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OnlineNorthernerM
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Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings
    #26741082 - 06/13/20 05:23 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

So I've been thinking a lot about the nature of perception and how it is subjective reality, everything enters and leaves through my lens and is by definition subjective. And subjective reality being in itself illusion. These thoughts have been leading me further down the path to trying to separate that self illusion from objective reality. Inside these thoughts I've been coming back to solipsism and have even wondered if I might be experiencing some sort of derealization. I'm not in crisis, just meandering on the topic recently.

Everything seems real, but how do I know? I've been deep in psychedelic states before where everything also appeared completely real but later that reality became a lost perception.

I know these are age old ideas that other people have tangled with before. Trying to help someone recently who has a lot of subjective illusions has made me question myself again.

Thoughts?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Northerner]
    #26741192 - 06/13/20 07:14 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

subjective reality includes perception and unrecognized sensations (fragments of sound, proprioception, and vision) as well as memories and ideas, monologues etc.

but yeah, it is easy to get solipsistic. and to drift into theories of godhood, or simulated worlds.

when we take it all in together - everything happening at once, the idea has little meaning, but if we get tangled up in minutae, such as the distortion in a single sense, or the fullness of a single idea, then the universe is inside the larger sphere of the issue being considered.

If the solipsist turns his awareness to everything happening together at once for a few minutes, the everted universe takes over, and even though the universe we know is inside, the relative insideness of thinking and memory becomes clearly more inner than outer.

I don't know if it helps. this type of deformed perception or inversion of nature is an ability our brains can produce naturally, or with drugs. I have  found much  use for it as a worldview.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26741193 - 06/13/20 07:16 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

maybe I have found a use, imaginative engineering, which I have done for most of my life.

maybe when applied it has more value than loose in the wild.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26741613 - 06/13/20 11:16 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe subjective/objective reality are words we use to try and refer to something and make distinctions. Seems everything has a thing-ness and that may be good enough.  Although getting on good terms with how these “things” interact and affect one another is a good deal.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26741815 - 06/13/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Beyond the obvious distinction between subjective and objective, we must take the things that seem true or real on faith. I suppose this is why, even seeing the danger of belief, we choose to believe certain things.

Another argument might be that with solipism being true, it would seem odd that our mind, being all that is, is unable to know with no doubt that everything we experience is wholly of the mind. Also odd with solipism being true that we seem powerless to affect any and every aspect of our experience.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Rahz]
    #26742017 - 06/13/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Also odd with solipism being true that we seem powerless to affect any and every aspect of our experience.




Don't you think you could though?  Like if you truly believed you could transport yourself to a different location, you could?  I mean there is no objective reality, so why not?  The only problem is actually believing 100%.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Forrester]
    #26742101 - 06/13/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

magic happens,
you don't make it happen by being stupidly insane.
playing belief games is a very bad business, like being a pretend slave.

the trick with magic is just being aware, and noticing and savoring life.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26742226 - 06/13/20 04:56 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Wow you've got a strong opinion on that :smile:


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Forrester]
    #26742254 - 06/13/20 05:11 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

well, no santa clause, and no good fairy, but you could get lucky along the way.

praying for it, however, is not the same as staying awake so you don't miss it.
and deals with the devil are just bad business

I'm such a bad daddy, always have been.


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OnlineNorthernerM
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26742275 - 06/13/20 05:26 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

And therein lies the issue of trying decide what is real and what is not. Watching my friend wrangle with her beliefs about herself, and rather than choosing to blow away all the illusion and face the core issues is adding more layers of illusion on top to try to make the other layers all make sense. Not unlike how scientists will decide on a constant and then make increasingly improbable assertions that are based upon that single constant. Rather than considering that one thing may be wrong everything else must change to prove that one thing right, no matter how insane.

Watching this process has brought self reflection. How many constants have I set for myself because of my subjective reality and how much do I shape my own beliefs around them just to make everything make sense? If the constants that I see seem obvious why is it that so many people don't see them at all? Is it really that I don't believe and reject ever more of the convenient untruths people tell themselves or am I increasingly ignorant? Funny questions to ask oneself.

Increasingly I find people coming to me to make sense of the insanity they see around them. I tell them things and my assertions seem perfectly rational. My outlook is a beacon of hope and light for these people I help. But maybe I'm unwittingly a fool. Just as caught up in my own subjective reality and illusion as they are, it's just that my answers have a more positive outlook than those of the people who seek my advice.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Northerner]
    #26742431 - 06/13/20 06:39 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

interestingly similar as I read along,
though I am not sure if it is not me and my Zelic effect (in which a nondescript enigma, who, apparently out of his desire to fit in and be liked, unwittingly takes on the characteristics of strong personalities around him).

mostly people put up with me too.


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OnlineNorthernerM
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26743392 - 06/14/20 05:29 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Today I went to the beach, felt the sand on my feet and the sun on my face. Made me feel more mortal and present, whole and healthy.

So if we took away all those senses, were left with only the power of thought I guess we would have infinity. Infinity rather than stretching outwards through perception would stretch inwards through other perception. A whole new set of illusions just as convincing, an alternate reality that already exists parallel to what I perceive as real now.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Northerner]
    #26743409 - 06/14/20 05:43 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

A negative infinity (x) a positive infinity.  Each representing opposite directions - inner and outer, balancing each other out - like a long wooden beam placed squarely upon one’s head - coalescing and unified in the center of each embodied being.

Is more or less the visual I got from that...or rather, as best I could approximate what actually showed up in my mind after reading the previous 2 posts above this one - then translated & represented into cruder images to adjust for my low proficiency at writing - as I could not describe the original vision with my current writing skills.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26743508 - 06/14/20 07:13 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

these biologic minds we are, without sensation of any sort would not be biologic.

these biologic minds we are, without sensation of any sort would have no cometary trails to follow, and no contexts to follow through.

these biologic minds we are, without sensation would have no memory.

would a non-biologic mind be any different?


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OnlineNorthernerM
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26743553 - 06/14/20 07:56 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I've had psychedelic experiences that question those statements. Where I believed I died, left my body and forgot about ever being human. I don't know how these illusions stack up with reality. I certainly wasn't dead, so all those perceptions were either internal subjective reality, illusion or were just a glimpse of another reality. Which, I do not know. For some time these questions bothered me, though that was some years ago now.

People with brain diseases can lose the memories and filters that they gained through a lifetime of experience, yet they continue to feel emotion and as they move closer towards death still dream as much as you or I. And the contradiction of genetically identical twins being born with diametrically opposing personalities. Are these minds truly just biological anomalies or is there something greater at play?


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Northerner]
    #26743605 - 06/14/20 08:28 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
People with brain diseases can lose the memories and filters that they gained through a lifetime of experience, yet they continue to feel emotion and as they move closer towards death still dream as much as you or I




Do they lose the memories, or just the hardware/desire to access them?

Maybe minds and memories are not biologic in nature, rather brains and guts are concepts of the mind.


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Northerner]
    #26743738 - 06/14/20 09:44 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
... Are these minds truly just biological anomalies or is there something greater at play?




At this point in life, I am not sure that "just biological" anything could be anything other that totally amazing.

In fact, just biological could be an inadvertent slur against anything that is not imbued with reference to Krishna, Yaweh, or Manitou. All great historical efforts to lift mens' minds beyond digging, killing and fucking - to look at the stars with confidence.

if you have a simple music synthesizer - the sounds that can be produced are incredible, add a few more modules and the combinations are endless. a biological creature will have a mind that is endless in possibilities. Millions of times more complex in potential combinations than a synthesizer, and, while it is living, it learns, plays, procreates, and returns it's essences to the earth.

I would use that observation to drive deeper into the mysteries that are really continuously happening in life, rather than to support a view of supernatural powers being played out - that is more of a cop out. an easy way to say both "yes and no, and I don't understand" at the same time.

Surely we are in a subsequent stage now.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Forrester]
    #26744089 - 06/14/20 01:14 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Also odd with solipism being true that we seem powerless to affect any and every aspect of our experience.




Don't you think you could though?  Like if you truly believed you could transport yourself to a different location, you could?  I mean there is no objective reality, so why not?  The only problem is actually believing 100%.




No I don't think I could. It goes against everything I have experienced.

I suspect there is an objective reality or at least a reality in which I am not the center and you are more than just an entity in my mind.

And why should it hinge on belief? Beliefs are often erroneous and conflict with reality.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Rahz]
    #26744247 - 06/14/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I suspect there is an objective reality or at least a reality in which I am not the center and you are more than just an entity in my mind.

And why should it hinge on belief? Beliefs are often erroneous and conflict with reality.




I guess I should have been more clear, I just meant no objective reality in the physical universe.  I think it is all created by our beliefs.  I agree there is likely an objective reality (existence outside of this dream/what we are).


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Forrester]
    #26744416 - 06/14/20 04:26 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I know  what you are saying but the word "beliefs" throws me.

It may be a very good word for what you mean, though I would use the word "conditioning"


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