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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Forrester]
#26744604 - 06/14/20 06:08 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said: I guess I should have been more clear, I just meant no objective reality in the physical universe. I think it is all created by our beliefs. I agree there is likely an objective reality (existence outside of this dream/what we are).
What leads you to believe the physical universe is created by our beliefs? Why do you think there is an objective reality?
Personally, I don't see any rational basis for the existence of anything, even in theory. It's all just here. I also don't see a rational basis for the idea that it is created by our beliefs.
I do see a situation in which ultimately neither position is provable... philosophically speaking. There are plenty of proofs of objective reality which creates the basis for a distinction between mind and physical reality. Outside this "utility of the environment", there is only belief. The evidence is what creates the definition of objectivity so when it comes to the utility of the evidence I don't see a reason to argue against it, except to say it's can be useful (further utility) to refining our understanding of the environment, to question things that are considered true.
There are still many mysteries, but the unknown doesn't lend itself to one argument or the other.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Forrester
aspiring sociopath


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,351
Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 24 days, 17 hours
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Rahz]
#26744663 - 06/14/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: What leads you to believe the physical universe is created by our beliefs?
Just a belief of mine, with no rational basis. Mostly because when we look outward to the farthest edges of the universe, or inward to the smallest particles, we keep seeing more and more. As we get tools to look further, we see still more. And we will keep seeing more, because we believe there is more to see. We create what we want to see, what we believe we will see.
I agree neither position is provable. If we assume solipsism to be true, nothing is provable is any way, is it? All we really have are beliefs.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Forrester]
#26744706 - 06/14/20 07:01 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Telescopes can only see about 13.8 billion light years worth of light. Beyond that there appears to be nothing. The leading theory is that the universe is 13.8 billion years old and light from further out hasn't reached us yet. Solipsism would have one believe that we can only believe 13.8 billion years worth of light. 14 billion years worth of light is apparently unbelievable.
And as I said, things are provable. For instance it's provable that hitting one's finger with a hammer results in tissue damage and pain. What's not provable is whether we're just imagining all these provable things.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Rahz] 2
#26744788 - 06/14/20 07:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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When I die, i'm taking you all with me
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Forrester
aspiring sociopath


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,351
Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 24 days, 17 hours
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Rahz]
#26745505 - 06/15/20 04:11 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: And as I said, things are provable. For instance it's provable that hitting one's finger with a hammer results in tissue damage and pain. What's not provable is whether we're just imagining all these provable things.
Exactly. So if we can't even prove the finger or the hammer are there, what is there to prove?
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Forrester]
#26745513 - 06/15/20 04:15 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Phenomena as both simultaneously absent - yet - apparent.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Forrester]
#26745560 - 06/15/20 04:42 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said:
Quote:
Rahz said: And as I said, things are provable. For instance it's provable that hitting one's finger with a hammer results in tissue damage and pain. What's not provable is whether we're just imagining all these provable things.
Exactly. So if we can't even prove the finger or the hammer are there, what is there to prove?
are you being paid by the American Union of Solipsists to divide us into disembodied loners?
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Forrester
aspiring sociopath


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,351
Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 24 days, 17 hours
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: redgreenvines]
#26745576 - 06/15/20 04:51 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: are you being paid by the American Union of Solipsists to divide us into disembodied loners?
No but I think I may be talking myself in circles, so I'll shut up
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Forrester]
#26746310 - 06/15/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said:
Quote:
Rahz said: And as I said, things are provable. For instance it's provable that hitting one's finger with a hammer results in tissue damage and pain. What's not provable is whether we're just imagining all these provable things.
Exactly. So if we can't even prove the finger or the hammer are there, what is there to prove?
"it's provable that hitting one's finger with a hammer results in tissue damage and pain"
What's being proven is cause and effect, utility. Hitting one's finger with a hammer will cause pain. This can happen regardless of one's belief or ability to prove hammers and fingers are there.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Rahz]
#26746343 - 06/15/20 11:27 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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the American Union of Solipsists would declare that you personally imagined the finger the hammer the tissue damage and this whole conversation.
they are quite good at riling up nonsolipsists
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: redgreenvines]
#26746359 - 06/15/20 11:33 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: the American Union of Solipsists would declare that you personally imagined the finger the hammer the tissue damage and this whole conversation.
they are quite good at riling up nonsolipsists
Their declarations are pointless unless one can choose to not imagine the tissue damage.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: Rahz]
#26746413 - 06/15/20 11:56 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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you don't need to convince me. my fingers are already aching and I did not smash them at all. merely the suggestion of pain is enough...
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Illusion, solipsism, subjective reality and other ponderings [Re: redgreenvines]
#26746450 - 06/15/20 12:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Amen.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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