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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately:
    #26736775 - 06/11/20 12:42 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

We would strongly advocate for and support immediate federal drug legalization/decriminalization as one of the primary aims of the protests for change, and expectations of address at every upcoming election.

Think about this-- it would be a real method of acknowledging a grievous social wrong that has been used as a method of perpetual, institutional race warfare for nearly a century in the US.
It would acknowledge the systemic racism (by acquiescence to it despite clear evidence it is predatory, unjust, and ineffective) by every member of our voting public for decades by withdrawing this race weapon and admitting as a nation/people that it was always aimed primarily at black populations to control and cripple them.

Q: What's the one overwhelmingly used tool/bludgeon/excuse to harass used by every LE agency against black communities and individuals?
A: Antiquated Drug Laws.

Q: What's the one thing that foments an overwhelming portion of violence in heavily black communities, leading to discrimination and racist stereotyping?
A: Gangs/individuals involved in the "illegal drug trade".

Q: What's the one tangible, actionable, and immediately attainable issue that already has strong national support of all races and income groups?
A: Decriminalization and reform of drug "offenses" to reflect current scientific and on-the-ground realities.

From the NAACP website:

Excerpt from page:
Quote:

Incarceration Trends in America

    Between 1980 and 2015, the number of people incarcerated in America increased from roughly 500,000 to over 2.2 million.
    Today, the United States makes up about 5% of the world’s population and has 21% of the world’s prisoners.
    1 in every 37 adults in the United States, or 2.7% of the adult population, is under some form of correctional supervision.

CJ_StopFriskRacial Disparities in Incarceration

    In 2014, African Americans constituted 2.3 million, or 34%, of the total 6.8 million correctional population.
    African Americans are incarcerated at more than 5 times the rate of whites.
    The imprisonment rate for African American women is twice that of white women.
    Nationwide, African American children represent 32% of children who are arrested,
    42% of children who are detained, and 52% of children whose cases are judicially
    waived to criminal court.
    Though African Americans and Hispanics make up approximately 32% of the US
    population, they comprised 56% of all incarcerated people in 2015.
    If African Americans and Hispanics were incarcerated at the same rates as whites,
    prison and jail populations would decline by almost 40%.

Drug Sentencing Disparities

    In the 2015 National Survey on Drug Use and Health, about 17 million whites and 4 million African Americans reported having used an illicit drug within the last month.
    African Americans and whites use drugs at similar rates, but the imprisonment rate of African Americans for drug charges is almost 6 times that of whites.
    African Americans represent 12.5% of illicit drug users, but 29% of those arrested for drug offenses and 33% of those incarcerated in state facilities for drug offenses.


Effects of Incarceration

    A criminal record can reduce the likelihood of a callback or job offer by nearly 50 percent. The negative impact of a criminal record is twice as large for African American applicants.
    Infectious diseases are highly concentrated in corrections facilities: 15% of jail inmates and 22% of prisoners – compared to 5% of the general population – reported ever having tuberculosis, Hepatitis B and C, HIV/AIDS, or other STDs.
    In 2012 alone, the United States spent nearly $81 billion on corrections.
    Spending on prisons and jails has increased at triple the rate of spending on Pre‐K‐12 public education in the last thirty years.



Do you think reforming drug laws would positively improve the BLM platform?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (06/11/20 09:35 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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Offlineqman
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: coAsTal] * 2
    #26736827 - 06/11/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

If you don't think the BLM movement hasn't been infiltrated a long time ago, I have so bridges for sale. BLM is NOT going to demand drug law reform, NOT gonna happen.

The Elite control one of the key resources in the globe, and that resource happens to be illegal drugs. The prohibition of those drugs is what gives it value.

The war on drugs is about giving the drugs value and dominating the drug trade. It also enables The Elite to control the general population and violate civil rights on a daily basis.

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: coAsTal] * 5
    #26736841 - 06/11/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I remember one time I got confronted by a cop and he found drugs on me. He said "I'll just let you go, you're white like me!"

Just kidding. I got arrested too.

Let's talk about the massive murder and assault rates in the black community, including those not even related to drugs. Or how they commit 90% of the hate crimes between blacks and whites, not to mention their hate crimes against everyone else that exceed any that are committed against them. They have more police encounters for a reason.

BLM doesn't want what's good for the black community because if there were no issues, they'd cease to exist and they won't get their money. That's why they ignore statistics, or leave out enough important details to be able to pin the blame on others.

BLM can suck it. They're the kind of group that would label a white guy a supremacist just for accidentally hitting some idiot who walked into the middle of the street, even after the man tried to miss. Like they did just a few days ago.

They aren't the only one to be victims of shitty police. They're just the only ones who get the national coverage for it.

This is all coming from someone who actually grew up in a predominantly black area for half his life by the way.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman]
    #26736847 - 06/11/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

All the more reason for a popular movement surrounding all this publicity to make this a main "tentpole" issue -- if it were part of the discussion by the famous mouthpieces, talk shows, "influencers" then the politicians would have to answer to it.
I agree with you that the reasons for the illegality are ultimately for the benefit of a few up top to get the billions out of it-- but it's hard to deny that eradicating that from their pockets isn't a positive in and of itself.

But again-- it would overwhelmingly benefit black communities, because they are affected in the most numerous and negative ways by the laws.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: coAsTal]
    #26736852 - 06/11/20 01:23 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Eminence, this would of course benefit all of the millions of people unjustly assaulted by these corrupt laws, making it a win/win for all sides.

But I think the social justice advocates would agree that it would benefit black communities at a higher level because they are far more likely to be affected by it (statistically)

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: coAsTal] * 1
    #26736860 - 06/11/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: coAsTal] * 4
    #26736918 - 06/11/20 02:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

coAsTal said:
Eminence, this would of course benefit all of the millions of people unjustly assaulted by these corrupt laws, making it a win/win for all sides.

But I think the social justice advocates would agree that it would benefit black communities at a higher level because they are far more likely to be affected by it (statistically)




But the movement is about racial exclusivity and that's why it hasn't had any impact at all. As soon as you minimize the impact of unjust drugs laws and police brutality on the white population, you just lost the very demographic that can create real change.

The Elite love the racial division on a non-racial issue (corrupt criminal justice system), it makes their ability to maintain power than much easier.

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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman]
    #26736944 - 06/11/20 02:19 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
But the movement is about racial exclusivity and that's why it hasn't had any impact at all. As soon as you minimize the impact of unjust drugs laws and police brutality on the white population, you just lost the very demographic that can create real change.




I agree that the "point" of the movement presently seems to have no actionable message other than to demonize white culture, condemn mistreatment, and tear things apart.
But why does that mean we can't/shouldn't help to focus that inchoate anger towards actionable things that would demonstrably help real people, right away?

I guess that's my position here-- instead of empty anger for anger's sake (that is always toyed with and re-directed by mass media into impotent and unproductive areas), apply the anger towards actual justice and positive action.
It doesn't matter if one agrees with the motive behind the anger-- it's not my place to question black culture. What matters is that it can be used to implement positive social changes that help to eliminate a primary cause of it. That's a good thing for everyone.

Quote:

qman said:
The Elite love the racial division on a non-racial issue (corrupt criminal justice system), it makes their ability to maintain power than much easier.




Yes, and putting a 100,000 watt BLM-type spotlight on the racial disparity of these flagrantly unjust drug laws would be like forcing that elite to drink piss in public if they tried to deny the numbers and facts listed in my OP.
It would not stand up to scrutiny if it had the bullhorn of the present agitated masses and celebrities calling attention to it. I really think they could force change via popular action-- heck, weed's already legal in 23 states (or more depending on how you count it). What better time?

The support is there-- all that's lacking is the volume level of the support behind the cause. I think it would be a masterful move by the people organizing (or just passively/morally supporting) the BLM (and similar) movements to wrench the drug club out of the elite's hands in broad daylight and burn it forever.


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Offlinemeltdowner
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: coAsTal] * 2
    #26738184 - 06/11/20 11:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Systematic racism doesnt exist.  Just another buzzword for the ages.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: meltdowner] * 5
    #26738271 - 06/11/20 11:45 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Only by denying statistical reality can one believe systemic racism doesn't exist.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26738297 - 06/12/20 12:00 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I agree that the "point" of the movement presently seems to have no actionable message other than to demonize white culture, condemn mistreatment, and tear things apart.




Seriously? Have you been to one of their protests? Have you ever listened to a speaker? Their message is actually pretty fucking simple. They demonize the racism AND brutality of police, not white culture. It’s police culture. Where do you even get that it’s about white people? Most of the protesters are white.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods] * 1
    #26738339 - 06/12/20 12:25 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I’m sure most BLM activists agree the drug laws need to change, but their focus is on reforming the structural and cultural problems that exist in police departments and justice systems. There are other organizations that focus on legalization. There are other groups that focus on gang and inner city violence. If they start demanding legalization then that takes attention away from efforts to reform the police. There’s nothing wrong with staying focused on a goal.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods] * 1
    #26738357 - 06/12/20 12:43 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


I remember one time I got confronted by a cop and he found drugs on me. He said "I'll just let you go, you're white like me!"

Just kidding. I got arrested too.




So what? Are you really trying to make the argument that because a white person was arrested for drugs, that there’s no problem with policing and the justice system?

Quote:

Let's talk about the massive murder and assault rates in the black community, including those not even related to drugs. Or how they commit 90% of the hate crimes between blacks and whites, not to mention their hate crimes against everyone else that exceed any that are committed against them.



Why? BLM is concerned with reforming the police, not the black community. If you’d like to form an organization to reform black communities, then go ahead, but there are plenty of them already.

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: meltdowner] * 1
    #26738370 - 06/12/20 12:49 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
Systematic racism doesnt exist.  Just another buzzword for the ages.



That’s two words


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Enlil]
    #26738376 - 06/12/20 12:51 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Only by denying statistical reality can one believe systemic racism doesn't exist.



That's why people who express racist views are named and shamed and fired from their jobs :cookiemonster: If anything that's anti systemic racism :lol:

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MagicMush123] * 3
    #26738385 - 06/12/20 12:56 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Most racists don't openly admit they're racist.  I don't see how anything you said has anything to do with systemic racism.

Systemic racism is why people of color routinely get more time than white people for the same conviction.  It's why a resume with an ethnic sounding name gets rejected while an identical resume with a white sounding name gets an interview.  It's why you get handcuffed and thrown in the back of a police cruiser when you're pulled over in Watts, but you don't even have to exit your vehicle in Brentwood. 

Systemic racism is so pervasive that we can see it in hundreds of ways if we're only willing to look.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MagicMush123]
    #26738406 - 06/12/20 01:09 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

A cops calling someone a nigger isn’t systemic racism, it’s personal racism , and firing that person doesn’t fix the systemic racism.

Systemic racism is when 60 percent of your traffic stops are black people when only 20 percent of the population is black, even when the data demonstrate that white people were more likely to have illegal drugs or weapons when searched during stops.

Systemic racism is when black people use drugs at the same rate as whites, but are convicted of drug crimes four times as often.

Stop and frisk is systemic racism.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods]
    #26738411 - 06/12/20 01:11 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe thats because of black crime rates.

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods]
    #26738425 - 06/12/20 01:17 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

And why do people demand BLM solve every issue within the black community but nobody is demanding NASCAR fix all the white people problems.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #26738426 - 06/12/20 01:17 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Assuming you're correct, that's the very definition of systemic racism, dude.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Enlil]
    #26738442 - 06/12/20 01:28 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Assuming you're correct, that's the very definition of systemic racism, dude.




I guess it's a human nature problem and idk how you could fix it without interfering with people's rights

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #26738528 - 06/12/20 02:20 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Stop targeting black communities for law enforcement. How much of the higher crime rates in black communities is due to actually higher levels of crime and how much is due to increased enforcement. Both of these things are likely to contribute, but it should be obvious that if you spend more time looking for crime you will find more crime.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods] * 1
    #26738563 - 06/12/20 02:50 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe the police go to black neighborhoods more because theres more crime happening there :shrug:

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #26738583 - 06/12/20 03:19 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

But they definitely find more crime in black communities because they spend more time in black communities. If you admit that cops target enforcement in black neighborhoods, then you have to admit a black criminals are more likely to get caught than white criminals. So how much of the higher crime rate in the black community is due excess crime and how much is due to excess enforcement?

It is possible that excess enforcement is entirely responsible for higher crime rates.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (06/12/20 03:22 AM)

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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods]
    #26738591 - 06/12/20 03:31 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Its a circle koods. Cops spend more time in poor communities because poor communities have high rates of crime. So since they're there more often dealing with crime they also witness crimes while being there that needs to stopped as well

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MagicMush123] * 2
    #26738670 - 06/12/20 04:56 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Maybe the police go to black neighborhoods more because theres more crime happening there :shrug:




Yes, but is there 21 times more crime there? The answer we have to give to all racists, is no, there isn't. But cops are 21 times more likely to kill a black person than a white person. Tell me a non racist (or a racist I don't care) explanation for that.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26738798 - 06/12/20 06:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)



In other words the Gods say YES to #blacklivesmatter

And this after Allah flew planes into the World Trade Center and the Christians voted Trump in office.

You could swear God has beef with the United States Government.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Asante]
    #26738842 - 06/12/20 07:04 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

But that's good to be inclusive though.



Hey dude. Are you feeling better?


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Asante]
    #26738912 - 06/12/20 07:42 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:


In other words the Gods say YES to #blacklivesmatter

And this after Allah flew planes into the World Trade Center and the Christians voted Trump in office.

You could swear God has beef with the United States Government.



Does that mean the gods hate muslims too? :lol:

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods] * 1
    #26739088 - 06/12/20 09:10 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
But they definitely find more crime in black communities because they spend more time in black communities. If you admit that cops target enforcement in black neighborhoods, then you have to admit a black criminals are more likely to get caught than white criminals. So how much of the higher crime rate in the black community is due excess crime and how much is due to excess enforcement?

It is possible that excess enforcement is entirely responsible for higher crime rates.




It's not responsible for the crime that has already occurred and they respond too. Law enforcement responses to murders, assaults, rapes and other violent crimes. It's not like driving around looking for people with a break light out.

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26739101 - 06/12/20 09:15 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Maybe the police go to black neighborhoods more because theres more crime happening there :shrug:




Yes, but is there 21 times more crime there? The answer we have to give to all racists, is no, there isn't. But cops are 21 times more likely to kill a black person than a white person. Tell me a non racist (or a racist I don't care) explanation for that.




https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

"Black men are about 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police"

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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman] * 3
    #26739113 - 06/12/20 09:22 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

More "white" people were killed by cops last year while having proportionately less police encounters though.


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Edited by Eminence (06/12/20 09:29 AM)

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Brian Jones] * 2
    #26739118 - 06/12/20 09:24 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Maybe the police go to black neighborhoods more because theres more crime happening there :shrug:




Yes, but is there 21 times more crime there? The answer we have to give to all racists, is no, there isn't. But cops are 21 times more likely to kill a black person than a white person. Tell me a non racist (or a racist I don't care) explanation for that.



I would assume that the vast majority of blacks killed by police are young black males. Young black males make up a disproportionate amount of cop killers, and police know this. If you knew young black males were say 5% of the us population but kill, say 50% of cops, you would probably be on your toes around them as well. There's probably a shit load of reasons why young black males are disproportionately killed by police, and im sure there are plenty of reasonable explanations that are not simply "cops are racists" :shrug:

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MagicMush123] * 3
    #26739122 - 06/12/20 09:26 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman]
    #26739124 - 06/12/20 09:27 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

koods said:
But they definitely find more crime in black communities because they spend more time in black communities. If you admit that cops target enforcement in black neighborhoods, then you have to admit a black criminals are more likely to get caught than white criminals. So how much of the higher crime rate in the black community is due excess crime and how much is due to excess enforcement?

It is possible that excess enforcement is entirely responsible for higher crime rates.




It's not responsible for the crime that has already occurred and they respond too. Law enforcement responses to murders, assaults, rapes and other violent crimes. It's not like driving around looking for people with a break light out.




Quite a bit of it is


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“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MagicMush123] * 2
    #26739126 - 06/12/20 09:29 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:





Holy shit. It’s been two weeks. Protests every day. Thread upon thread. And you still have absolutely no clue what it’s about.

That chart is wrong. The per capita rate of the offenders race alone doesn’t accurately represent the data because the per capita rate of the victims race is also a factor. There may be five times fewer potential black offenders but there are five times MORE potential white victims.

Edited by koods (06/12/20 09:51 AM)

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #26739205 - 06/12/20 10:17 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Maybe the police go to black neighborhoods more because theres more crime happening there :shrug:




Yes, but is there 21 times more crime there? The answer we have to give to all racists, is no, there isn't. But cops are 21 times more likely to kill a black person than a white person. Tell me a non racist (or a racist I don't care) explanation for that.



I would assume that the vast majority of blacks killed by police are young black males. Young black males make up a disproportionate amount of cop killers, and police know this. If you knew young black males were say 5% of the us population but kill, say 50% of cops, you would probably be on your toes around them as well. There's probably a shit load of reasons why young black males are disproportionately killed by police, and im sure there are plenty of reasonable explanations that are not simply "cops are racists" :shrug:




I just don’t understand why black on black crime is at all relevant. Your side brings it up all the time. What does that have to do with cops killing citizens of either race? Why isn’t the fact that a huge majority of white people are killed by other white people ever discussed? In fact the the percentages aren’t very different. 89% of black victims are killed by black offenders. 81% of white victims are killed by white offenders. Where’s your outrage over white on white crime?

2014 Race of cop killers. 42 white. 13 black. That’s pretty fucking proportional considering the disproportionate number of encounters black people have with cops. But I get what you’re saying. Cops perceive black people to be more dangerous. But, that is literally an example of systemic racism. You just think it’s justifed. An individual black person should not be judged based on the perceived danger that black people as whole represent.

As for “cops are racist” some are. But even the ones who aren’t still work inside the racist system that I have just described.

Why do black people get unproportionally killed?

Unproportional enforcement of laws
Unproportional perception of danger blacks present
Uneven perception of second amendment rights based on race

There’s three, all examples of systemic racism


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“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence] * 2
    #26739211 - 06/12/20 10:19 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Eminence said:
More "white" people were killed by cops last year while having proportionately less police encounters though.




We need to talk about white on white crime

How many white people killed by cops before you think there’s a problem?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (06/12/20 10:20 AM)

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods] * 1
    #26739343 - 06/12/20 11:14 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Maybe the police go to black neighborhoods more because theres more crime happening there :shrug:




Yes, but is there 21 times more crime there? The answer we have to give to all racists, is no, there isn't. But cops are 21 times more likely to kill a black person than a white person. Tell me a non racist (or a racist I don't care) explanation for that.



I would assume that the vast majority of blacks killed by police are young black males. Young black males make up a disproportionate amount of cop killers, and police know this. If you knew young black males were say 5% of the us population but kill, say 50% of cops, you would probably be on your toes around them as well. There's probably a shit load of reasons why young black males are disproportionately killed by police, and im sure there are plenty of reasonable explanations that are not simply "cops are racists" :shrug:




I just don’t understand why black on black crime is at all relevant. Your side brings it up all the time. What does that have to do with cops killing citizens of either race? Why isn’t the fact that a huge majority of white people are killed by other white people ever discussed? In fact the the percentages aren’t very different. 89% of black victims are killed by black offenders. 81% of white victims are killed by white offenders. Where’s your outrage over white on white crime?

2014 Race of cop killers. 42 white. 13 black. That’s pretty fucking proportional considering the disproportionate number of encounters black people have with cops. But I get what you’re saying. Cops perceive black people to be more dangerous. But, that is literally an example of systemic racism. You just think it’s justifed. An individual black person should not be judged based on the perceived danger that black people as whole represent.

As for “cops are racist” some are. But even the ones who aren’t still work inside the racist system that I have just described.

Why do black people get unproportionally killed?

Unproportional enforcement of laws
Unproportional perception of danger blacks present
Uneven perception of second amendment rights based on race

There’s three, all examples of systemic racism




We're never going to change the perception that black males are more dangerous than the rest of the general population. Law enforcement and the vast majority of the population has that perception. Now you can call that systemic racism and some can call it statistical commonsense, but that's the reality of how humans function.

Now people can lie to themselves and suggest they don't share that fear and condemn others that do, but that doesn't change anything.

Males get treated differently than females, there's no reeducating people out of that perception. So instead of just suggesting it's entirely unjustified, maybe it's time to accept why that perception is so prevalent in the first place.

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman] * 1
    #26739368 - 06/12/20 11:20 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Part of being any kind of professional is not doing things the wrong way.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods] * 3
    #26739381 - 06/12/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

People really only bring up black on black crime because there's this narrative that "white" people and cops are the biggest threat to black people, but even their intraracial stats top everyone else's intraracial crime stats, just like their interracial crime stats. No demographic in the country commits more hate crimes against black people as they do against others. This goes for rape as well, not just violence. Rape is not something you can blame systemic racism and socioeconomic status on, like some do in the context of drug related violence.

And I always thought it was a problem when cops kill anyone who could've been dealt with, without doing so. Doesn't matter the race. But BLM started after a black man who robbed a convenience store, beat the man at the cash register, and then tried to take a cop's gun while beating him too, was shot.

I think it's just fine that people protest for Floyd, I have a problem with the narrative that this kind of thing is only a problem with black people, but when you have the media, sites like YouTube and Facebook where many people get their news, that censor speech that talks about statistics that don't favor groups like BLM, it's going to become more common for people to believe the only things they're able to see are the only things that reflect reality.

But to be honest, it should have been the pregnant woman who was beaten, robbed, and had a gun pressed into her stomach by Floyd a few years back that should've been the one to kill him.


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Edited by Eminence (06/12/20 11:31 AM)

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence] * 3
    #26739414 - 06/12/20 11:40 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

think it's just fine that people protest for Floyd, I have a problem with the narrative that this kind of thing is only a problem with black people,




This narrative doesn’t exist. This is made up by you or people that influence your thinking. You just want to insist the problem with black people being killed by cops are the black people, even as you recognize that it happens to white people too.

Who do you think should be the ones to kill the cops who beat women and shoot protesters?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods]
    #26739444 - 06/12/20 11:52 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

No demographic in the country commits more hate crimes against black people as they do against others



Let’s set you straight

2018

Anti black hate crimes 1700
Anti white hate crimes 750

There are five times as many whites in the country, so black people are 11 times more likely to be a victim of hate crime based on race.


Quote:

YouTube and Facebook where many people get their news, that censor speech that talks about statistics that don't favor groups like BLM, i



What statistics are you referring to?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (06/12/20 11:57 AM)

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods] * 4
    #26739492 - 06/12/20 12:18 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Black on white violence averages to between 9 and 10 times the inverse. My fault I used the term "hate crime" because a white person attacking a black person is more likely to be labelled a hate crime than the other way around, even if there was no evidence it was related to race. Was it even labeled a hate crime when that "black israelite" guy was talking about how blacks are god's chosen people and how much he hated whites before beating elderly white people in a nursing home a few weeks ago in Detroit? Pretty sure he was only charged with battery. And the first stat I mentioned is just one example of something that gets deleted from YouTube or Facebook. "Black crime statistics" alone is a term that triggers the algorithm to delete comments, depending on what words precede or follow. You wouldn't know this unless you've actually tried it though, but you ever tried to edit a comment you already posted and saw the "error" message come up, then went back and saw that it's not there anymore? I've tested this by simply changing "black" to "white" and it stays up.

Also not related to this specific topic, but I found out the other day even the word "goy" gets comments deleted on YouTube :lol:


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence] * 1
    #26739502 - 06/12/20 12:24 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Why are black crime statistics relevant to the illegal use of force against citizens.

The relevant statistics would be the criminal and disciplinary records of police officers


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (06/12/20 01:01 PM)

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods] * 1
    #26739516 - 06/12/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Because racists believe that black people deserve a good beating now and then.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods] * 3
    #26739525 - 06/12/20 12:39 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It's not, but that question isn't relevant to my point either. You must be assuming, or pretending, that every conversation related to cops only stays within the boundaries of cops and doesn't drift off into talks about white people in general. I don't just bring up those stats for no reason. I'd side with an innocent black guy over a shitty cop who happens to be white, and I have, but when you have movements that are based off a lie to boil it down to race, of course people are going to mention crime stats based on race.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods]
    #26739583 - 06/12/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

think it's just fine that people protest for Floyd, I have a problem with the narrative that this kind of thing is only a problem with black people,




This narrative doesn’t exist. This is made up by you or people that influence your thinking. You just want to insist the problem with black people being killed by cops are the black people, even as you recognize that it happens to white people too.

Who do you think should be the ones to kill the cops who beat women and shoot protesters?




If the narrative doesn't exist, why does BLM even exist?  Shouldn't it be called something entirely different?  Why did Kaepernick only discuss the issue of non-whites and police abuse?  He made his protest exclusive to the issue of non-whites.

And don't even start to pretend that 'All Lives Matter' isn't met with outrage when presented before many of these protesters and organizations.

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman]
    #26739588 - 06/12/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

About 5 years ago I said they should have named the movement "Black Lives Matter Too" so there isn't all this confusion.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #26739607 - 06/12/20 01:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

There is no confusion. It isnt "black lives matter more" or "only black lives matter"
or anything else. It is simply a statement that they matter. Not sure why people get so upset about it.

Black on black crime or white on white crime is an annoying diversion from the real issue
which is police on citizen crime, black or otherwise.

Yes whites kill other whites and blacks kill other blacks. The police should be held
to a higher standard than the "criminals" they are supposed to be policing.

Cops cannot kill with impunity. Cops are not judge, jury, and executioner.
I know you right wing members dont think of black people as american citizens, but they are.

Bringing up black on black crime as a justification for cops killing with impunity
shows that you are a tyranny loving boot licker. People kill people, but cops should
be held to a higher standard than your average person. If you want that badge
then you need to at least behave like you deserve the respect it is supposed to grant.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26739624 - 06/12/20 01:28 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You and I aren't confused, but all the people who ask "what about white lives?" are.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: natedawgnow] * 1
    #26739884 - 06/12/20 03:31 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
There is no confusion. It isnt "black lives matter more" or "only black lives matter"
or anything else. It is simply a statement that they matter. Not sure why people get so upset about it.

Black on black crime or white on white crime is an annoying diversion from the real issue
which is police on citizen crime, black or otherwise.

Yes whites kill other whites and blacks kill other blacks. The police should be held
to a higher standard than the "criminals" they are supposed to be policing.

Cops cannot kill with impunity. Cops are not judge, jury, and executioner.

I know you right wing members dont think of black people as american citizens, but they are.

Bringing up black on black crime as a justification for cops killing with impunity
shows that you are a tyranny loving boot licker. People kill people, but cops should
be held to a higher standard than your average person. If you want that badge
then you need to at least behave like you deserve the respect it is supposed to grant.





^^This.

This is why the thread was started-- to advocate attacking the completely unjust "laws" used most often by police to victimize people-- and by every published metric, FAR MORE black people than white per capita are victimized by these laws. It's in the OP stats and available in hundreds of other published studies.

The laws are wrong and draconian.
They are used constantly against otherwise peaceful and innocent people.
They are used as the reason to surveil, sequester, demonize, and discriminate against black communities.
SO,
Take away the police excuse to attack all communities with these laws, and ipso facto black communities would immediately benefit the most, because they are affected the most by the use of the laws to imprison and assault their liberties.

All the white vs black nonsense completely becomes editorializing and opinion.

Attack the LAWS, and suddenly you're helping the PEOPLE.
Police will hopefully be held to a much higher standard, and punished if they violate others-- we all want that. But one way to immediately suspend a huge part of their predatory behavior is to eliminate the drug excuse. Win/Win.

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26739892 - 06/12/20 03:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
About 5 years ago I said they should have named the movement "Black Lives Matter Too" so there isn't all this confusion.




https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/06/12/putting-the-nfls-250-million-commitment-in-context/

"spending $250 million over the next 10 years to combat systemic racism and fight injustices against blacks"

Again, the narrative is police brutality doesn't affect whites.  This is why the movement continues to fail at every level, excluding whites destroys the ability to make real change. Make no mistake about it, it's deliberate.

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26739933 - 06/12/20 03:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You and I aren't confused, but all the people who ask "what about white lives?" are.



No, they aren't.  They're just using rhetoric to make a point that white people are the victim of some new movement against them.  There is a sizeable contingent of white folk who feel entitled to the privilege they enjoy, and they see a leveling of the playing field as taking from them that which they deserve.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26740013 - 06/12/20 04:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Lol I'm about ready to start bragging about my "white privilege" just to piss people off who tell me I have it. I'm pretty much done fighting against that bullshit at this point. But your assessment doesn't really explain any of the black people and others who disagree with BLM either. I guess they must just be coconuts and uncle Toms though.


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Edited by Eminence (06/12/20 04:50 PM)

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence]
    #26740062 - 06/12/20 04:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Why would you conclude that? There are rational people for and against BLM. I was talking about a specific set of people.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26740159 - 06/12/20 05:38 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

For those who haven't seen it, or haven't seen it enough:





Apparently it was a breeze gathering all that footage of shocking power abuse by cops.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman] * 1
    #26741148 - 06/13/20 06:32 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Maybe the police go to black neighborhoods more because theres more crime happening there :shrug:




Yes, but is there 21 times more crime there? The answer we have to give to all racists, is no, there isn't. But cops are 21 times more likely to kill a black person than a white person. Tell me a non racist (or a racist I don't care) explanation for that.




https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

"Black men are about 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police"




Yeah, I don't know where I found that number. Since I read your post I searched and found different figures. Some back yours exactly and some don't, but either way yours is in the right ballpark.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26742611 - 06/13/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Listen to this woke ass brotha



He's right except for the "white" part


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OfflineJizzMasterZero
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26756994 - 06/19/20 10:38 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Because racists believe that black people deserve a good beating now and then.



This has nothing to do with race. If you choose to fight the cops and/or run, you’re likely to have a bad outcome regardless of race. Most sensible people realize this and don’t start fights with police over dumb shit. I’m a white male. If I were to get pulled over for whatever reason and I took a swing at the cop and ran off, I would EXPECT to get fucking shot, so I don’t do it. It’s not that hard to figure out.  Parents need to talk to their kids about how to handle themselves when they are confronted by police. There will only be more police shootings because a lot of kids have no respect for teachers in school, and that’s OK with the schools. During my sons high school chemistry class, the kids pushed all of the desks together and ran, dove, and slid across the desks. It’s shit like that every day in his school. You can count on some of these kids becoming “victims” of “racist” cops in the future because they lack respect for anyone other than themselves, and the media continually reinforces their bad behavior. If you want to smoke weed, fine, do it at home. Don’t smoke weed out in public and start fights when somebody calls the police on you and blame it on racism.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: JizzMasterZero] * 2
    #26757005 - 06/19/20 10:41 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

were to get pulled over for whatever reason and I took a swing at the cop and ran off, I would EXPECT to get fucking shot, so I don’t do it. It




Cops aren’t supposed to kill guilty people either .


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: JizzMasterZero]
    #26757473 - 06/19/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

My counter argument:



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Edited by koods (06/19/20 01:30 PM)

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: JizzMasterZero] * 2
    #26759012 - 06/20/20 02:24 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

No. It's racist because the black people who don't do those things get killed by cops too. They get killed for having a cell phone in thier hand. They get killed for reaching toward their glove compartment after aked for license, registartion and proof of insurance. Those cops did not get charged because it was ruled that "they had a reasonable fear for their life".

The majority of the public backs the protesters. That's because they are less racist than the people who back the police.

I don't think most cops are bad. But until they stop covering for the ones who are, they deserve to get lumped together. Charging the officers who stood by and did nothing in these last two cases is a good first step in changing things.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #26759467 - 06/20/20 09:33 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
No. It's racist because the black people who don't do those things get killed by cops too. They get killed for having a cell phone in thier hand. They get killed for reaching toward their glove compartment after aked for license, registartion and proof of insurance. Those cops did not get charged because it was ruled that "they had a reasonable fear for their life".

The majority of the public backs the protesters. That's because they are less racist than the people who back the police.

I don't think most cops are bad. But until they stop covering for the ones who are, they deserve to get lumped together. Charging the officers who stood by and did nothing in these last two cases is a good first step in changing things.




I think the people that back the police are just more oblivious to the realities on the ground floor. They're immune to the unjust war on drugs, the over policing of communities and the corrupt criminal justice system. Does that lack of knowledge make them more racist?  No, it makes them ignorant of the world they live in.

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman] * 4
    #26759529 - 06/20/20 10:09 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Most racism is founded in ignorance. Only a small portion of racism is actually hatred.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26759554 - 06/20/20 10:20 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

So how exactly do you know who is racist based on what they do, just look at what race they are?


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence]
    #26759622 - 06/20/20 10:57 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The race of a person is irrelevant...


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence]
    #26759625 - 06/20/20 10:58 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

lol, wut?  I don't see how that follows from the post you replied to, but I skipped the majority of this thread, so I'm probably just missing the context.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26759656 - 06/20/20 11:14 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

That was more for Brian I guess, (who seems to be pretty unaware of some stats that are relevant to his comment, by the way). Was just asking because racism is brought up very often when it comes to police, yet, I hardly ever see any actual evidence of racism. The only requirement for that accusation to stick is if the cop's a "white" guy. I just don't see how people can have such confidence that racism is so often the factor when there are way too many cops that are just shitty in general, as it is.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence] * 3
    #26759662 - 06/20/20 11:18 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The numbers make it clear. Black people are more likely to be pulled over. Once pulled over, more likely to be searched. More likely to be shot.  More likely to be arrested. Once arrested,  more likely to be charged. More likely to get time. Will get more time on average.

Racism or statistical anomaly? To the rational observer, the choice is clear.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26759694 - 06/20/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

More likely to commit certain crimes and have priors too, perhaps? Also, one time I got pulled over by a cop who lied about me almost driving into his car as I pulled out of a gas station, because I was in a mostly black area late at night and he noticed my license plate, and told me that "white people usually only come around here this time of night when they're buying drugs." So it seems racial profiling isn't just a one way thing after all :shrug:


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence] * 1
    #26759703 - 06/20/20 11:43 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

More likely to get caught for certain crimes, maybe.  Primarily based on more likely to be investigated and searched.

Of course racial profiling isn't a one-way thing.  As a teenager, I was pulled over and searched at least once a week.  Long-haired white dude in the ghetto...must be scoring drugs.

This comes down to two wildly different ways of looking at the world.  We know that blacks are convicted at a higher rate than whites of many kinds of crimes.  We know that blacks are, on the average, of a lower socioeconomic class.  These are bare facts.  How we view these facts depends on how we apply our racial views:

1.  We can say that these facts show that blacks are inherently prone to conduct that leads to these outcomes, or

2.  We can take the last 50 years of genetic science and apply it to realize that there is no biological reason that blacks should have different outcomes.  Given that reality, there must be systemic reasons that blacks have suffered these negative outcomes more frequently.  That is how we know there is systemic racism.  It isn't about blaming one person or group of persons.  It's about recognizing that the system, created and maintained by people of all races, is flawed in that a particular group of people are suffering inequities.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence]
    #26760323 - 06/20/20 05:29 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Eminence said:
That was more for Brian I guess, (who seems to be pretty unaware of some stats that are relevant to his comment, by the way). Was just asking because racism is brought up very often when it comes to police, yet, I hardly ever see any actual evidence of racism. The only requirement for that accusation to stick is if the cop's a "white" guy. I just don't see how people can have such confidence that racism is so often the factor when there are way too many cops that are just shitty in general, as it is.




Unaware of stats you think? You will have to do better than that. In 10 years of sociology concentrating on social stratification, I had little but exposure to these stats.

The question is why are you and I reaching opposite conclusions?

You said "racism is brought up very often when it comes to police, yet, I hardly ever see any actual evidence of racism." We just answered the question. We are all filtering information through our preconceived notions. You are not seeing what I and many others always saw, and what most people now see. There is no amount of information or arguments that is going to change that.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26760406 - 06/20/20 06:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The stats showing that more white people are killed by police despite having a lower proportionate number of encounters. Please don't say "but there are more white people in the country." But what would you think if you watched a cop abusing someone of another race, then did it again to someone of his same race? How do you tell between racist cop and overall shitty untrained cop?

Also, I guarantee plenty of cops would be more confident in shooting a white man because police brutality against them just kinda escapes the news cycle, unlike with black people, where a cop can be fired for even doing what his training tells him to do. Reminds me of that video during the Floyd protests/riots of the black woman who was taunting the white cop in her car like she was about to drive over him, then got out and smacked him in the face a few times and he sat there just taking it because he was obviously nervous to have to arrest a black woman for hitting him :shrug: So his black cop partner was the one that came up behind her and knocked her out instead.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Enlil]
    #26760515 - 06/20/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
More likely to get caught for certain crimes, maybe.  Primarily based on more likely to be investigated and searched.

Of course racial profiling isn't a one-way thing.  As a teenager, I was pulled over and searched at least once a week.  Long-haired white dude in the ghetto...must be scoring drugs.

This comes down to two wildly different ways of looking at the world.  We know that blacks are convicted at a higher rate than whites of many kinds of crimes.  We know that blacks are, on the average, of a lower socioeconomic class.  These are bare facts.  How we view these facts depends on how we apply our racial views:

1.  We can say that these facts show that blacks are inherently prone to conduct that leads to these outcomes, or

2.  We can take the last 50 years of genetic science and apply it to realize that there is no biological reason that blacks should have different outcomes.  Given that reality, there must be systemic reasons that blacks have suffered these negative outcomes more frequently.  That is how we know there is systemic racism.  It isn't about blaming one person or group of persons.  It's about recognizing that the system, created and maintained by people of all races, is flawed in that a particular group of people are suffering inequities.





Even if you completely rule out biological factors, how can you rule out cultural factors and automatically conclude systemic racism is the main factor?

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman]
    #26760584 - 06/20/20 08:19 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Culture is a part of the system. A culture isn't formed in a vacuum.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence]
    #26760608 - 06/20/20 08:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You're hung up on the race of the cop. It doesn't matter what race the cop is. They all target black men more than white men.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman]
    #26776115 - 06/23/20 08:25 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
it should be obvious that if you spend more time looking for crime you will find more crime.




"Slow down the testing, COVID numbers are too high!" -Donald Trump, 2020.

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MrBlueYoMind] * 1
    #26776327 - 06/23/20 09:57 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I had to call the police the other day, some kids have been steeling shit of peoples porches. I caught them twice, told them to fuck of with that shit, and that if they stopped we'd be cool. So I caught them again about an hour later. In the middle of creating the report the officer went on a rant about how black people in this country think they get a free pass. I hadn't told him what color the kids were... Suffice it so say, I was pretty fucking deflated over that.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: christopera]
    #26776379 - 06/23/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah that sucks I don't have the answers to the problems I just refuse to overlook an opportunity to compare koods to trump.

People are all like "Stop treating innocent people like they're criminals!"  and the police response is all "You don't want us to arrest criminals?  Okay no more responding to calls"  tone deaf as fuck.

Yeah shits ugly.  What would you do if you were paid to arrest murderers, but every time a murder happens you go to solve it and the people that know what happened just spit on you and don't help you and then accuse you of not doing anything.  I'd imagine it's pretty frustrating. 

On the other hand, what would you do if people in your neighborhood were getting murdered at the same time lawmakers made it illegal for you to have a gun to protect yourself, and the murderers kill people who help the police solve the murders?  Doubt you would co-operate either, especially if police don't prevent a murder and only attempted to solve it after the fact.  Not to mention the police that are on drug dealer payrolls, cause that is a real thing as well.

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MrBlueYoMind] * 3
    #26776391 - 06/23/20 10:18 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

The comparison only works if you think criminals are turning themselves in to cops to get arrested and the cops say sorry we’re out of arresting kits.

If you don’t patrol white neighborhoods like you do black ones, you’re not going to uncover white crimes like you do black ones. In the 20+ years I’ve lived on my street I’ve seen a cop car maybe three times. I have weed growing on my deck. That is white privelege.

I’m not really sure how you think this comparison works out well for whatever argument you’re trying to make.


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NotSheekle said
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Edited by koods (06/23/20 10:24 AM)

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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods] * 2
    #26776781 - 06/23/20 01:23 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

There are police camera's on the light poles in my neighborhood but not the wealthy neighborhoods- they just have camera's on their doorbells. 

There's also stabbings and murders that occur in my neighborhood but not the wealthy neighborhoods.  Like, if I tell people what street I live on they consider it the bad part of town.  I personally think there are worse areas of town, but I have found random needles littered in the same grass children play in and have to pick up litter/garbage every so often so the neighborhood doesn't look so trashed and people have been shot within view of my bedroom window.  It sucks cause there is a little wooded area with a small creek that I used to play around when I was a little kid but it's covered in garbage now.  I've overheard some disturbing conversations while walking to the corner store, including a guy talking to his friend all excited and he said "I was next to his car, put the gun in his face, man joe he was scared as fuck joe"  It's not all bullet-proof glass and shit like some places in Chicago though. 

The shop clerk was murdered in a robbery like 25 years ago.  People leave candles in memorial every year on the anniversary.

How many stabbings and murders occur on your street? 

Not sure how your comparison works well with your argument if no violent crime occurs on your street. 

You already know how my analogy makes sense.  Decreasing focus on high-crime areas might make the number of arrests go down so it looks like there is less crime, just like not testing people for covid makes it look like there are less covid cases than there are.  That doesn't mean there is less crime or covid though.  The notion that criminals would need to volunteer to be arrested to make it a valid analogy is nonsense based on the definition of crime.  Do you think someone who is raped but doesn't report it means the rape didn't occur? 

"If you look for crime you're going to find it" suggests you ought to stop looking for crime for it to go away.  I'm not sure that is the case.

You literally are making an argument for an increased police presence in your own neighborhood over a weed plant in vegetative phase, which is a drastic difference from decreasing police presence in high-crime areas in order to reduce the number of criminals.  Definitely not the same argument.

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MrBlueYoMind] * 1
    #26776990 - 06/23/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Police in Baltimore overwhelmingly target black drivers for stops and searches even though the data shows that white drivers are more likely to be in possession of drugs or illegal weapons.

Just do a thought experiment. Let’s say you and your friend both drive around with drugs in your car all the time. Your friend gets pulled over three times as often as you do. Who is the one more likely to be arrested for drug possession?


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods] * 1
    #26777174 - 06/23/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Police in Baltimore overwhelmingly target black drivers for stops and searches even though the data shows that white drivers are more likely to be in possession of drugs or illegal weapons.

Just do a thought experiment. Let’s say you and your friend both drive around with drugs in your car all the time. Your friend gets pulled over three times as often as you do. Who is the one more likely to be arrested for drug possession?




So if you're a drug dealer you get a white to carry the merch which is tailed by a black guy as a decoy.

Brilliant.


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Patlal]
    #26777307 - 06/23/20 04:55 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods]
    #26777500 - 06/23/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Police in Baltimore overwhelmingly target black drivers for stops and searches even though the data shows that white drivers are more likely to be in possession of drugs or illegal weapons.

Just do a thought experiment. Let’s say you and your friend both drive around with drugs in your car all the time. Your friend gets pulled over three times as often as you do. Who is the one more likely to be arrested for drug possession?




Cops have quotas and pulling over blacks is more likely to find warrants and other potential violations. It's a numbers game at work.

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman]
    #26777548 - 06/23/20 06:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Cops can't have quotas


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #26777564 - 06/23/20 06:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

They have productivity goals. The MPs I knew had "mission statements".


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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods]
    #26777800 - 06/23/20 08:48 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The comparison only works if you think criminals are turning themselves in to cops to get arrested and the cops say sorry we’re out of arresting kits.

If you don’t patrol white neighborhoods like you do black ones, you’re not going to uncover white crimes like you do black ones. In the 20+ years I’ve lived on my street I’ve seen a cop car maybe three times. I have weed growing on my deck. That is white privelege.

I’m not really sure how you think this comparison works out well for whatever argument you’re trying to make.



Do you think white and black neighborhoods have the same types and frequency of crimes yet police only choose to pick on black one because cops are just plain racists?

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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #26778480 - 06/24/20 06:03 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

koods said:
The comparison only works if you think criminals are turning themselves in to cops to get arrested and the cops say sorry we’re out of arresting kits.

If you don’t patrol white neighborhoods like you do black ones, you’re not going to uncover white crimes like you do black ones. In the 20+ years I’ve lived on my street I’ve seen a cop car maybe three times. I have weed growing on my deck. That is white privelege.

I’m not really sure how you think this comparison works out well for whatever argument you’re trying to make.



Do you think white and black neighborhoods have the same types and frequency of crimes yet police only choose to pick on black one because cops are just plain racists?




You pretended to ask one question, but you asked two.

Do you think white and black neighborhoods have the same type and frequency of crime? No. They are about identical for drug possession though.

Do police only choose to pick on black neighborhoods because cops are just plain racists? It's partially because of differential crime stats and partially because cops are just plain racists.

Conservatives are always looking for simple solutions but the real world is not cooperating.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Posts: 5,117
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26778815 - 06/24/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

koods said:
The comparison only works if you think criminals are turning themselves in to cops to get arrested and the cops say sorry we’re out of arresting kits.

If you don’t patrol white neighborhoods like you do black ones, you’re not going to uncover white crimes like you do black ones. In the 20+ years I’ve lived on my street I’ve seen a cop car maybe three times. I have weed growing on my deck. That is white privelege.

I’m not really sure how you think this comparison works out well for whatever argument you’re trying to make.



Do you think white and black neighborhoods have the same types and frequency of crimes yet police only choose to pick on black one because cops are just plain racists?




You pretended to ask one question, but you asked two.

Do you think white and black neighborhoods have the same type and frequency of crime? No. They are about identical for drug possession though.

Do police only choose to pick on black neighborhoods because cops are just plain racists? It's partially because of differential crime stats and partially because cops are just plain racists.

Conservatives are always looking for simple solutions but the real world is not cooperating.



I think cops target poor people/poor communities more because they're low hanging fruit.
I think black neighborhoods are generally considered the inner city or "hoods" and white neighborhoods are generally considered the suburbs. If so, cops can easily drive into the streets of poor communities and witness a shit load of crimes that don't require investigations or even much work. Drinking in public, drug use, public intoxication, people acting disorderly, etc. When you drive up middle class streets they are generally empty or the residents are doing random things like mowing their lawns or washing their cars or something, there's definitely not a lot of noticeable crime going on. Like you say whites and blacks use the same amounts of drugs. The difference is poor people usually do them in public while non poor people are usually doing them in their homes or something.
If a cops job is to patrol and stop crime why would he waste his time in the suburbs where there isn't anything usually going on. Is he supposed stake neighborhood's out to see which residents might be using drugs or up to crime and then get a search warrant to find out? Or would they go to the inner city and hoods which are known for being violent, having open air drug markets and people walking around drunk and disorderly? I think its a no brainer why cops target poor communities and I don't think its rooted in racism

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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Brian Jones] * 2
    #26778819 - 06/24/20 09:37 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

koods said:
The comparison only works if you think criminals are turning themselves in to cops to get arrested and the cops say sorry we’re out of arresting kits.

If you don’t patrol white neighborhoods like you do black ones, you’re not going to uncover white crimes like you do black ones. In the 20+ years I’ve lived on my street I’ve seen a cop car maybe three times. I have weed growing on my deck. That is white privelege.

I’m not really sure how you think this comparison works out well for whatever argument you’re trying to make.



Do you think white and black neighborhoods have the same types and frequency of crimes yet police only choose to pick on black one because cops are just plain racists?




You pretended to ask one question, but you asked two.

Do you think white and black neighborhoods have the same type and frequency of crime? No. They are about identical for drug possession though.

Do police only choose to pick on black neighborhoods because cops are just plain racists? It's partially because of differential crime stats and partially because cops are just plain racists.

Conservatives are always looking for simple solutions but the real world is not cooperating.




Come on, we all know some black neighborhoods have drug dealing on the streets, that's why the cops pick them off much easier. It's a cultural thing, whites don't very often deal drugs in plain view.

Black neighborhoods will sometimes be open drug markets, these are the areas that police patrol because it's where all the activity exists. This isn't about cops being racist, it's about going after the low hanging fruit.

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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 4 hours, 4 minutes
Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #26778825 - 06/24/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

koods said:
The comparison only works if you think criminals are turning themselves in to cops to get arrested and the cops say sorry we’re out of arresting kits.

If you don’t patrol white neighborhoods like you do black ones, you’re not going to uncover white crimes like you do black ones. In the 20+ years I’ve lived on my street I’ve seen a cop car maybe three times. I have weed growing on my deck. That is white privelege.

I’m not really sure how you think this comparison works out well for whatever argument you’re trying to make.



Do you think white and black neighborhoods have the same types and frequency of crimes yet police only choose to pick on black one because cops are just plain racists?




You pretended to ask one question, but you asked two.

Do you think white and black neighborhoods have the same type and frequency of crime? No. They are about identical for drug possession though.

Do police only choose to pick on black neighborhoods because cops are just plain racists? It's partially because of differential crime stats and partially because cops are just plain racists.

Conservatives are always looking for simple solutions but the real world is not cooperating.



I think cops target poor people/poor communities more because they're low hanging fruit.
I think black neighborhoods are generally considered the inner city or "hoods" and white neighborhoods are generally considered the suburbs. If so, cops can easily drive into the streets of poor communities and witness a shit load of crimes that don't require investigations or even much work. Drinking in public, drug use, public intoxication, people acting disorderly, etc. When you drive up middle class streets they are generally empty or the residents are doing random things like mowing their lawns or washing their cars or something, there's definitely not a lot of noticeable crime going on. Like you say whites and blacks use the same amounts of drugs. The difference is poor people usually do them in public while non poor people are usually doing them in their homes or something.
If a cops job is to patrol and stop crime why would he waste his time in the suburbs where there isn't anything usually going on. Is he supposed stake neighborhood's out to see which residents might be using drugs or up to crime and then get a search warrant to find out? Or would they go to the inner city and hoods which are known for being violent, having open air drug markets and people walking around drunk and disorderly? I think its a no brainer why cops target poor communities and I don't think its rooted in racism




It's basically what I just said, it's like so obvious yet we have to spell it out. How sad is that?

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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Registered: 01/22/15
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: qman]
    #26778830 - 06/24/20 09:42 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

The comparison only works if you think criminals are turning themselves in to cops to get arrested and the cops say sorry we’re out of arresting kits.

If you don’t patrol white neighborhoods like you do black ones, you’re not going to uncover white crimes like you do black ones. In the 20  years I’ve lived on my street I’ve seen a cop car maybe three times. I have weed growing on my deck. That is white privelege.

I’m not really sure how you think this comparison works out well for whatever argument you’re trying to make.



Do you think white and black neighborhoods have the same types and frequency of crimes yet police only choose to pick on black one because cops are just plain racists?




You pretended to ask one question, but you asked two.

Do you think white and black neighborhoods have the same type and frequency of crime? No. They are about identical for drug possession though.

Do police only choose to pick on black neighborhoods because cops are just plain racists? It's partially because of differential crime stats and partially because cops are just plain racists.

Conservatives are always looking for simple solutions but the real world is not cooperating.



I think cops target poor people/poor communities more because they're low hanging fruit.
I think black neighborhoods are generally considered the inner city or "hoods" and white neighborhoods are generally considered the suburbs. If so, cops can easily drive into the streets of poor communities and witness a shit load of crimes that don't require investigations or even much work. Drinking in public, drug use, public intoxication, people acting disorderly, etc. When you drive up middle class streets they are generally empty or the residents are doing random things like mowing their lawns or washing their cars or something, there's definitely not a lot of noticeable crime going on. Like you say whites and blacks use the same amounts of drugs. The difference is poor people usually do them in public while non poor people are usually doing them in their homes or something.
If a cops job is to patrol and stop crime why would he waste his time in the suburbs where there isn't anything usually going on. Is he supposed stake neighborhood's out to see which residents might be using drugs or up to crime and then get a search warrant to find out? Or would they go to the inner city and hoods which are known for being violent, having open air drug markets and people walking around drunk and disorderly? I think its a no brainer why cops target poor communities and I don't think its rooted in racism




It's basically what I just said, it's like so obvious yet we have to spell it out. How sad is that?



Like how  brian says " Conservatives are always looking for simple solutions but the real world is not cooperating."

Yet he wants to blame everything on simple racism without even considering (or outright dismissing) the factors we laid out :lol:

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InvisibleEminence
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Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,627
Loc: Richmond, VA Flag
Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: koods] * 3
    #26779316 - 06/24/20 12:32 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Do black people who live in suburban areas that don't have a lot of police traffic also have white privilege?

Do asian people have white privilege or is it called asian privilege for them?

The last time I saw a cop in my neighborhood I'm in now was because some RACIST asshole came to talk to the black guy next door who was shooting his gun wildly and having the bullets whizzing past our property with one actually ricocheting off the house.

Also, isn't it legal to grow weed where you are now?


--------------------



Edited by Eminence (06/25/20 01:09 PM)

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,123
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Last seen: 15 days, 19 hours
Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence]
    #26779332 - 06/24/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Eminence said:

Do black people who live in suburban areas that don't have a lot of police traffic also have white privilege?




you are treading on thin ice with that kind of question    :shocked:

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Offlinekoods
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Registered: 05/26/11
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Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: Eminence] * 1
    #26779522 - 06/24/20 02:17 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Eminence said:
Do black people who live in suburban areas that don't have a lot of police traffic also have white privilege?




White privelege arises from the positive prejudgements people make about a white person based solely on their skin color, so no. It’s amazing how such a simple concept seems to elude comprehension by certain people. Conversely, white privelege also arises from the negative prejudgements people make about non-white people.

There are certainly prejudgements made about people who appear rich as well, but that isn’t white privelege.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Offlinemeltdowner
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Registered: 09/06/17
Posts: 1,457
Loc: New York City
Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
Re: Argument: If we are serious about protecting/improving Black Lives from predatory police and systemic racism immediately: [Re: coAsTal]
    #26780587 - 06/24/20 10:22 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Id rather not.  Easier solution, dont do crimes and be nice to police.


--------------------
I'm a Lightweight.  I like to eat like two caps at a time.

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