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shivas.wisdom
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Registered: 02/19/09
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Do you consider mutual aid alone to not be enough?
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ShroomerInTheRye
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What do you consider "mutual aid"?
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tyrannicalrex
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"Anarchists believe that communities can meet their needs through mutual aid rather than cutthroat competition for profit".
This is what drives (seemingly) most if not all businesses, doctors, lawyers, etc.... They instill it in their children at home and in schools. How many well trained docs from good schools do you think would participate in something like that? They owe hundreds of thousands of dollars usually. Also some of the families that a lot of docs come from are already wealthy or well off and do not have to worry about money or police fucking with them etc... how many farmers in america would give up their subsidies etc...and trade small amounts of food to have a broke leg fixed, or a shot for a cow etc...the only way something like your post would work if it were to be total and complete anarchy world wide and a destruction of every single power structure in place, but then another group of snakes would take over with the promises of a great future if you'll just listen to them and do what they say/want etc....it's a vicious circle of fucked up shit.
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tyrannicalrex
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"The term was originally popularized by the Russian anarchist Peter Kropotkin and spread through international anarchist networks. Kropotkin, a naturalist and biologist, argued in Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution (1902) that it is reciprocity and cooperation, not bloodthirsty competition, that enables species from the smallest microorganisms to human societies to survive and thrive. This challenged the Social Darwinist dogma of “survival of the fittest” that business elites used to justify the exploitation and inequality that accompanied the expansion of global capitalism in the nineteenth century. Kropotkin made a scientific and philosophical case for reorganizing society according to the principles of mutual aid, which he described as “the close dependency of every one’s happiness upon the happiness of all” and “the sense of justice, or equity, which brings the individual to consider the rights of every other individual as equal to his own.”
Do you REALLY think that people are going to adopt this model for a new society? In light of the way people are acting now on ANY side? I love it personally, but in reality this will NEVER fly because the ones that wouldn't profit/win/gain from it are in control and they have a fucking superior grip. It's been put in place over centuries slowly but surely incrementally, and hidden under the guises of "what's good for the people" etc...Some people have a superiority complex and will NEVER rub elbows the "common people".
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ShroomerInTheRye
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Registered: 01/12/12
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It's a beautiful thought, yes, but improbable to implement because of the nature of being human.
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
ShroomerInTheRye said: What do you consider "mutual aid"?
I provide an explanation here
Quote:
tyrannicalrex said: "Anarchists believe that communities can meet their needs through mutual aid rather than cutthroat competition for profit".
This is what drives (seemingly) most if not all businesses, doctors, lawyers, etc.... They instill it in their children at home and in schools. How many well trained docs from good schools do you think would participate in something like that? They owe hundreds of thousands of dollars usually. Also some of the families that a lot of docs come from are already wealthy or well off and do not have to worry about money or police fucking with them etc... how many farmers in america would give up their subsidies etc...and trade small amounts of food to have a broke leg fixed, or a shot for a cow etc...the only way something like your post would work if it were to be total and complete anarchy world wide and a destruction of every single power structure in place, but then another group of snakes would take over with the promises of a great future if you'll just listen to them and do what they say/want etc....it's a vicious circle of fucked up shit.
Yes this is what drives businesses, doctors, lawyers, etc capitalism - but the argument is that "cutthroat competition for profit" as necessary for the health of human society is a myth perpetuated by the ruling class that assists their exploitation of the rest of us.
This myth is pervasive; as you display here, it's easier to imagine an end to the world than an end to capitalism. Capitalist realism is loosely defined as the predominant conception that capitalism is the only viable economic system, and thus there can be no imaginable alternative.
For example, if we look at your arguments against doctor participation in mutual aid - these arguments are based on issues intrinsic to the current capitalist system rather than inherent to the profession: student debt; class division. How come you didn't consider opposing examples like Medecins Sans Frontieres instead?
Looking at your farmer example, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of mutual aid - it's not a barter type system: "neither a tit-for-tat exchange nor the sort of one-way assistance that a charity organization offers, but a free interchange of assistance and resources".
There are already examples of mutual aid in action in the USA. Check out Mutual Aid Disaster Relief or Common Ground Relief for a couple examples - look into the Greek migrant squats for some awesome international examples of what mutual aid can accomplish.
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ShroomerInTheRye
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Okay, yeah, that would be great if that were happening, but it's not happening and it'll be hard to get people to come over to that side.
Take a look at student loans. The concept of "student loan forgiveness" and "free college" is being kicked around in the USA, right? You've got more voices against it than for it. Would it benefit everyone if we could pursue educations more along what we feel is right in our hearts? Absolutely. Does anyone want to pay for that? No. We would much rather send our money overseas to bomb little brown kids.
I took out a student loan to better society. I literally got to rewrite laws. Now people can marry whoever they want, but me? I'm mired in student debt for others to have that right. Where's my aid? Nobody's reached in and helped on that front but man, I personally know many people who've benefitted from that.
Don't take it as complaining. I mean it's kinda complaining, but I realize I put myself there. I got to do something most people do not get to do, but every night I lay awake with racing thoughts of "was it the right thing to do"?
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
ShroomerInTheRye said: It's a beautiful thought, yes, but improbable to implement because of the nature of being human.
If your doubt is based on social Darwinism as human nature, I highly suggest that you at least skim this book: Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution. It's basically an argument for mutual aid on biological and evolutionary terms.
Quote:
Introduction
Two aspects of animal life impressed me most during the journeys which I made in my youth in Eastern Siberia and Northern Manchuria. One of them was the extreme severity of the struggle for existence which most species of animals have to carry on against an inclement Nature; the enormous destruction of life which periodically results from natural agencies; and the consequent paucity of life over the vast territory which fell under my observation. And the other was, that even in those few spots where animal life teemed in abundance, I failed to find — although I was eagerly looking for it — that bitter struggle for the means of existence, among animals belonging to the same species, which was considered by most Darwinists (though not always by Darwin himself) as the dominant characteristic of struggle for life, and the main factor of evolution.
[...]
On the other hand, wherever I saw animal life in abundance, as, for instance, on the lakes where scores of species and millions of individuals came together to rear their progeny; in the colonies of rodents; in the migrations of birds which took place at that time on a truly American scale along the Usuri; and especially in a migration of fallow-deer which I witnessed on the Amur, and during which scores of thousands of these intelligent animals came together from an immense territory, flying before the coming deep snow, in order to cross the Amur where it is narrowest — in all these scenes of animal life which passed before my eyes, I saw Mutual Aid and Mutual Support carried on to an extent which made me suspect in it a feature of the greatest importance for the maintenance of life, the preservation of each species, and its further evolution.
And finally, I saw among the semi-wild cattle and horses in Transbaikalia, among the wild ruminants everywhere, the squirrels, and so on, that when animals have to struggle against scarcity of food, in consequence of one of the above-mentioned causes, the whole of that portion of the species which is affected by the calamity, comes out of the ordeal so much impoverished in vigour and health, that no progressive evolution of the species can be based upon such periods of keen competition.
Consequently, when my attention was drawn, later on, to the relations between Darwinism and Sociology, I could agree with none of the works and pamphlets that had been written upon this important subject. They all endeavoured to prove that Man, owing to his higher intelligence and knowledge, may mitigate the harshness of the struggle for life between men; but they all recognized at the same time that the struggle for the means of existence, of every animal against all its congeners, and of every man against all other men, was “a law of Nature.” This view, however, I could not accept, because I was persuaded that to admit a pitiless inner war for life within each species, and to see in that war a condition of progress, was to admit something which not only had not yet been proved, but also lacked confirmation from direct observation.
On the contrary, a lecture “On the Law of Mutual Aid,” which was delivered at a Russian Congress of Naturalists, in January 1880, by the well-known zoologist, Professor Kessler, the then Dean of the St. Petersburg University, struck me as throwing a new light on the whole subject. Kessler’s idea was, that besides the law of Mutual Struggle there is in Nature the law of Mutual Aid, which, for the success of the struggle for life, and especially for the progressive evolution of the species, is far more important than the law of mutual contest. This suggestion — which was, in reality, nothing but a further development of the ideas expressed by Darwin himself in The Descent of Man — seemed to me so correct and of so great an importance, that since I became acquainted with it (in 1883) I began to collect materials for further developing the idea, which Kessler had only cursorily sketched in his lecture, but had not lived to develop. He died in 1881.
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
ShroomerInTheRye said: Okay, yeah, that would be great if that were happening, but it's not happening and it'll be hard to get people to come over to that side.
Take a look at student loans. The concept of "student loan forgiveness" and "free college" is being kicked around in the USA, right? You've got more voices against it than for it. Would it benefit everyone if we could pursue educations more along what we feel is right in our hearts? Absolutely. Does anyone want to pay for that? No. We would much rather send our money overseas to bomb little brown kids.
I took out a student loan to better society. I literally got to rewrite laws. Now people can marry whoever they want, but me? I'm mired in student debt for others to have that right. Where's my aid? Nobody's reached in and helped on that front but man, I personally know many people who've benefitted from that.
Don't take it as complaining. I mean it's kinda complaining, but I realize I put myself there. I got to do something most people do not get to do, but every night I lay awake with racing thoughts of "was it the right thing to do"?
One of the core ideas behind mutual aid - and every other method of anarchist organizing - is that they don't require top-down change.
Think on these terms: instead of asking yourself how you can convince the government to forgive your student loans, ask yourself how you can organize within your community to meet everyone's basic needs directly - because once unpaid loans don't mean homelessness, starvation, or sickness, what's the threat in refusing to pay?
And this type of organization definitely is happening! Check out the examples I just referred to tyrannicalrex
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,331
Loc: subtropics
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"Yes this is what drives businesses, doctors, lawyers, etc capitalism - but the argument is that "cutthroat competition for profit" as necessary for the health of human society is a myth perpetuated by the ruling class that assists their exploitation of the rest of us.
This myth is pervasive; as you display here, it's easier to imagine an end to the world than an end to capitalism. Capitalist realism is loosely defined as the predominant conception that capitalism is the only viable economic system, and thus there can be no imaginable alternative".
It is in place for centuries more. I will NEVER see this system fall, younger people might and I hope they change it. It will have to change from within in increments slowly over time it seems. Just like it got it's hold on society over time. There is no way it can change (let's say in a year? 2 years? More than 2?) unless every single system world wide changes at the same time. I'm with you man, I love what you're saying so don't get me wrong. Do you think the ones in power are going to relinquish ANY fucking thing(s) they have? They won't even pay a living minimum wage for fucks sake!
ME: You can still make 3 billion and give more to the workers.
CORP: NO! It is our right and we want 5 billion. 3 billion isn't enough!
 
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ShroomerInTheRye
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Registered: 01/12/12
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Think on these terms: instead of asking yourself how you can convince the government to forgive your student loans, ask yourself how you can organize within your community to meet everyone's basic needs directly - because once unpaid loans don't mean homelessness, starvation, or sickness, what's the threat in refusing to pay?
If you don't pay your student loans, they garnish your wages, basic needs met or not.
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shivas.wisdom
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Did you check out the examples I suggested? They could be considered small increments of change, in that they don't directly attack the state while still managing to set up highly effective networks of mutual aid.
https://www.commongroundrelief.org/ https://mutualaiddisasterrelief.org/
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
ShroomerInTheRye said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Think on these terms: instead of asking yourself how you can convince the government to forgive your student loans, ask yourself how you can organize within your community to meet everyone's basic needs directly - because once unpaid loans don't mean homelessness, starvation, or sickness, what's the threat in refusing to pay?
If you don't pay your student loans, they garnish your wages, basic needs met or not.
Why do you work, if not to be able to afford your basic needs? If they can be met though other methods, the traditional 9-5 can get the same treatment as student debt.
Yea, the issue is systemic and multifaceted - I'm not sure how shutting down alternatives is more effective.
Even if we can't achieve everything all at once - just like early navigators used the stars as guides, we can use the concept of the best world possible to guide us toward a better world.
But if you're constantly shitting on suggestions as impossible without at least attempting to suggest a better alternative - how are you helping things change?
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ShroomerInTheRye
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It's not constantly shitting on suggestions, it's just being realistic about people. We aren't going to change folks in this lifetime. Young people are coming around and embracing the idea of mutual aid, but until there's more of them in power than old money hoarding white guys, we can't overthrow the system. It's too powerful.
Look at Amazon. People were catching the COVID and there were cries to boycott Amazon because of it. Nobody stopped giving their money to Jeff Bezos.
Nobody in society cares about anyone else. Your model depends on others giving a shit about people. The truth is nobody cares about anyone besides themselves and their families. It comes from a fear of lack.
If you want to change society and REALLY implement mutual aid, you have to take the fear of lack out of nearly everyone on the planet.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,331
Loc: subtropics
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Quote:
ShroomerInTheRye said: It's not constantly shitting on suggestions, it's just being realistic about people. We aren't going to change folks in this lifetime. Young people are coming around and embracing the idea of mutual aid, but until there's more of them in power than old money hoarding white guys, we can't overthrow the system. It's too powerful.
Look at Amazon. People were catching the COVID and there were cries to boycott Amazon because of it. Nobody stopped giving their money to Jeff Bezos.
Nobody in society cares about anyone else. Your model depends on others giving a shit about people. The truth is nobody cares about anyone besides themselves and their families. It comes from a fear of lack.
If you want to change society and REALLY implement mutual aid, you have to take the fear of lack out of nearly everyone on the planet.
Yep, unfortunately a lot of your statement is truth.
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ShroomerInTheRye
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I wish it wasn't. I get and respect how far we could come as one human family if we gave even the smallest shit about each other. We could be living in Star Trek times where there's no longer a need for money and there's aliens. If there's no benefit in it for the "me", why would anyone do it for the "we"? It's just not the world we live in.
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tyrannicalrex
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I'm with you.
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shivas.wisdom
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I still don't understand - I provided two examples of mutual aid organizations that originated within the USA, and continue to operate in the USA:
https://www.commongroundrelief.org/ https://mutualaiddisasterrelief.org/
So the argument that mutual aid won't work because "nobody cares about anyone besides themselves and their families" is patently untrue. I just provided you with two examples of mutual aid in action. I also provided you with biological and evolutionary evidence in support of mutual aid.
Why should we believe your gut feeling instead? Can you explain why the mutual aid organizations I linked to are ineffective; or why the model works for them but wouldn't work in your case?
Quote:
If you want to change society and REALLY implement mutual aid, you have to take the fear of lack out of nearly everyone on the planet.
The function of mutual aid is to do exactly this, but you seem to be under the impression that anything that doesn't operate on a global scale would be ineffective. Personally, I don't think such global change is possible and if that's what you're waiting for you'll be waiting forever - instead we have to envision how things would look like if they changed from the ground up because that's they only way we can implement change directly.
If taking away fear of lack is integral to changing society, wouldn't every instance of mutual aid that managed to take away this fear for a finite amount of people still hold a benefit? Wouldn't every additional person who benefited from this removal of fear increase the likelihood that more people would start participating in expanding mutual aid programs? Do you see the snowball?
Are you doing anything other than waiting? (god, what an endless wait!)
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shivas.wisdom
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Common Ground and MADR both originated in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina btw, if we're talking about challenging conditions. Still going strong 15 years later.
Here's some long-form journalism on them from 2006 - it's worth the read!
A Healthy Dose of Anarchy - After Katrina, nontraditional, decentralized relief steps in where big government and big charity failed.
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cannabinated



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https://twitter.com/CBSLA/status/1273477470298279938/photo/1
police just killed the brother of the kid that was lynched in cali
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