers in general. Our economy has been making-work for a long time; if Buckminster Fuller was writing about significantly streamlining the global economy in the 1950s, then surely it can in principle be done today.
The system is geared to be productive based upon its current structure, so no one has so far been incentivized to change, let alone overhaul it. With the coronavirus pandemic, this will start to change. Relying on human workers working at least forty hours per week has been exposed – it has proven itself to be a potentially fatal weakness during a major crisis. So the system’s inevitable push toward automation will undoubtedly be drastically accelerated from now on.
One other function of the forty-hour workweek was to keep people busy. To, in a sense, neutralize them. This benefits the power-structure, both in terms of government and business, so it quite easily evolved into being culturally. But now that automation is inevitable, we’re going to have to figure out what to do with an awful lot of people. And of course it is clear that eventually, the forty-hour workweek will have no meaning anymore. So it will be very interesting to see all these changes and how they unfold.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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ninja cat 09
A paranoid android



Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 4,170
Loc: Mexico
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I agree, but what worries me about this model is that wages will be lowered and people will be forced to get a second job, further busying them and neutralizing them.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
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Learning from the past, I propose that we require license plates for shoes, this means every pair of shoes has to have matching plates mounted on each heel, clearly indicating the state or province of residence, and unique approved number-letter combination, updated annually. The shoes will be trackable - part of the new regulation tracksuit. Situated in convenient locations, near liquor stores and cannabis shops, there will be plate making stations, where otherwise unemployed licensed workers can create new plates for new shoes and earn big bucks. Even the homeless will need plates on their shoes. In this way all people can be tracked passively, and anyone who wants to work for extra cash can do so and then get high any way they want.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,732
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Purrfect solution.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
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Quote:
ninja cat 09 said: I agree, but what worries me about this model is that wages will be lowered and people will be forced to get a second job, further busying them and neutralizing them.
Well yeah, that's what's happening right now as employers go to more and more part-time positions, so they don't have to give benefits. Obviously, these whisperings about a UBI are going to have to get louder and louder. I really see no other way for society to evolve than toward some kind of basic income system.
It's the dream of centuries, of millennia, for machines to do the work. Now that we're basically there, we're schizoid about it and don't know what to do.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,248
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I'm not sure that the pandemic will push automation along any faster. It may eventually and perhaps sooner than later lay bare the various ponzi schemes played by the rich and powerful. A true economic crash will be a major hindrance to research and development. When this pandemic started I was the optimist and you were the pessimist. You were right. I was wrong. The re-openings don't seems to be going well and businesses continue to fold. The riots aren't helping, and there are substantial locust concerns this year across West Africa, Pakistan and India. There are already solid forecasts of 30,000+ dying of starvation per day for many months. We don't generally hear about this because the news cycles are focused on the riots and covid. The net effect is a continued reduction of dollar value, international trade and domestic infrastructure maintenance. Large truck orders (goods transportation) for instance are down 60% over this month last year.
It's a dam that is very capable of bursting and very few want to consider or acknowledge even the possibility of it. But when one brings up that the stock market is a ponzi scheme people will nod their heads. When one brings up that fractional banking system is a ponzi scheme people nod their heads. When you bring up that the dollar is over valued and the government is spending money it doesn't have people nod their heads. When you bring up that hard currencies have left national reserves people understand it's bad but don't understand what it leads to. There are apparently several ways it could come about that nations, especially the USA, default on debt payments. This will cause bank crashes with no potential bailout and it will be like dominoes as every major dollar based financial institution folds. Martial law will be declared. National guard will be mobilized to "protect" national assets which will include things like cattle and chicken farms. EBT cards will no longer work. The poor will riot, first at intersections hoping to secure cash and goods. It won't take long for them to realize that cash is worthless and there's no nourishment to buy even if it weren't. They will move to neighborhoods and the police and millitary will be unable to maintain order.
Immigration will reverse. Millions of Latinos will migrate South and Millions of Asians will return to Asia. When it's all said and done the population of the USA may be reduced to 100 million or less. The rest of the world will not fair quite as badly but they'll have their hands full and be unable to either help or invade the USA. The Euro and that union being already on poor ground and dependent on international trade will also suffer a similar population reduction. In both cases diversity will be the opposite of "our greatest strength" and the governments will have to try, vainly, to control thousands of insurrections. China and Russia will be the winners but they will both be strained to feed their own people. The interruption of critical supply chains will insure that technology is suppressed for many decades.
But that's not all. Regional wars will break out without the USA to play world police. North Korea will take over South Korea, likely with the cost of millions of lives. China will take over Taiwan. Arab states will become increasingly hostile toward Israel who will be likely to use the nuclear option. Oil production will drop drastically.
With the Solar cycle predicted to be especially cool famine in Russia can come into play. Russia may try to invade Europe with the presence of NATO severely degraded. Successful or not this would place Germany in a worse position than the USA with a full scale conventional war following an economic collapse.
China's troubles and their penchant for harsh measures could create an organized insurrection against the PLA that would cause widespread damage to their capacity for being self sufficient.
And knowing human nature, will we be in a better position then to live without money and also concentrate energy and effort into technology development? It could be hundreds of years before conditions are right again. And we'll probably screw it up again.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Hey...I don't want to be cited for not renewing the plates...
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: The 40-hr workweek [Re: Rahz]
#26750032 - 06/16/20 08:04 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Automation is the way to go...definitely. I love the idea. I work in Information Technology and I implement such systems all of the time. Saves lot of cash for my employers and keeps me employed...lol. Since they don't have to pay all those minimum wage people they can pay me more and still save money!
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Savantfou
Stranger

Registered: 12/05/18
Posts: 25
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The 40-hr workweek [Re: Rahz]
#26750045 - 06/16/20 08:11 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very interesting view, but because we saw technologhy happen I believe the human psyche will strech back to it a lot faster if we fall. And maybe we would rebuild on stronger values that have more than eroded nowadays (education, listening to elders, democracy for real)
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
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Re: The 40-hr workweek [Re: Rahz]
#26750151 - 06/16/20 09:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: .....It's a dam that is very capable of bursting and very few want to consider or acknowledge even the possibility of it. ....... The interruption of critical supply chains will insure that technology is suppressed for many decades.....But that's not all. Regional wars will break out without the USA to play world police. ..... It could be hundreds of years before conditions are right again. And we'll probably screw it up again.
. I think that without the long shot of a vaccine, as you say: many of the dystopian possibilities, may compound & snowball like a row of dominos falling together. The political situation in the US also appears to have no possible light at the end of the tunnel. Like wise Climate change must be factored in. As DQ says automation may briefly play a part, before infrastructure and technology begin to be impaired. Long term even with a vaccine it may only stall, the many forces at work.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
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Re: The 40-hr workweek [Re: Rahz]
#26751116 - 06/17/20 09:16 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: I'm not sure that the pandemic will push automation along any faster. It may eventually and perhaps sooner than later lay bare the various ponzi schemes played by the rich and powerful. A true economic crash will be a major hindrance to research and development. When this pandemic started I was the optimist and you were the pessimist. You were right. I was wrong. The re-openings don't seems to be going well and businesses continue to fold. The riots aren't helping, and there are substantial locust concerns this year across West Africa, Pakistan and India. There are already solid forecasts of 30,000+ dying of starvation per day for many months. We don't generally hear about this because the news cycles are focused on the riots and covid. The net effect is a continued reduction of dollar value, international trade and domestic infrastructure maintenance. Large truck orders (goods transportation) for instance are down 60% over this month last year.
It's a dam that is very capable of bursting and very few want to consider or acknowledge even the possibility of it. But when one brings up that the stock market is a ponzi scheme people will nod their heads. When one brings up that fractional banking system is a ponzi scheme people nod their heads. When you bring up that the dollar is over valued and the government is spending money it doesn't have people nod their heads. When you bring up that hard currencies have left national reserves people understand it's bad but don't understand what it leads to. There are apparently several ways it could come about that nations, especially the USA, default on debt payments. This will cause bank crashes with no potential bailout and it will be like dominoes as every major dollar based financial institution folds. Martial law will be declared. National guard will be mobilized to "protect" national assets which will include things like cattle and chicken farms. EBT cards will no longer work. The poor will riot, first at intersections hoping to secure cash and goods. It won't take long for them to realize that cash is worthless and there's no nourishment to buy even if it weren't. They will move to neighborhoods and the police and millitary will be unable to maintain order.
Immigration will reverse. Millions of Latinos will migrate South and Millions of Asians will return to Asia. When it's all said and done the population of the USA may be reduced to 100 million or less. The rest of the world will not fair quite as badly but they'll have their hands full and be unable to either help or invade the USA. The Euro and that union being already on poor ground and dependent on international trade will also suffer a similar population reduction. In both cases diversity will be the opposite of "our greatest strength" and the governments will have to try, vainly, to control thousands of insurrections. China and Russia will be the winners but they will both be strained to feed their own people. The interruption of critical supply chains will insure that technology is suppressed for many decades.
But that's not all. Regional wars will break out without the USA to play world police. North Korea will take over South Korea, likely with the cost of millions of lives. China will take over Taiwan. Arab states will become increasingly hostile toward Israel who will be likely to use the nuclear option. Oil production will drop drastically.
With the Solar cycle predicted to be especially cool famine in Russia can come into play. Russia may try to invade Europe with the presence of NATO severely degraded. Successful or not this would place Germany in a worse position than the USA with a full scale conventional war following an economic collapse.
China's troubles and their penchant for harsh measures could create an organized insurrection against the PLA that would cause widespread damage to their capacity for being self sufficient.
And knowing human nature, will we be in a better position then to live without money and also concentrate energy and effort into technology development? It could be hundreds of years before conditions are right again. And we'll probably screw it up again.

What a post! I am at a loss to add anything constructive to that, except to say that it's possible and, as you illustrate beautifully, unnervingly plausible. Certainly, the average American has no conception of how serious all this is.
One thing I have been focused on is the dollar. The Fed has spent, what, three, four trillion dollars so far on this crisis? Out of thin air. Major businesses and banks have been given the green light to write themselves blank checks if they fuck up. In a year or two or three, I dunno, the dollar will be worth less than used toilet paper.
But that's just one facet of your entire argument, which is, sadly, quite cogent.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
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Re: The 40-hr workweek [Re: Rahz]
#26751275 - 06/17/20 10:16 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Rahz; You spin the most detailed of armageddons. Things are certainly bad, and the workweek is not the only victim in scope. Fear is the mindkiller.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,732
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Even with everything going on, compared to if you woke up this morning and found yourself as you are -but in 1700s, things are truly good & they’ve never been better. Got to keep an appropriate perspective.
It’s just that there’s still a lot of work to be done (how perceptive of me, hu? ). Fear is the mindkiller indeed.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
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I have never been so clean.
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Darwin23
INFJ



Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 3,279
Loc: United States
Last seen: 16 days, 22 hours
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So, I'm actually working a 40 hour workweek for the first time in years. I've always worked much more than 40 hours a week (typically had jobs that would incentivize me being there, not paid hourly). Especially with a 4 day workweek, it doesn't feel like overkill, at all, imo.
I am afraid for what automation will bring. I work with AAA as a dispatcher. I'm basically an analogue version of Uber or Lyft's system. I find drivers that can get out in a reasonable amount of time. It actually pays really well. In any case, I can see us being phased out. Even since starting, we've closed two of our six major branches. I'm watching it happen in real time.
I have recently been thinking about getting into locksmithing. It pays well and is highly specialized. You can't very well sell a machine that gets into any lock, so in that respect, it's a safe career path.
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Take a look at my journal
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Rahz said: .....There are already solid forecasts of 30,000+ dying of starvation per day for many months. We don't generally hear about this because the news cycles are focused on the riots and covid. The net effect is a continued reduction of dollar value, international trade and domestic infrastructure maintenance. Large truck orders (goods transportation) for instance are down 60% over this month last year......
And knowing human nature, will we be in a better position then to live without money and also concentrate energy and effort into technology development? It could be hundreds of years before conditions are right again. And we'll probably screw it up again.
What a post! I am at a loss to add anything constructive to that, except to say that it's possible and, as you illustrate beautifully, unnervingly plausible. Certainly, the average American has no conception of how serious all this is.
One thing I have been focused on is the dollar. The Fed has spent, what, three, four trillion dollars so far on this crisis? Out of thin air. Major businesses and banks have been given the green light to write themselves blank checks if they fuck up. In a year or two or three, I dunno, the dollar will be worth less than used toilet paper.
But that's just one facet of your entire argument, which is, sadly, quite cogent.
. And even Rahz left out a lot of stuff:
Hacking & Ongoing cyber wars, — post Stuxnet & Nitro Zeus, this is potentially deadly: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nitro+Zeus&t=hk&ia=web
Ocean acidification, with the death of coral for starters...
Major world wide extinctions, (When top predators disappear whole eco-systems suffer—think China & shark fin soup)
Climate change: Flooded cities, crop failures, drinking water shortages, mass migrations, more fires like the one Australia, quite possibly more worse hurricanes.
Pollution on every level possible: . Pesticides, first on food, then in air, then in all water, then in us. . Plastic everywhere (in the atmosphere (nano particles), in the ocean, and then to food containers & now in our bodies). . Chemical pollution: non stick cookware still being sold, same chemical (a chemical class called PFAS or PFCs) in dental floss going directly into our mouths, a corrupt FDA, prescription drugs, ending up in the water supply, then fish, — all now fish unsafe to eat regularly, from either mercury, sewage dumping, factory dumping, or agricultural run off. A cornucopia of unpronounceable chemicals, under every middle class persons’ kitchen sink, and in all their ‘personal care’ products in the bathroom, & known poisons in cosmetics. And of course rising cancer rates as a result. . Biological pollution: mad cow disease, viruses in pigs, antibiotics in meat, hormones in milk, over prescription of antibiotics resulting in antibiotic resistant bacteria, especially in hospitals. Patented terminator seeds. Biological weapons labs and their stockpiles. Unknown future results of CRISPR. Corporate focus on producing food for profit, and not for nutrient value, (with resulting diabetes epidemic in many affluent nations) . Radioactive pollutants: stock piles of nuclear waste, ‘spent’ uranium armor piercing bullets, lost bombs, nuclear arsenals, Fukashima disaster dumping in the ocean, since 2015, Chernobyl disaster, other reactors located on geologic fault lines, or near cities. Very unstable governments with nuclear weapons: Pakistan & North Korea.
Interdependence of all capitalistic / industrialized (electricity & oil dependent) nations on one another. In other words a vulnerability of all collapsing at once exists.
A shortage of certain rare metals & resultant competition between the USA & China. This has already begun.
US physical infra structure old: Modern (post Roman, who had a better, but lost formula) concert aging https://duckduckgo.com/?q=service+life+of+concrete+structures&t=hk&ia=web
Many essential computers run on obsolete operating systems.
Forest fires are caused in California by high power lines, that cannot be upgraded, thus more will occur https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fires+are+caused+in+California+by+high+power+lines%2C&t=hq&ia=news
The same experts that predicted this pandemic, predict future ones.
Both future presidential candidates are horrible and likely only to make things worse.
Unfortunately even though this list is also rather incomplete, in any case, between this & DividedQuantum’s and Rahz’s points about the economy etc., it is obvious that regardless of a vaccine for covid-19 happening or not, there are too many issues for them all, if any, to be fixed. Also unfortunately whether we like it or not the collapse of both empires, nations, and collections of interdependent states, are the rule and not the exception.
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Brian Jones
Club 27



Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,362
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 57 minutes, 13 seconds
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
ninja cat 09 said: I agree, but what worries me about this model is that wages will be lowered and people will be forced to get a second job, further busying them and neutralizing them.
Well yeah, that's what's happening right now as employers go to more and more part-time positions, so they don't have to give benefits. Obviously, these whisperings about a UBI are going to have to get louder and louder. I really see no other way for society to evolve than toward some kind of basic income system.
It's the dream of centuries, of millennia, for machines to do the work. Now that we're basically there, we're schizoid about it and don't know what to do.
Walmart is talking about getting rid of all cashiers.
They will need one for liquor.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
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As regards one of my claims: I posted this on another forum (under another pseudonym): "Are many computers essential to the USA, running on obsolete operating systems?"
the answer from an Engineer at a computer company:
"The number of those that do, you would be really, really surprised. Especially in government, financial and healthcare. I used to work for a utility company in Texas, and even as of 2020, they are still running on Windows XP and Windows NT? Why?
Because the company that made the proprietary application went out of business, so they CAN’T upgrade it because there is no one to do it. So to answer your question, there is a LOT of “pray it doesn’t break” out there in the wild."
And of course it seems this comment was only in regards to the USA. So indeed this is another weak link, in world wide stability.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
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Interesting. And if we would spend the initial investment in upgrading our software systems, it would seem logical that one result of that might be the need for fewer workers/hours worked. So we get back to the artificiality of 40 hours.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
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DQ said ..." And if we would spend the initial investment in upgrading our software systems"
But
as the engineer said..."Because the company that made the proprietary application went out of business, so they CAN’T upgrade it because there is no one to do it."
This seems to be true of many use cases.
But of course automation, will spread anyway in other areas. But the point about outdated infra structure is not about automation, but about the vulnerability of our interconnected technology. As detailed among other factors in my previous post, (at 06/18/20 01:26 PM).
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