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OfflineTheSpiral
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Registered: 02/18/20
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Antibiotics, anti-mold agents, and hydrogen peroxide
    #26733355 - 06/10/20 04:07 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

While success is often found simply mixing colonized grain with coco coir in the appropriate manner and ratio, it is as yet unclear after years of experience whether there is a benefit to adding small quantities of hydrogen peroxide to the coir in an attempt to stave off contamination. Can anyone expound a bit on this? )

That has led to these further questions-
1. Is there a benefit to pasteurization over sterilization, or vice versa, before mixing coir and colonized grain?

2. Some success has been found in staving off bacterial contamination for statistically significant periods by prudent usage of beta-lactam (eg amoxicillin) additive to coir before mixing with colonized grain. However, the extent to which there is a negative effect, where healthy bacteria are killed off that might prevent mold, remains unknown.

Naturally, this raises the following question- to what extent are there effective chemical countermeasures to also stave off various molds, at least for a few flushes? Considering metabolic relatedness between P. Cubensis and this type of invader we are attempting to delay, should one be optimistic or pessimistic at the prospect of effective agents being available and worthwhile?

Note - of course these sorts of countermeasures are not strictly necessary, and some will have ideological reasons for opposing them. With that understanding, please let this thread serve as a repository of the relevant information rather than a debate. Happy to engage in that discussion in another thread!

Thanks for the time and attention!

(should this be cross posted to advanced mycology? If so I tip my hat to any mod who might do that favor. Thanks again)


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Sound the reveille: to be or not to be
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Elementary - Muster every fiber
Mobilize! Stay alive!


Edited by TheSpiral (06/10/20 04:18 AM)


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Antibiotics, anti-mold agents, and hydrogen peroxide [Re: TheSpiral] * 2
    #26733432 - 06/10/20 04:53 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

1. I think you're confused. They serve different purposes and some substrates are compatible with different prep.

2. It's a lot easier to just practice a couple times and develop skill. But noobs tend to want to find a magic bullet easy way out. You'll end up quitting the hobby trying to avoid contamination with chemicals and antibiotics.

The reason people ideologically oppose it is because it doesn't work and noobs always bring it up or want to try it those who do fail. It's become such a common thread that people don't bother explaining the nuances because it can just be searched easily. It's repeatedly brought up so much people just post NO.

Add peroxide to your tubs if you want to slow down healthy mycelium


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OfflineManifoldPrime
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Re: Antibiotics, anti-mold agents, and hydrogen peroxide [Re: TheSpiral] * 1
    #26733433 - 06/10/20 04:54 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I swear, this exact thread gets posted at least once a week, almost always by a new poster. I am going to answer your questions, then leave you with a lil philosophy.

Dont add peroxide to your coir. Coir does not contaminate if prepped even sloppily. I found a bucket of coir I thought I had lost over 9 months ago underneath a trailer, and lo and behold the half a batch of coir inside was fresh as a daisy (okay it wasnt that nice smelling but it had no mold or obvious bacteria)

Quote:

1. Is there a benefit to pasteurization over sterilization, or vice versa, before mixing coir and colonized grain? 



Full thread answering your question. Quick answer: It doesnt seem to make a world of difference, FOCUS on CLEAN SPAWN.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19178683

2. Some success has been found in staving off bacterial contamination for statistically significant periods by prudent usage of beta-lactam (eg amoxicillin) additive to coir before mixing with colonized grain. However, the extent to which there is a negative effect, where healthy bacteria are killed off that might prevent mold, remains unknown.
You do not need to do this, because again, unless your coir was filthy, it will most likely be the last thing you are able to contaminate.

Another example of why this line of thinking is unnecessary, is how many people use just straight coir or CVG in humidity chambers (I do this), reptile bedding, or just store it, for months on end. I have never seen straight coir with mold on it.


Quote:

Naturally, this raises the following question- to what extent are there effective chemical countermeasures to also stave off various molds, at least for a few flushes?



Clean spawn, and the coirs natural resistance to molds, being that its mostly just cellulose.

Quote:

Considering metabolic relatedness between P. Cubensis and this type of invader we are attempting to delay, should one be optimistic or pessimistic at the prospect of effective agents being available and worthwhile



Anything that would be effective enough to stall green molds and such that you could just throw into the coir would also harm the Cube myc. You know what does help in this case? The so-called good bacteria that pasteurisation preserves. Pasteurisation is not super necessary, Bucket tek is a sort of lazy, quick form of pasteurising that more or less accomplishes this.


Quote:

Note - of course these sorts of countermeasures are not strictly necessary, and some will have ideological reasons for opposing them.



Please please PLEASE do not start considering the standard practices and advice of "keep it simple stupid" as ideological disposition or dogma. We want you to grow. but until you post some of your own grows to demonstrate you have at least proficiency of the basics, the members of this forum are gonna consider you as another newbie that got all excited and researched a bunch of mycology-adjacent info, and are theorycrafting ways to revolutionise the business while your first PF cakes are still colonising in the background.
I call them Pickle Rickers, cause half the time they see themselves as a mad scientist (and literally have rick sanchez avatars), rather than what they are, just an enthusiastic newb. Derogatory, I know :hehehe:


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Offlinetonz0Funguy
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Re: Antibiotics, anti-mold agents, and hydrogen peroxide [Re: TheSpiral]
    #26733481 - 06/10/20 05:21 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

There's no reason for amoxicillin if you properly pasteurize your substrate. Your killing off all the harmful bacteria and just leaving the good bacteria, I could see some on a agar plate for germination of something rare or if you have a high spore load and using a sab but I built a flow hood for 250ish buck with 6" inline duct fan and 13x13 hepa. If you put antibiotics in your substrate just so they dont have to pasteurize well that's just lazy and shouldn't be growing mushrooms. Antibiotics are so over prescribed and eventually will not work like they should on people. Viruss will also become antibiotic resistant in the future so the less we consume the better. If i get contam I cut it then pick it out with a plastic bag and bury it outside as to not get spores everywhere. I use a mix of coir, poo, micracle grow organic soil which has worm castings, bone meal, alpha meal and a bunch of other good stuff. I tried using the coir straight from the block with lil success I know plent of ppl do though.


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OfflineTheSpiral
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Registered: 02/18/20
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Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Antibiotics, anti-mold agents, and hydrogen peroxide [Re: ManifoldPrime]
    #26733597 - 06/10/20 06:33 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I was a user here when this place was new! And for many years! So the state of the art has not changed.

Aware coir will mix beautifully with clean healthy substrate most of the time, just was curious if anything had been further optimized.

Thanks for letting me know. I saved time in the end, it would have taken longer to search enough threads to be sure, so I gratefully was able to use yours to make sure I hadn't missed out on any new tech in the past decade! Thanks for spending it, it's much appreciated.

Cheers


--------------------
Sound the dread alarm through the primal body
Sound the reveille: to be or not to be
Rise!
Stay the grand finale!
Stay the reading of our swan song and epilogue.
One drive: to stay alive
Elementary - Muster every fiber
Mobilize! Stay alive!


Edited by TheSpiral (06/10/20 06:34 AM)


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OfflineTheSpiral
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Registered: 02/18/20
Posts: 5
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Antibiotics, anti-mold agents, and hydrogen peroxide [Re: tonz0Funguy]
    #26733607 - 06/10/20 06:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I may have been using the lab brain a bit when referring to antibiotic impregnated "substrate" that is not agar.

If Monsanto  were trying to grow cubes in an industrial chemical way, would they not go to every length to fully optimize their production just like big ag already does? It's not crazy to think this sort of thing could be happening.


--------------------
Sound the dread alarm through the primal body
Sound the reveille: to be or not to be
Rise!
Stay the grand finale!
Stay the reading of our swan song and epilogue.
One drive: to stay alive
Elementary - Muster every fiber
Mobilize! Stay alive!


Edited by TheSpiral (06/10/20 06:44 AM)


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OfflineManifoldPrime
Per Ardua Ad Astra
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 1,313
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Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Antibiotics, anti-mold agents, and hydrogen peroxide [Re: TheSpiral]
    #26733611 - 06/10/20 06:45 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, its in human nature and often in the behaviour of industrialists to laser focus on yields, and killing competition instead of doing the obvious, low energy, passive method that doesn't absolutely wreck shit in the future.


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OfflineTheSpiral
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Registered: 02/18/20
Posts: 5
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Antibiotics, anti-mold agents, and hydrogen peroxide [Re: ManifoldPrime]
    #26733645 - 06/10/20 07:14 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

On that you are preaching to the converted my friend. Things are going to have to change an awful lot. my sig might give me away =)

It would be probably a better sign for the world if even a small fraction of our ag problems were due to the enormous demand for cubes, counterintuitively perhaps? Means a lot more people would be using their debdrites and axon terminals.

Edit - I want to stand by the original peroxide comment but I do not know - does it remains possible that there could be a concentration at which the benefit might outweigh the costs, or have any controlled trials been done and it's been completely ruled out even at parts per million, and I'm just wrong?

The latter is maybe more likely =) That also may depend on the state of your coir (how much of it isn't coir lol)


Edited by TheSpiral (06/10/20 07:26 AM)


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