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Offlinemushpunx
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Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw
    #26733503 - 06/10/20 05:29 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Hey folks

Whenever I've used straw for growing actives it's always been in small amounts so I just used hot water and a bucket (pasteurization temps for an hour or so).

I'm new to edibles.
Originally for large amounts I was planning on using a 55 gallon drum + propane burner.
Honestly though using a large plastic drum + cold water/ hydrated lime with low magnesium seems like way less trouble than having to monitor the temp.

Is there some negative side to this I'm not seeing? Anyone care to share how they do it?

Thanks!!


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Offlineseagu

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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: mushpunx] * 1
    #26733620 - 06/10/20 06:49 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

less contams with pasteurization. Cold water lime buffering PH while it does work from time to time and often is not a perfect process. If you are just looking for something that may or may not work every time on a small hobby scale then lime buffering the PH could be for you. And if you wanted to make a business that fails then use Cold Water Lime PH buffering....

That said.. Pasteurization works well and is easy in a 55 gallon drum.. even a plastic one. It is what I used for 10 years.  HDPE plastic barrel handle a sustained temperature of 230F. Pasteurization temps are I think close the 170F. Offhand I forget the full range something like 160-180F roughly. But Looking at say milk pasteurization it is only 145F. But I would start the timer at 160F for straw as that is the roughly accepted starting temp.

So, a false bottom with a water heating element at the bottom with enough room around the element so the element has a water buffer around it and it is not touching the plastic barrel. And you would want to install a stainless steel rod through the barrel across the bottom where the water will be that slightly sticks out the side for attaching the ground wire to it. Home Depot sells threaded stainless steel rods. So that when you make the hole to put the rod through, make it slightly smaller and you can just screw it in tight. Silicone on both sides of the barrel will provide a water tight seal and or you could get some stainless nuts and washers or stainless nuts and high temp plastic washers and then silicone the already water tight seal for added peace of mind, unless you totally drop the ball. Always test for water leaks. The rod will cost you under $10. And will provide safety shutoff grounding if there is to become a leak of water meeting electricity. Also run it on a CGFI outlet or breaker. But I have yet to see my silicone leak. But don't blame me if yours does because you screwed it all up. :crazy2:


So, you have your heating element, grounding rod and drain all installed and water tight.. When you fill the barrel with water and straw it will take time to heat up to pasteurization temp.. So you can either figure out your total time needed after a run or two and then set and forget or you can baby sit each time and then start your timer once the barrel reaches the lower pasteurization temp.. By the time it finally reaches the upper temp limits on pasteurization, it will be done and ready to drain and cool... If you use a 1500 watt element it will heat up slowly and makes the process easy because even when it gets to the lower pasteurization temp it will take 90 minutes to get to the upper temp since you are heating up a 55 gallon barrel that is full of water and straw and not a small stove top pan.

And if you want to get fancy PID it down the road once you see how it all works well and you make money to spend on the PID.


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Offlineseagu

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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: seagu]
    #26733921 - 06/10/20 09:38 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Also, when you put the heating element in you should use a metal enclosure such as the one that gr0wer lists from brewhardware because that metal enclosure is grounded so if any water leaks near the hot electric wires it will trip the circuit as well. And then just connect that grounded point to the rod ground that runs through the water in the barrel for added safety backup. Basically what this all does is takes the place of the metal in the metal barrel for grounding and safety and provides many grounding points and the hotpot metal enclosure right up around the hot electric wires provides last split second, oh Bleep, shutoff if you get a leak there.

Don't skip these steps, if you decide to make one of these. Its an extra $30-40 that can save your life and only cost a tripped circuit if you make a mistake or have equipment failure. Plus what ever GCFI costs you if you don't already have one you can run this on. Safety First and Always. And I didn't tell you to do this so don't blame me. It's all at your own risk.


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Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: seagu]
    #26734548 - 06/10/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

When I was doing straw I used a PID controlled drum. No monitoring temps the controller does it for you. I had to have a come along to get it out of the drum. It will be very heavy once the straw has soaked up water. I got away from straw and I am so glad I made that decision!! Good luck to all of you that are brave enough to do straw. The labor involved makes the mushrooms much more expensive than they have to be.


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Offlineseagu

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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #26734586 - 06/10/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

yup.. but if someone doesn't have enough money to get all the toys right off the bat a simple long stemmed turkey thermometer will do the trick. When I did straw I used to fill 2 bags of those thicker meshed laundry bags and it was easy to lift out once the water was drained from the barrel.


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: seagu]
    #26734739 - 06/10/20 03:47 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I only mentioned the PID because he said he was going to use a propane burner and a 55-gallon drum but didn't want to have to keep adjusting the temp. Propane costs more to run and to build. But of course, you have to have a 240 volt available. I would stop with the straw now and go to HWFP's They are more economical. But again they have to be available where he is located. No one bothers to let us know where they are located so it is hard to give them help. The metal enclosure you are talking about is called a hot pod. I agree it is something you want to have.


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #26735454 - 06/10/20 08:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you guys for all this information!!

So the lime buffering does not seem to be as great as it was made out to be. Doubt I will go that route.

Anyone know how long roughly it takes to get a drum up to temp using a propane burner? I like the idea of using the laundry bags, I was thinking I'd make a wire mesh basket but that sounds easier


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: mushpunx]
    #26735645 - 06/10/20 10:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

It has been a long time since I attempted straw but I used a nylon mesh laundry bag from ebay and it does work well. I would also suggest some thick rubber gloves. I remember it being very heavy and hooked up a come-along to make it easier.

It is going to be hard for anyone to tell you how long it will take to get to temp. because your will more than likely be using a different amount of water. The time will increase and decrease with the amount of water accordingly.


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #26735688 - 06/10/20 10:52 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SHROOMSISAY01 said:
It has been a long time since I attempted straw but I used a nylon mesh laundry bag from ebay and it does work well. I would also suggest some thick rubber gloves. I remember it being very heavy and hooked up a come-along to make it easier.

It is going to be hard for anyone to tell you how long it will take to get to temp. because your will more than likely be using a different amount of water. The time will increase and decrease with the amount of water accordingly.




Right on.

Is there a reason you don't like using straw? I was going to start with Oysters and it seems like a good substrate.
Looking into fuel pellets too.

I am proficient in culture work on agar and producing clean spawn already so I have that part set.


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: mushpunx]
    #26735857 - 06/11/20 01:03 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yea there are a few. Straw is to much work and is very messy. You will have straw everywhere. I use fuel pellets and soy hulls which outperforms straw by a long shot. I put 2.4 lbs fuel pellets and 1.2 lbs of soy hulls in the 5 lb bag and then use a flow meter to put the water into the bags. It takes me less than a minute per bag. I fold the bags and put them in my steamer and come back in a couple days and inoculate. When I inoculate I have to mix the spawn in so the soy and fuel pellets gets mixed at this time also. I don't know many people that do straw for very long most people move to fuel pellets after they see the labor difference. I get 33 bags from 1 bag of fuel pellets and a bag of soy. I get 1.5 to 2 lbs 1st flush from them. So you got less than $10 in soy and fuel pellets to make $500 if you get $10 an lb. In my opinion and it is only an opinion you make more with fuel pellets because your labor costs are minimal. If I had to do straw again I would just stop growing mushrooms to be honest.


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: SHROOMSISAY01] * 1
    #26735868 - 06/11/20 01:14 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I would also suggest buying good spawn from Amycel or aloha medicinals North spore is also good I here. Oh and mycelia. make master slants and you won't have to worry about spawn for a long time Amycel I suggest 3015 and aloha I suggest Elma both are great and good producers. I have both of them if you are interested. My point is to let them do the work to get a monoculture. All you have to do then is reap the benefits.


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #26735961 - 06/11/20 03:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

With supplemented sawdust bags they need to be sterilized and inoculated + sealed in front of a flow hood, correct?

I don't have a steamer, I have an AA 21qt sterilizer and a Presto 23qt PC, and I can fit about 4 six quart bags in each.

How do you fruit the sawdust blocks?

Maybe I will skip the straw all together


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Edited by mushpunx (06/11/20 03:52 AM)


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #26735965 - 06/11/20 03:49 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SHROOMSISAY01 said:
I would also suggest buying good spawn from Amycel or aloha medicinals North spore is also good I here. Oh and mycelia. make master slants and you won't have to worry about spawn for a long time Amycel I suggest 3015 and aloha I suggest Elma both are great and good producers. I have both of them if you are interested. My point is to let them do the work to get a monoculture. All you have to do then is reap the benefits.




This is my first Oyster grow , I have a clean liquid culture syringe , I'm gonna start a little spawn with it and also put the culture to a couple agar plates to store it and just expand it from there. I will most likely take some clones from this grow. 

I like to produce my own spawn but I will definitely want to get some slanted pure strains yeah!

BTW I appreciate all the advice :thumbup:


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: mushpunx]
    #26736656 - 06/11/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Are you trying to sell the mushrooms or are you doing this as a hobby? If you are trying to sell them how much can you sell a week?


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #26738066 - 06/11/20 09:48 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SHROOMSISAY01 said:
Are you trying to sell the mushrooms or are you doing this as a hobby? If you are trying to sell them how much can you sell a week?




I don't know yet. I suppose I am starting out small as a hobbiest while I learn what I am doing and then go from there.

I am coming from the magic mushroom world where we need to produce high volumes of clean spawn and mostly fruit in stacks of clear plastic totes.

What I have to work with is a flow hood , an Eberbach unit, culturing tools, lots of spawn jars/bags and an AA 21qt sterilizer + Presto 23qt PC. I can sterilize about 8 , 6qt bags at once.


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OfflineTBeau
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #26738423 - 06/12/20 01:16 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Are you pasteurizing in a steamer? Or run it for ~18 hours for sterilization?


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: TBeau]
    #26738469 - 06/12/20 01:42 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

If you are asking me I sterilize in a 55 gallon drum.


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #26738656 - 06/12/20 04:41 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

When you use HWFP + soy in bags you need to sterilize them and then inoculate with spawn in front of a flow hood right?

How do you then fruit the bags?


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Offlineseagu

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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: TBeau]
    #26738767 - 06/12/20 06:13 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TBeau said:
Are you pasteurizing in a steamer? Or run it for ~18 hours for sterilization?




I am now steaming in a pasteurizer now steamer for sterilization.. Works like cookies n' cream. A pasteurizer is what "everyone" was building out of the 55 gallon barrels before "everyone" was building steamers out of them. I have always used the plastic barrels instead of the metal ones. I still had my pasteurizer of course. I had a suspicion it might work as a steamer. But had always thought it would steam off too much water and that I NEEDED to have water running to it through a float valve and that the temp would get too hot for a plastic barrel for the steam... But that is not the case at all if the heating element is kept under water.. The water prevents the temp from going too hot. Two layers of bricks for the stand for the stainless steel false bottom above the heating element and there is plenty of water for a rustless steaming experience.. so far I am running it for 24 hours. Maybe I could run it for 18. I am still kicking the tires. And so with the new configuration of the bricks and solid false bottom instead of a grill grate instead of steaming off about 2 inches of water.. only 0 inches of water has steamed off. So next run I am going to test removing the top layer of bricks for reclaimed space to add another row of blocks capability. Right now I am only using a 1500 watt water heater element. I will build another barrel to test out a 5000 watt 240V element so it will be a shorter run time. But it should work exactly the same just getting up to temp quicker. I will find out once I build it with enough extra grounding points and other such safety backups I feel safe about so that the worse that could be able to happen is a blown fuse and a melted barrel.


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Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.


Edited by seagu (06/12/20 06:29 AM)


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OfflineMartinsapin
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: mushpunx]
    #26777619 - 06/23/20 07:27 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mushpunx said:
When you use HWFP + soy in bags you need to sterilize them and then inoculate with spawn in front of a flow hood right?

How do you then fruit the bags?




Depending of the species you make either a slit, a X, remove the top. Well with oyster a make a slit across the bag from side to side with a sharp and clean blade.

Yeah you got to inoculate them in front of a flow hood.


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InvisibleBsdgaou

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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: Martinsapin]
    #26778062 - 06/23/20 10:56 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Martinsapin said:
Quote:

mushpunx said:
When you use HWFP + soy in bags you need to sterilize them and then inoculate with spawn in front of a flow hood right?

How do you then fruit the bags?




Depending of the species you make either a slit, a X, remove the top. Well with oyster a make a slit across the bag from side to side with a sharp and clean blade.

Yeah you got to inoculate them in front of a flow hood.




Do you cut bag at the bottom, where is the densest?


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: Bsdgaou]
    #26778326 - 06/24/20 02:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Are you fruiting them in open air like you would buckets or poly bags (with oysters) or do you need a greenhouse?


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OfflineMartinsapin
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Re: Cold water + lime vs hot pasteurization of straw [Re: mushpunx]
    #26778474 - 06/24/20 06:01 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Dont fruit em open air. Indoor growroom or outdoors you know the drill aim to be respect the growth parameters.

If you talkin about open air laundry basket like RR. Thats was my first oyster grow, where I live it the ambient outdoor humidity is too dry.

You can fruit everything off a bag, so yes oyster included.

Some great growers on youtube are What The Fungus and Earth Angels. They used that technique.

Youre already a great grower Mushpunx and you got your lab skills. You ll have fun doing it !


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Edited by Martinsapin (06/24/20 06:02 AM)


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