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OfflineKoala
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Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST * 2
    #26739819 - 06/12/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Dear people,

After months on this forum, i feel it is time to make my first contribution to this beautiful place. i am still a full on noob so this gives me the opportunity to discover the subject of this post.
I know bottom and side pinning is something that can be overcome with a liner or proper surface conditions. But because the liner is considered as a crutch, i still encounter bottom and side pins while learning how to walk freely.

On my last grow i had a coir/verm shoebox covered in bottom pins. after some research i came to the conclusion that leaving the substrate the way it is, is considered to be the wise thing to do. Which resulted in a lot of fruits like this:

Some weeks later i had the same issue, and decided to try flipping it. I turned the shoebox upside, and put the block of substrate on the lid in a bigger box, with the bottom filled with perlite.



which resulted in a pretty good grow:

And now same story all over again (the liner is a hard crutch to loose). So to see if the good grow after flipping the substrate was just luck. I'll try it again, and document the result for anyone who is interested.

This is the situation: Golden teacher MS cleaned on agar, put on grain, put on coco/verm. Average first flush, leaving a decent amount of pins (on top), but they dont really look 'alive':
i know it looks dry, but believe me i mist 3/4 times a day.

the substrate seems to put more energy in the bottom ones :

So now i am treating it as a cake and put it in another big tote, on it's side to give all the pins more room. (The set up) :





it is on a 12/12 6500K light schedule in a room with also ambient light. the fan of my martha turns on 1x every hour for 90 seconds for FAE (obviously without humidifier because of the open tarp)

I will post updates of the progress daily. Please feel free to chime in and give tips and advice (especially about keeping my surface conditions good enough to prevent side and bottom pins)

Last thing. English is not my first or second language for me, so forgive me for the errors that most definitely slipped through.


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26739844 - 06/12/20 03:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

This is the coolest thread I've seen!  You will be great at this!


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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26739877 - 06/12/20 03:29 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks Atmozfear, for this warm welcome!


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26739886 - 06/12/20 03:32 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:

i mean it.


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Edited by AtmozFear (06/12/20 03:33 PM)

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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26739889 - 06/12/20 03:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

🙏


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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26762584 - 06/21/20 09:33 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

So an unfortunate update, for the ones interested.. The pins started to develop quite interesting, but then I discovered a chunk of trich:( So I have to toss it.
I am now focusing on getting my surface moisture dialed in. And as now confirmed, one subject for a test is not really reliable..



Trich in the last picture.


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OfflineDorfnob
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26762598 - 06/21/20 09:46 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Don't know if its just lighting but the third pics stem looks interesting. your setup is very impressive:thumbup:

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Offlinelefty24
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Dorfnob]
    #26762761 - 06/21/20 11:02 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

My opinion is that you can't have that much wet perlite without having an appropriately drilled SGFC style container, or something with a lot of moving air. Other wise it leads to contams.

ALso resting the substrate directly on the perlite will make it soggy.

Cool test though. You had some WILD pinning going on there.

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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26769084 - 06/21/20 11:14 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you for the response guys.
For some reason a lot of my stems look like that.


And yes Lefty24, you probably are right about the perlite. I didn't thought about it, but now you said it, it reminded me that the first time I tried this, I used a lid to put the substrate on, instead of directly on the perlite ( as you can see in the second picture of the op)
As for the FAE, I've got a fan circulating air through the Martha 3 times every hour, for 2 minutes with an open martha (this also seems a good amount for my shoeboxes) and I flipped the lid of the "test monotub". You think I still would be better off with a sfc?


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OfflineSped105
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26769623 - 06/22/20 12:24 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I've had some success flipping the sub over on the 3rd flush after seeing a bunch of bottom pinning in a couple of shoebox grows and I was able to get another decent flush out of them. I just used the same shoebox and did everything else the same with the sub flipped.

It really does come down to surface conditions, as you know. I just harvested my 2nd flush in a mono and only had a few side pins with none on the first flush.

If you're going to go the perlite way try setting your sub on a piece of tinfoil.

Cool setup. Hopefully you're able to get it dialed in perfect.

You're English is excellent, by the way.

Good luck

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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Sped105]
    #26775781 - 06/23/20 01:55 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Yes I know, surface conditions are still a challenge for me. I chose to put my sub in a bigger tote to give the side pins more room for growth. But now I did the same as you, on a third flush, flipped them in the shoebox itself.

One more question, because I have another interesting situation. I had a shoebox which was contaminated from the start (I could smell it and see it onn the mycelium growth pattern)



Despite the contamination the sub grew one big mushroom.




Then I discovered that the contaminated area on the bottom was overgrown with a lot of pins,




so again I flipped the substrate (on its lid, so it stays off the perlite) . And now it is growing some big fruits (only 2 or 3)


What do you guys think.. Is this good genetics in a contaminated sub, or is, this the way a sub reacts to a contamination, by pushing out a few, but big fruits?

And thanks for the compliments on my set up, I put a lot of time and attention to it:)


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Invisiblegrownright
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26775989 - 06/23/20 06:40 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Those bad boys need some more FAE. Add some holes to that container, its likely the reason it contaminated. Other than that you're doing well :thumbup:


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InvisibleLotKid
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: grownright]
    #26775996 - 06/23/20 06:49 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I've said this in the past b4. If the top of your sub is fucked and everything is coming out the sides and bottom... flip the substrate over. 36fucking5 called me all kinds of stupid for it, even tho my pics kinda proved it was far from stupid.

So in light of that hack's shitty opinion.... i'll still state that flipping the sub is the smart thing to do if all your pins are coming out the sides and bottom. Which any subsequent flushes will fruit from the same side of the sub.

Heavy side and bottom pins usually come from... a top layer being too thick or the surface being too dry.

And i dont consider liners a crutch at all. They make clean up much faster and easier.

:2cents:

Edit: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25601447/fpart/1/vc/1

Edited by LotKid (06/23/20 07:01 AM)

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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: LotKid]
    #26776158 - 06/23/20 08:49 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I want to share my experiment in this thread since it is related to sidepins. I didn't need to flip the sub since I only got sidepins, but what I did I will demonstrate with these pics first.

       

As you can see the lid of this tub has grooves that I can fill with water after this flush to hydrate from the bottom. This tub I can keep on top to retain moisture or I can take it off completely to let the mycelium breathe, like last night when I did this change.
I will try liner next shoebox if it helps with the sidepins. I didn't even use that thick of a top layer. Oh now that I think about it, that is probably the reason for the sidepins that the mycelium reaches the surface and good fruiting conditions faster than on the top even with a thin layer sprinkled on. Hmm, maybe no layer is the way to go...

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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: grownright]
    #26776924 - 06/23/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you Grownright, I was also thinking this, because of the fuzzy stems.. But I was afraid to over do it, because I've got the lid on upside down and a fan blowing regularly. But I will drill some holes:thumbup:


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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: LotKid]
    #26776939 - 06/23/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

LotKid said:
I've said this in the past b4. If the top of your sub is fucked and everything is coming out the sides and bottom... flip the substrate over. 36fucking5 called me all kinds of stupid for it, even tho my pics kinda proved it was far from stupid.

So in light of that hack's shitty opinion.... i'll still state that flipping the sub is the smart thing to do if all your pins are coming out the sides and bottom. Which any subsequent flushes will fruit from the same side of the sub.

Heavy side and bottom pins usually come from... a top layer being too thick or the surface being too dry.

And i dont consider liners a crutch at all. They make clean up much faster and easier.

:2cents:

Edit: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25601447/fpart/1/vc/1




A thick top layer is something I use often yes, because I thought it would help protect against contamination and it would stimulate the upward mycelium growth.. So thank you for pointing this out🙏


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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26776960 - 06/23/20 02:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

More than welcome to share your test Innerwisdom. Reaaly curious to see your progress! For some reason my best growths were with a top layer, so maybe a top layer and a liner is the way to go.

Btw your monotub has no holes right? You probably used bod's unmodified tub tek. But how does your sub gets enough FAE now. With the tote pressing down on the lid?


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26776977 - 06/23/20 02:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Well, I have just had it open now for many hours. I will mist it and let it breathe until morning I think. Fae is a problem with the tote down, so can't have that for too long. I will just have to figure it out with this thing.

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OfflineMickeyLewis
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26777016 - 06/23/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

This is all amazing stuff. I'm really glad I stumbled upon this thread. Great work all of you.

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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26778319 - 06/24/20 02:21 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I presume that you folded the latches of the lid to the inside, so you get at least a little slit between the tote and lid.

Really curious what your growth will do the coming days..


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26778344 - 06/24/20 03:22 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

So I had the whole thing in open air the night and it had an effect on the caps after misting:  

So the caps cracked a bit some of the largest ones. I could set up the tub on top with air gaps underneath, but that would need some modifications because the gaps are not sufficient for air exchange as is. I am just going to fruit this thing in open air and after the flush I will make some mods to get FAE.
In hindsight it might have been smart to just modify for FAE from the start with the tub on top.

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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26778477 - 06/24/20 06:02 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

This is no good. The shrooms are drying too much because the air is very hot and dry. I put the tub back on and misted all round. Do not try this :grin:, well maybe in a humid climate...

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OfflineSockadin
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: InnerWisdom] * 1
    #26778503 - 06/24/20 06:19 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

So can I point out that a liner is not a crutch in any way shape or form. Who ever gave you that opinion probably got bad information from someone else. Some of the best Cultivators I know use liners. Easy to install easy to harvest. Easy to trash the spent sub.

You getting side and bottom pins because that is the area with the best micro climate. When you get really good at dialing in surface conditions you will see more canopy's and less side and bottom pins.

Keep going,! Looking good so far.

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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Sockadin]
    #26778684 - 06/24/20 08:15 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Alright lemme ask this: I have a new shoebox with 1:1 ratio and no top layer, so there are lots of grains on the top. How will this do? should I add top layer or will that result in sidepins like this one too? Same box btw. Didn't do the liner this time either.. :facepalm:
But next box I will do that to compare with these

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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26778774 - 06/24/20 09:07 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

To be clear I don't use liners in shoeboxes cause they fruit and then toss after a couple of flushes and it is easier to harvest that a full mono.

Also if you put it into fruiting a couple of days after going bulk you will produce less side pins.

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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Sockadin]
    #26778809 - 06/24/20 09:31 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Roger that.

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InvisibleR.I.P.Zappa
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: InnerWisdom] * 1
    #26778831 - 06/24/20 09:44 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

After the first flush if I don't just toss it or get a poor WW on the first flush, I just pop the sub out and set it on its side in a 16 or 24 quart tub or in the same tub. Then I put enough water on the bottom so it touches the myc so it can transport it through the sub as needed, put the cover on latched and walk away. After three days I put that latches snapped in with the lid resting on top.
Sometimes ill break up larger subs if they don't fit or need tubs for new spawn. I get 1-3 more small to fair flushes till the green exploits the weakness.
Don't have to get to fancy, put on side, bottom water mist once, leave for a couple days and just mist if it's getting dry to the touch on the top. Bonus mushrooms IMO if your pulling 300+  WW off the first flush of a shoebox.


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: R.I.P.Zappa]
    #26778873 - 06/24/20 10:01 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Neat :seriousthumbsup:

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OfflineC12ShroomMan
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26779140 - 06/24/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks, working on my first shoebox tubs now. First ones only had a few on the side. Now i see a new one has a large pin set on the side and was wondering about flipping it over.

Think i will flip it over and place on top lid and leave it upside down like Innerwisdom has done

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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: C12ShroomMan]
    #26779265 - 06/24/20 12:06 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Check out the SFF shoe box thread. If you make them correctly with slightly drier bulk and then heavily mist the top layer you should have minimal side pins if any without having to mist or do anything at all until harvesting the first flush. The latching sterilite SB are the best for this I think.


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OfflineC12ShroomMan
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26779337 - 06/24/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Roger Clemency said:
Check out the SFF shoe box thread. If you make them correctly with slightly drier bulk and then heavily mist the top layer you should have minimal side pins if any without having to mist or do anything at all until harvesting the first flush. The latching sterilite SB are the best for this I think.




Thanks, I guess i made my tubs a bit too wet and misting because it seemed like it helped them grow. Spotty harvests, not many pinsets.
Next tub i do will be a lot dryer

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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: C12ShroomMan]
    #26807183 - 07/06/20 02:33 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Omg.. so beginner mistake.. I was checking out the website daily for replies, and totally missed the part that there was already a second page added:crazy:

So Rip zappa thanks for your message.. This is actually exactly what I was talking about! Good to see this not such a bad idea at all! :thumbup:

Rochadin also thanks for your contribution! Gives me a better feeling for using a liner


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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26807197 - 07/06/20 02:38 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for the update Innerwisdom!
I hope you are finding some way to get your setting dialed in.  I am still working on mine:)

https://files.shroomery.org/files/20-28/406786540-IMG_20200706_223617.jpg


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26807226 - 07/06/20 02:53 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

It’s weird how side and bottom pins sometimes come in enormous clusters.

I usually take the sub out and put it in a humidity chamber.



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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: A.k.a]
    #26808093 - 07/06/20 11:00 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I just got a new set of bottom pins and less side pins so I flipped the sub on that shoebox. Bottom pins are the worst.

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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26808767 - 07/07/20 10:39 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, especially because you have to sacrifice the pins on top when you flip the substrate, to give bottom pins more room to grow.


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OfflineCrashTest
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26808773 - 07/07/20 10:41 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

This is awesome. Following. Really Interested in your grow setup. It looks temp controlled and would love more info


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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: A.k.a]
    #26808783 - 07/07/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

For now I can only hope, that someday I will achieve grows like yours..


So a bit unrelated, but maybe you can help me..  I am using unmodified tubs. Bod says, that you almost never or maybe once a day have to mist.
Before you have pins or mushrooms the only way of telling you've got fae, is by drying out of the substrate, right? So how do I know the difference between an unmodified tub that is dailed in properly, or one which doesn't get enough FAE?
Because Ive got water droplets on the surface and the lid lays on the tub upside down. It doesn't dries out, and it takes quite long to for pins. How do I know if my fae is up to par?

Thanks in advance!


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26808923 - 07/07/20 11:59 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I’ve only run tubs with snap on lids without rubber seals. Shoeboxes, sweaterboxes and underbeds.

Basically if there’s no air tight seal you’ll be fine as long as you’ve got air moving around the growroom. I have really low humidity so leaving the lid on is usually perfect but some people flip the lid and some people have to flip it and turn it a little so the gaps are bigger.

Pins can take a while, as long as the surface looks ok I wouldn’t worry unless it’s been like three weeks.


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OfflineKoala
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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: A.k.a]
    #26810019 - 07/07/20 10:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you for the reply A.k.a

Exactly the answer I needed, so I know the tubs are doing fine.
This morning I saw the first pins popping up! so I will leave the lids on for now, until the caps reach the lids:) (I also only use boxes with loose fitting lids)


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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: A.k.a]
    #26810043 - 07/07/20 11:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

And what would you say is the biggest factor in your good and even pinset? Genetics, surface conditions, FAE..?


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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26810737 - 07/08/20 10:12 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

IMO and IME; genetics play the biggest role. no matter what youre growing.


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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: LotKid]
    #26811164 - 07/08/20 03:16 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Clear answer.. Yesterday I finally received a new batch of petri dishes, so I'll get to agar work right away..

When aiming for an even pinset (and eventually a full canopy) what would be the way to go? Take a tissue sample from the first pin, the fastest /biggest fruit or from a big cluster?

And does it matter when in the grow cycle of these fruits I take the sample?


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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26811381 - 07/08/20 05:30 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Why not give it all a try and see what performs best for you?

Weed out the weak and focus on the strong.


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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: LotKid]
    #26811715 - 07/08/20 09:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Has anyone ever tried putter a large cake on a rack and light it from top and bottom and see if it can produce on all sides of the cake. It sure sounds like a logical way to get even bigger flushes to me.


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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: LotKid]
    #26811979 - 07/09/20 02:22 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Will do! I thought maybe there was one best way to follow.
I started collecting samples from nice fruits some time ago. And I got a question about that.. I thought when taking a sample from a mushroom you automatically have a clone thus a monoculture. But both from one mushroom and from a cluster I got these agar plates.



But there is clearly some sectoring going on. Should I transfer from these plates till I got no more sectoring or are the samples good to go on grain/lc, and the clone from the growth that gives?


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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Ganja420Boy]
    #26811981 - 07/09/20 02:25 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I thought about it, but I am a bit hasitant because then I leave my whole growchamber receptive for debris, spores, or contam coming from the block.

But maybe when I got a block that is swarming from pins all the way round, Ill give it a try!


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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: Koala]
    #26812522 - 07/09/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I'd take some xfers from the leading sectors.


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Re: Flipping substrate because of bottom and side pins TEST [Re: LotKid]
    #26812571 - 07/09/20 10:35 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, thanks!


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