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OfflineEntheoGod
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Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method?
    #26744457 - 06/14/20 04:46 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Hello again community. I am here yet again seeking advice! Here recently (past couple months) I havent had the greatest luck with WBS. I am inexperienced with other grains so I would like to stick with the WBS for now. (considering im practically broke) The problems I am having are:

The WBS looks great after being PC'd for 90 minutes at 15 psi, I inoculate once cool and they begin colonizing fairly quickly with first signs showing up around 3-4 days after inoc. After letting them colonize to what I believe to be 20-40% colonization, I will shake them and here is where things begin to go south.

After the first shake, things recover but super slow and I notice much more condensation appearing on the inside of the WBS jars. I have had this happen in the past and everything turns out fine ya know, just a little condensation. Even these jars look fine up until they colonize almost all the way and this is what I am left with.





If I were to shake these jars (which I did half of them) they recover super slowly and look very weak.

This is after 24 hours of recovering from the last shake:





and this is what half of the jars look like that I did not shake again to see recovery rate:



Theres just so much condensation in the jars that I am concerned. However I have had this happen in the past as well and they smell fine and dandy, they colonize CVG up to a certain point then it doesnt fully colonize a tub. The tub in question ends up contaminating.

My questions are: what could be causing the condensation, what can I do about it, could the seeds be needing longer to colonize, would that help with the substrate colonizing fully, what causes the weak myc recovery. Any and all opinions are super appreciated. I am always willing to admit my mistakes and improve going forward so please if anyone has anything beneficial to say I would as I stated earlier, greatly appreciate it as I am out of ideas other than allowing the seeds to colonize longer or drying the seeds better before pcing them. Also I do remove them from the pc after the pressure cooker has lost pressure not exactly when its cool as they seeds are still hot to the touch. I shake them then to disperse what water buildup there is. Remember what i said though, things look fine up until I shake the first or second time. After that things start looking sketchy.


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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26744562 - 06/14/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

What are you using to inoculate them?  I’ve only ever had to shake grain jars once.. how many times are you shaking them? 

If you’re pcing them for 90 minutes, that should be enough.. my money is on the inoculate being bacterial.  What’s your lid set up?

Faht


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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: fahtster]
    #26744607 - 06/14/20 06:10 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

:whathesaid:


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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: fahtster]
    #26744633 - 06/14/20 06:25 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Hey, thanks for the response fahtster!

Im using MS syringe to inoculate. I have had success with 3 out of 5 of the syringes I got. The last two syringes have produced very weak myc towards the end of colonization of the jars. There have been some temperature fluctuations over the past few months as well so maybe that has something to do with it. I finally have a fan thats pointed slightly into the room to prevent it from getting too hot. It has reached up to 82 degrees f in the room they are stored and fruited in. As of 2 days ago I moved the super wet jars from that room to a more stable environment to see if it improves anything but at this point I have changed so many things that its hard to tell what, if anything, is helping or hurting. :facepalm3:

My qt jar lids are simple, just a 1/4 inch hole with polyfill stuffed fairly tight.

See the thing is, I have a tub colonizing right now with two 3 month old Spawn jars. It seems to be growing pretty steadily and healthily. Those jars were made with the same batch of spores I received and inoculated the jars with in question in this post.

I understand that with MS its a crapshoot, but I havent had this much consistent bad luck with MS since the day I started doing this about 4 or 5 years ago. Everything looks alright up until I shake.

The MOST i usually shake the jars is 2 times up until 100% colonization then i shake one last time right before throwing em in the tub with CVG. I believe its something bacterial as well. I have been wrong before so its best to ask now, would bacterial inoculate still be able to yield any mushies after colonizing substrate? Or should I just get more spores and hope that fixes the problem?

I allow the pc to vent for around 10 minutes before even placing the weight on the pc and allow it to reach 15 psi then put on a timer for 90 minutes. I have thought maybe me removing them from the pc while still hot could cause the condensation and then that condensation only gets worse from that point. But I dont think that would be the problem because they colonize fine up until the first shake. Perhaps I am shaking them too early or too often. I wish I had a collection of most up to date info for this because I keep reading info thats around 10 years old and going on that. I still soak the seeds for 24 hours and simmer for around 20 minutes then use a hair dryer to assist in drying the seeds. Could they be too wet upon loading and this cause the trouble on down the line?

I am super grateful for anyone taking the time to read all of this jumbled mess :peace: and I sincerely hope I havent asked too many questions to keep up with!


EDIT: Also I have been using a little over 1 cc MS per quart jar. Maybe lessen that?


Edited by EntheoGod (06/14/20 06:34 PM)


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26744728 - 06/14/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Why not do agar if you already know MS is a gamble and you're trying to do grains?


--------------------
Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #26744781 - 06/14/20 07:33 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Why not do agar if you already know MS is a gamble and you're trying to do grains?





I actually will be trying agar agar tomorrow if i can get my hands on some micropore tape. I have to figure out a way to get clean spawn. Im just worried that when i go to inoculate wbs qts with a wedge of myc from agar that ill somehow introduce a contam into the qt jars since all I have is a SAB. I dont have the means to make a flow hood or anything really professional at the moment. (I live in a fuckin trailer) I do what I can with what I can get my hands on at the moment. That being said, I have had plenty of success living where I am. Its just not always successful in summers. I have a hard time maintaining temps in the room everything is stored in.

I hope a SAB will be good enough for me to inoculate a qt jar with a wedge without contamination. :shrug:


I am honestly sick of having this problem so I want to do what I can to prevent it. I have tried everything else I can possibly think of which is why I turned here for advice. :smile: The agar will be a improvement but if im already experiencing trouble with contams or bacteria wouldnt that just carry over to the agar as well?

EDIT: I just figured I would have shit luck with agar since I was having shit luck doing something as basic as WBS MS inoculations.


Edited by EntheoGod (06/14/20 07:34 PM)


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Offlinelateforthafuture
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #26744789 - 06/14/20 07:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I feel your struggles..I've def been there.  If you want any sort of consitency with grains you should probably just start working with agar. If they aren't recovering after a shake it's no good...most likely contaminated...syringes are often...often dirty...it's just the nature of the beast.

I inoculated up some plates with spores from a syringe a few weeks ago...while I was at it I inoculated 4 1/4 pints of oats with the same syringe just to see what happened.

By the time I was able to make the first transfer from germ plates...the jars all went south...green mold...I could also see satelite colonies on the germ plate, but I was able to get some clean mcyelim quickly.

I know agar is an extra step in the process, but in the grand scheme of things it saves you so much time and heartache. IMHO.

Oddly enough, a few weeks before that, I did the same thing but with a different syringe..from a different vendor...and all the germ plates were clean. Made a bunch of transfers anyways..etc, etc.  So while you can get clean syringes... why chance it when you can just be sure of what you're putting in your grain jars.


--------------------
"Not what could have been, or what should have been, but what will be" -Self
:superbanana::mjdance::dancer:


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26744797 - 06/14/20 07:39 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Most people are doing agar work in a SAB. The key is just to transfer until you have something that is clean. If you're doing pasty plates you can sub polyfil for micropore tape if that's easier to come up with.

I understand the struggle. I've been growing nothing but mold all year. I've been moving to agar and getting slowly better. It's all a process.


--------------------
Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

LAGM2024


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Offlinelateforthafuture
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26744809 - 06/14/20 07:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

EntheoGod said:
Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Why not do agar if you already know MS is a gamble and you're trying to do grains?





I actually will be trying agar agar tomorrow if i can get my hands on some micropore tape. I have to figure out a way to get clean spawn. Im just worried that when i go to inoculate wbs qts with a wedge of myc from agar that ill somehow introduce a contam into the qt jars since all I have is a SAB. I dont have the means to make a flow hood or anything really professional at the moment. (I live in a fuckin trailer) I do what I can with what I can get my hands on at the moment. That being said, I have had plenty of success living where I am. Its just not always successful in summers. I have a hard time maintaining temps in the room everything is stored in.

I hope a SAB will be good enough for me to inoculate a qt jar with a wedge without contamination. :shrug:


I am honestly sick of having this problem so I want to do what I can to prevent it. I have tried everything else I can possibly think of which is why I turned here for advice. :smile: The agar will be a improvement but if im already experiencing trouble with contams or bacteria wouldnt that just carry over to the agar as well?

EDIT: I just figured I would have shit luck with agar since I was having shit luck doing something as basic as WBS MS inoculations.




SAB is absolutely fine...it's all about techniqe...just watch some videos and read a bunch of teks. I pour plates, make transfers, g2g, all that ish in my SAB...I used to have a flowhood but I got rid of it when I moved a few years ago... I didn't feel like purchasing or building one when I started back up...so I just built a SAB. You can be just as successful as using a flowhood if you have good technique.

The point of agar is that you can see the contams and transfer away from them. So if you've got a dirty syringe... you can pick the clean healthy mycelium away and transfer it to a clean plate.

Don't beat yourself up about MS>Grain jars...just take it as a learning experience and move on.

Once you get good clean inoculate and healthy spawn...things will take off for you...you can g2g and you'll have more clean spawn then you know what to do with. Things go so fast once you start g2g...you can produce clean spawn 100% colonized in just about a week anytime you need it.


--------------------
"Not what could have been, or what should have been, but what will be" -Self
:superbanana::mjdance::dancer:


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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #26744823 - 06/14/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Most people are doing agar work in a SAB. The key is just to transfer until you have something that is clean. If you're doing pasty plates you can sub polyfil for micropore tape if that's easier to come up with.

I understand the struggle. I've been growing nothing but mold all year. I've been moving to agar and getting slowly better. It's all a process.





I hope to get micropore tape tomorrow and start some plates. Itll be my first ones so I will be sure to document it on here. I plan to noc up a few wbs qt jars with ms and use whats left on some agar plates. Would that be too risky? I just wanna get something going so I can not stress about em while im working on plates.

If theres a contam on one of the plates with clean myc on it, is it as simple as transferring a chunk of the healthy agar wedge to a new plate and going from there? I would be worried that the clean myc could carry contam spores over to the new plate as well. I overthink everything :facepalm3:


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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: lateforthafuture]
    #26744831 - 06/14/20 07:57 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

lateforthafuture said:
Quote:

EntheoGod said:
Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Why not do agar if you already know MS is a gamble and you're trying to do grains?





I actually will be trying agar agar tomorrow if i can get my hands on some micropore tape. I have to figure out a way to get clean spawn. Im just worried that when i go to inoculate wbs qts with a wedge of myc from agar that ill somehow introduce a contam into the qt jars since all I have is a SAB. I dont have the means to make a flow hood or anything really professional at the moment. (I live in a fuckin trailer) I do what I can with what I can get my hands on at the moment. That being said, I have had plenty of success living where I am. Its just not always successful in summers. I have a hard time maintaining temps in the room everything is stored in.

I hope a SAB will be good enough for me to inoculate a qt jar with a wedge without contamination. :shrug:


I am honestly sick of having this problem so I want to do what I can to prevent it. I have tried everything else I can possibly think of which is why I turned here for advice. :smile: The agar will be a improvement but if im already experiencing trouble with contams or bacteria wouldnt that just carry over to the agar as well?

EDIT: I just figured I would have shit luck with agar since I was having shit luck doing something as basic as WBS MS inoculations.




SAB is absolutely fine...it's all about techniqe...just watch some videos and read a bunch of teks. I pour plates, make transfers, g2g, all that ish in my SAB...I used to have a flowhood but I got rid of it when I moved a few years ago... I didn't feel like purchasing or building one when I started back up...so I just built a SAB. You can be just as successful as using a flowhood if you have good technique.

The point of agar is that you can see the contams and transfer away from them. So if you've got a dirty syringe... you can pick the clean healthy mycelium away and transfer it to a clean plate.

Don't beat yourself up about MS>Grain jars...just take it as a learning experience and move on.

Once you get good clean inoculate and healthy spawn...things will take off for you...you can g2g and you'll have more clean spawn then you know what to do with. Things go so fast once you start g2g...you can produce clean spawn 100% colonized in just about a week anytime you need it.





Alright I appreciate that. I will do what I can with the SAB and start some plates tomorrow. I mentioned above that I will noc up a few qt jars and then use whats left of the ms syringe to noc up some plates once they are ready. I just have certain concerns with that as well. Like during the transfer of a healthy wedge to another plate.

Say that the original plate has a contam growing on it as well can you safely cut out the clean myc and transfer that to the clean plate and go from there?


:eek: I cant wait to have 100% clean spawn whenever I need it. I am so envious when i see all these amazing grows and I cant manage to keep a stable enough environment to keep up good work. I have months without a single problem then out of no where I suddenly cant manage to get a single flush.


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26744840 - 06/14/20 08:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #26744846 - 06/14/20 08:05 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18430998

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24330957#24330957

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22721954/vc/1#22721954

Quality agar reading





I have a notepad on my desktop full of quotes and links for agar teks. :smile: Thanks so much for more information.  This is what I plan to use. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23188000 and https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976

I really look forward to this, you folks have got me excited to learn something new. I just hope its successful. :smile:


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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26744875 - 06/14/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

It will be. Don't get discouraged. My first agar attempt was mold city. Then I read more and changed up my technique. Got a good germ plate and have been transferring since then. Getting a little better each time.


--------------------
Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

LAGM2024


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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #26744937 - 06/14/20 08:52 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I’ll try my best to not get de motivated. Hoping it starts out clean lol not likely but I can hope!


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #26744951 - 06/14/20 09:01 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

One thing i noticed you said was your lids were 1/4" hole with polyfil fairly tight. You should make sure theyre balled up nice and tight, you'll still get plenty GE.

Agar is the way. You're at the mercy of luck and the spore supplier if go straight to grain. I've always had cleaner plates using petri dishes but the other ways work great for people


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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: EntheoGod]
    #26744962 - 06/14/20 09:06 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

You could try soaking the wbs a little less or letting them dry a little more.

I’ve only ever used wbs and my advice is to stick to one brand and master it before trying a different kind.

I used the generic stuff from Walmart forever and then tried another brand and the same prep made it way too wet. Experimenting with them made me realize I’d been prepping slightly too wet the whole time too. The way I do it now seemed like it would be way too dry but it works great.


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26744971 - 06/14/20 09:10 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I forgot about the WBS part - I've been using Fooman's WBS prep. It's super fast and simple and works out great for me. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8508523


--------------------
Sour grapes, sweet revenge
Heaven starts right where hell ends


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OfflineEntheoGod
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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26745113 - 06/14/20 10:19 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup: Ive been doing this for 5 years and only using pennington classic wbs from good ole walmart with ms syringes. Havent had this bad of luck in a while. Only seems to happen in the summer. Or when temperatures spike.  My jar lids are super tight usually. Almost tough to even put the syringe inside it.

The plan for now is to use the seeds that I have soaking atm. I will only let them soak for around 14 hours and then simply drain them instead of a simmer because as mentioned above, I have had to switch brands of seeds since walmart was straight up necessary items only where i live thanks to covid 19. Hoping thats all cleared up soon around these parts. The brand i had to get has quite a bit of cracked corn in it so thats why i plan to not simmer or heat the seeds at all as well as most of the TC's around here have mentioned in several posts that heating wbs is just not beneficial other than to allow them to dry quicker thanks to the steam assisting with the drying.

I will be getting micropore tape tomorrow if i can find it, if not, ill substitute polyfill for the micropore tape. I have to buy more seeds anyway so I think a trip to walmart might be in order. :mushroom2:

I will get the agar going and hopefully be able to find some clean myc with the one syringe I have left. I will be noccing up the jars that I make with what seeds I have soaking now and whats left in the syringe I will likely make quite a few agar plates using the method I mentioned above with pastys plate tek. Heres to hoping I manage to noc up some agar without having every plate contam.

I do have a question though, can you simply transfer a clean section of the myc to a new agar plate if the one plate has a contam appear on it? Or would that risk transferring the contam as well? Regardless I will be doing a lot of reading so I can learn as much as possible to help with this method with whatever supplies I can get my hands on.

Any other advice for what I am doing would be great. I thank everyone so far for their input. Ill for sure try to document my agar agar journey on here for whoever wants to see it. I have the patience I just like to have several things going all at once to keep me busy and my mind occupied.  :smile:


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Re: Been having trouble with WBS yet again. Is it my method? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26745730 - 06/15/20 06:27 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
You could try soaking the wbs a little less or letting them dry a little more.

I’ve only ever used wbs and my advice is to stick to one brand and master it before trying a different kind.

I used the generic stuff from Walmart forever and then tried another brand and the same prep made it way too wet. Experimenting with them made me realize I’d been prepping slightly too wet the whole time too. The way I do it now seemed like it would be way too dry but it works great.




to add to this-  if you rinse your WBS, remove all the seeds that float (not just sunflower seed shells)... because they are the ones that are soft and easy to over-hydrate.

I have also found that a 12 hr soak in cold water and a bucket, and then a 24 dry work for me... if you do it this way,  you should have minimal stink and seed-sprouting.


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