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BrendanFlock
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Is feeling good the only measure of a good life?
#26730048 - 06/08/20 09:08 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've thought about this allot..
I've always been a person that has divided work and fun.. and mostly focused on the latter... focusing on the former as needed..
But i've always kind of avoided work.. calling it suffering..
I woukd say if you are happy than your not suffering..
So if your suffering you don't live a good life..
And therefore happiness or good feelings in general is the only test of a good life..
So therefore my conclusion is feeling good is valid.. and is the only true test of living a good life..!
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rustygrape
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#26730071 - 06/08/20 09:18 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Feeling good is your indicator of moving in the direction of your desires and / or having manifested those desires. So, yes.
I think the problem many of us run into is tricking ourselves into thinking, rather than feeling, we are feeling "good"
Edited by rustygrape (06/08/20 09:20 PM)
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: rustygrape]
#26730106 - 06/08/20 09:35 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think both are valid..
Thinking as a conclusion..
Feeling as a necessary
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4_PO_DabMerT
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#26732507 - 06/09/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Suffering is necessary though, if only on a fundamental level. Without any sort of suffering, or even 'bad' feeling if you will, how could you possibly know no suffering, or 'good' feeling. Opposites and duality is everything, its what provides the experience of life we experience. Its the epitome of 'conscientiousness'. The ability to feel, smell, taste, hear, see, and think everything that there is to feel, smell, taste, hear, see, and think.
Just imagine for a second, seriously, what your life would be like up to now without any sort of suffering at all. Now also imagine what the world would be like without any sort of suffering. Honestly, WE anatomically modern humans, probably wouldn't exist today.
Suffering is part of the human condition, and the building blocks of progression and growth. One could almost argue that the level of ones suffering is the test of a good life; suffering, the test of a life worth living.
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~ 358 ~ Forever in Spirit, Erik. SoulSignedADeal BlessedBySpirit AlchemicalAngel
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: 4_PO_DabMerT]
#26732682 - 06/09/20 08:51 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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What doesn't kill me makes me stronger..
^definitely worked for me.. its true!
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4_PO_DabMerT
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#26732817 - 06/09/20 09:47 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I love some and it feels good. I love others and it hurts. Yet, regardless of how the act of loving makes me feel, I still manage to love.
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~ 358 ~ Forever in Spirit, Erik. SoulSignedADeal BlessedBySpirit AlchemicalAngel
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: 4_PO_DabMerT]
#26732825 - 06/09/20 09:53 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Love goes on and goes through love!
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#26733058 - 06/09/20 11:59 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Eudaimonia or the principle of happiness is often attributed to Aristotelian ethics in classical philosophy. Of course it has its iterations in modern philosophy as well. I am something of a Platonist (owing to Psychedelic Experiences by which the Jungian archetypes and Sheldrakian Morphic Resonance seem to be reminiscent of the Platonic forms. But I greatly digress). Under my name on these forums I have listed my feeling as "Virtuous," and my signature as Socratic, yet harkening back to the Delphic Oracle's "Know Thyself." The Wikipedia article on Eudaimonia includes this Socratic blurb:
"As with all ancient ethical thinkers, Socrates thought that all human beings wanted eudaimonia more than anything else. (see Plato, Apology 30b, Euthydemus 280d–282d, Meno 87d–89a). However, Socrates adopted a quite radical form of eudaimonism (see above): he seems to have thought that virtue is both necessary and sufficient for eudaimonia. Socrates is convinced that virtues such as self-control, courage, justice, piety, wisdom and related qualities of mind and soul are absolutely crucial if a person is to lead a good and happy (eudaimon) life. Virtues guarantee a happy life eudaimonia." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaimonia
But beyond Socrates I have to agree with the post-modern philosophy/psychology of Logotherapy, brainchild of Auschwitz survivor the late psychiatrist Dr. Victor Frankl. For Frankl, happiness is a side-effect of a meaningful life. Meaning becomes the meta-motive. This is true for the INTP personality type. As a group we have our particular proclivities, one of which is having meaningful employment. But the meta-motive of meaning transcends typology. People simply need to self-actualize it in different ways. Sometimes the word purpose is used interchangeably with meaning
“We all have a will to meaning in us.” He said that the “will to pleasure” (Freud) and the “will to power” (Adler) do not define the human being. They do not bring happiness or fulfillment. If you try to pursue happiness for its own sake, it will elude you. Happiness “ensues” when you fulfill something that is meaningful to you. It is through that seemingly paradoxical process of “self-transcendence”—forgetting oneself—that real “self-actualization” becomes possible." - https://parabola.org/2017/01/31/viktor-frankl-and-the-search-for-meaning-a-conversation-with-alexander-vesely-and-mary-cimiluca/
In this same Parabola article I quoted above there is an interesting juxtaposition of Frankl's Logotherapy with Abraham Maslow's Psychology of Being that might also be illustrative of the nature of the "good life."
"Abraham Maslow, in his “hierarchy of needs,” said that once basic needs (food, shelter) are met, then the intangibles such as love, meaning, and self-actualization can be fulfilled. But my grandfather disagreed. He told Maslow how people did not have their “basic” needs met in the concentration camps, but it was the “higher” needs (i.e., meanings, love, and values) that proved to be much more relevant to their chance of survival. Maslow revised his ideas and said, “Frankl is right.” My grandfather emphasized that it’s not about “having what you need to live” but asking yourself, “What am I living for?” The most affluent societies have all their basic needs met, but they lack something to live for, and neurotic disorders tend to increase." - https://parabola.org/2017/01/31/viktor-frankl-and-the-search-for-meaning-a-conversation-with-alexander-vesely-and-mary-cimiluca/
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26733091 - 06/10/20 12:26 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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The more well off you are.. in the survival of the fittest sense.. the more happier you are?
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#26734581 - 06/10/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: The more well off you are.. in the survival of the fittest sense.. the more happier you are?
Not necessarily. I had a hypnotherapy client who was a handsome body-builder type who ran his own successful business. He was admired and envied by others but he was not happy. It turned out that even in his 30s he still experienced himself as less than significant, as a worthless nobody. Outwardly he carried himself well and he possessed all the trappings of financial success but inside he was sadly insecure because he was being emotionally influenced by a series of childhood traumas. As a child his parents were employees of wealthy people and their spoiled-rotten children said cruel and demeaning things to him such that he developed a complex that remained with him his entire life. It was not until this damaged 'inner child' was comforted and his tormentors forgiven could he then forgive himself for continuing to self-flagellate himself by self-deprecation. (These are necessary steps in the 5-Path™ method that I subscribe to).
But the point is that physical and financial fitness does not necessarily extend to our psychological and spiritual natures and thus to our awareness and appreciation of the more obvious aspects of ourselves. There can be 'blocks' to our experience of wholeness/health/happiness and if we do not perceive our wholeness/health/happiness then we are for all intent and purpose not whole/healthy/happy. It's like one of those stories with a moral: a downtrodden, penniless man who had put on a used coat but does not check its pockets still walks around in need because he hasn't become aware that there is a $100 bill tucked away in an inside pocket.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Yellow Pants



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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26735198 - 06/10/20 07:05 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Feeling good is good but at the same time there is the speel of instant gratification/delayed gratification and the what goes up must come down argument. That being said it isn’t really that straightforward either unfortunately. Instant gratification isn’t a catch all term to explain all experiences of that nature. Sometimes it can be “dug” other times not so much. All this seems to point to the conclusion that there are no rules outside of the ones we project either based on good persuasion or not. Challenging, very challenging.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26735374 - 06/10/20 08:09 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Gratification, like satisfaction is often used in connection with the Freudian Pleasure-Principle. There are additional forms of psychic homeostasis like the word fulfillment which the book BE HERE NOW introduced to my then burgeoning spiritual vocabulary. What the actual meaning is of the word "good" in the clause "feeling good" can vary. People use the word 'good' like they use the word love in English, indiscriminately, inaccurately, and inappropriately. I'd ask adolescents (as a counselor) how they were and they'd often say "good." If pressed to describe what "good" felt like they were often stymied. They had a very limited emotional vocabulary and/or were not very reflective about what they were experiencing. I'd tease them when it felt appropriate and say "there are more feelings than mad, sad, or glad."
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Yellow Pants



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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26735430 - 06/10/20 08:33 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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“psychic homeostasis”. I think that about says it. I too worked with adolescences, delinquents and treatment goers, where I should of asked about their psychic homeostasis. I could of rambled and killed a good hour there. Which of course is the point where they are not breaking shit. Beside the point I guess.
Yes, elaboration is important, I agree, but not everybody has that talent. Probably due to the garbage education system.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26735512 - 06/10/20 09:02 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Just cuz it feels good doesn’t mean it’s good.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Yellow Pants



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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26735525 - 06/10/20 09:10 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Just cuz it feels good doesn’t mean it’s good.
Time. Should one consider time, or how much should one consider time?
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#26735544 - 06/10/20 09:21 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Considering what? In regards to what exactly? To me, time is a useful mental trick & social convention to be able to mentally plant little Alarm clocks & post it notes for the sake of remembering certain things & reference. Useful to the individual in solo mode, and for collectively orchestrating events in space at the same instant in what is essentially the primordial now or present.
It allows us to accomplish things that otherwise would never be possible. It’s like a skillful mean for utilizing a reference point. Beyond that, it’s not really useful. It’s a very clever trick & handy tool- and who says illusions are good for nothing? Time proves otherwise...that even the unreal & illusory can have a real impact on us and the world.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26735551 - 06/10/20 09:24 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hmmm, so its not the fulfillment of wants/needs but is the very experience that we enjoy that makes us happy..
So good experience = happiness!
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Yellow Pants



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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26735590 - 06/10/20 09:40 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Considering what? In regards to what exactly? To me, time is a useful mental trick & social convention to be able to mentally plant little Alarm clocks & post it notes for the sake of remembering certain things & reference. Useful to the individual in solo mode, and for collectively orchestrating events in space at the same instant in what is essentially the primordial now or present.
It allows us to accomplish things that otherwise would never be possible. It’s like a skillful mean for utilizing a reference point. Beyond that, it’s not really useful. It’s a very clever trick & handy tool- and who says illusions are good for nothing? Time proves otherwise...that even the unreal & illusory can have a real impact on us and the world.
See this reminds me of what I had originally thought. To “will” is as good as it gets. To not will is to give up yet still face existence unless of course one opts for the suicidal tactic which is of course frowned upon.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26735617 - 06/10/20 09:57 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, I went to public schools in a suburban town in NJ. I got shifted to and old elementary for one year in 5th grade that was built in 1926 (that was where I was on November 22, 1963, in reading group, when JFK got murdered. It's a Boomer thing to say where you were 'when'). It was not a "garbage education system" then and apparently the high school is now one of the best in the nation. See, unlike a LOT of people we see today, and not only Millennials and Xennials, I knew from elementary school what the 4th of July commemorates. In that 5th grade year I had to memorize the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States - something the standing faux fucking POTUS doesn't even know.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26735646 - 06/10/20 10:18 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I thought all schools taught students various important dates & their significant events that took place throughout American history?
They may have edited out any film that captured people who knew the answers.
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Yellow Pants



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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26735730 - 06/10/20 11:16 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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so what I take from that is the USA means fucking nothing realistically. The video that is.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26735770 - 06/10/20 11:40 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've watched a number of this guy's interviews, Memorial Day recently. Some people know basic American history and he does include them but I suspect that he calls over the perceptibly vacuous of which San Diego seems to have a bumper crop. The fact that there are SO many clueless idiots in one small spot is disconcerting nevertheless.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26735788 - 06/10/20 11:50 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said:
so what I take from that is the USA means fucking nothing realistically. The video that is.
These idiots are privileged just by living in the USA. I would surmise that they take everything they have for granted, have no psychological sense of gratitude or a spiritual sense of thanksgiving. Meaning qua meaning, including what the USA means to their freedom is something so far above their rather primitive sensory-existence that the mind boggles. After 3 weeks in Lagos, Nigeria even living there in opulence behind 10 foot walls topped with razor-wire, I kissed my driveway when I got home. I'd never seen troops of legless amputees flopping around in traffic while begging, or groups of rag-wrapped, bell-carrying lepers begging in the parking lot of a restaurant they'll never see the inside of, or men living between huge boulders on the beach with a clear plastic drop cloth for a 'roof.' I am grateful to have been born in the USA (and may DJT die in his sleep as I type).
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Yellow Pants



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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26735816 - 06/11/20 12:13 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I’m not sure whether to congratulate or despise those who have no sense of history.
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Yellow Pants



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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26735818 - 06/11/20 12:15 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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An inaccurate understanding of history is certainly garbage..
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Forrester
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26736233 - 06/11/20 08:25 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: These idiots are privileged just by living in the USA. I would surmise that they take everything they have for granted, have no psychological sense of gratitude or a spiritual sense of thanksgiving. Meaning qua meaning, including what the USA means to their freedom is something so far above their rather primitive sensory-existence that the mind boggles.
While you are screaming at the young ones to get off your lawn, do try to take into account the fact that youth of today do not have the same opportunities you had (or the same life experience at all) and America is not the same place it was 50 years ago when you were their age. So America may not mean the same thing to them as it means to you.
You are surmising an awful lot from a likely heavily edited youtube video...
Sorry don't mean to pick on you, but you seem very quick to condemn for someone as intelligent as yourself.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: Forrester]
#26737478 - 06/11/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I worked in middle schools as a crisis intervention specialist for 27 years. Middle school kids take civics as well as other social studies courses and I'm here to tell you that the intelligent ones I've worked with have found opportunities in all sorts of fields, from driving an ambulance that once picked up my Dad in an emergency to an MD, MBA who is now head of anesthesiology at University of Chicago Medical Center (or whatever their hospital is named), or local attorneys in Miami practices (like my wife's cousin who is still in her 20s, raised in Jamaica). Some have gone into local politics, one has been my plumber for 20 years (a college grad who for a number of reasons took over his dad's business). There are cops and fire-rescue workers who wanted to do these jobs and seized the opportunities for doing so. One of my former counselees is a stand-up comedian in L.A., another is an actor/hip-hop artist in L.A. who visits me when he's in 'the 305.' The list could go on and on but I'm the one who has this lived experience and unlike you I saw where it was and have seen where it went. You're evidencing ageism, that form of prejudice against, well age. I was there, you have only heard, and here we both are now.
No, this is not the 1970s and the world has obviously changed. Opportunities have changed too, not ceased. There were no home computers, no cell phones, no companies other than AT&T which monopolized communications, no tech companies. Yes this video filtered the people who DID know a simple, basic fact about THE American holiday and the origin of the USA, but still, in the same day and in the same place there were as many absolutely clueless people who blamed how long it had been since school, or that history wasn't their favorite, or whatever. So, "screaming?" No. Crying is more like it. I'm not "surmising anything," I'm presenting a density of dumb that just floors me. Don't ask me to do a quadratic equation or a chemistry stoichiometric equation 50 years after learning these things (although I am trying to relearn physical chemistry and organic for the first time for shits-&-giggles), but what is the 4th of July about?! Please. Go lay you trip on some other elder. Chances are you'll receive a whole lot harsher response than this. Picking on me? Is that what you're doing? 
I do not scream at young one's on my lawn although I DID warn off a young autistic boy who was trying to slurp up un-chlorinated well-water that was still bubbling up from a lawn sprinkler that has shut off because I didn't want him to come down with some amoebic dysentery or swallow a fertilizer pollutant. It's the clumsy adult neighbor who has thrice snapped off the very same un-retracted pop-up sprinkler head. No, I didn't scream at him either.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Forrester
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic] 1
#26738830 - 06/12/20 06:56 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Sorry if I offended, I'm just sick of the out-of-touch, Bill Maher style millenial bashing that goes on so often these days. I'm not comparing you to Bill Maher, I don't know you, your comment just smelled of it and I admit I get triggered by certain attitudes, but that's my problem not yours, so I apologize that I didn't choose my wording better. I was not picking on you and don't come on the internet to win arguments
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: Forrester]
#26739577 - 06/12/20 01:06 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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It is decent of you to apologize, to me or anyone else, but here one is not necessary. I was not offended. I do think you are right about something getting triggered in you. Being a douchebag crosses generational lines. I endeavor not to be one but we all fuck up at times. None of us are "Clears" or "Operating Thetans" as the sci-fi religion of Scientology proffers. Sometimes I am accused of trying to be 'above' persons, places and things but this is a hierarchical view which brings about resentment and condemnation. I would prefer to say that I am simply not 'about' certain social conventions which many people commonly identify with, often to the exclusion of other equally or more important aspects of personhood.
Bill Maher can sometimes in rare moments be spot-on, but by-and-large he is arrogant and can be quite a jerk, which is why my wife and I stopped watching his show. For example, I recognize the hypocrisy and puerility of literalist, fundamentalist religionists, Christians or otherwise, but I find it unwise to mock sacred symbols of Ultimate Reality for a number of practical as well as intuitive reasons. Maher does that often which I think is unwise. However in one recent rare exceptions to his obnoxiousness he spoke out against institutionalized animal abuse AKA agri-farming.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Forrester
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26740015 - 06/12/20 04:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks for understanding. I let me ego speak sometimes before I can re-think what I mean to really say I like how you put it, not being 'about' certain things, and I do have to agree there's plenty to not be about in that video.
I think what happened with Bill Maher was far too much time in a rich, elitist bubble. He used to hit it on the head all the time, and progressively got worse until he almost completely lost touch. He is now vastly distanced from anything and everything he used to stand for, and has no idea what it's like to not be rich and lead the narrative in every conversation. Although he does occasionally still get it right, like you said about agri-farming and a few others. I agree though, it's not worth watching his show for. Even his monologues are a cringe-fest. Oh, Bill
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26740896 - 06/13/20 12:13 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: It is decent of you to apologize, to me or anyone else, but here one is not necessary. I was not offended. I do think you are right about something getting triggered in you. Being a douchebag crosses generational lines. I endeavor not to be one but we all fuck up at times. None of us are "Clears" or "Operating Thetans" as the sci-fi religion of Scientology proffers. Sometimes I am accused of trying to be 'above' persons, places and things but this is a hierarchical view which brings about resentment and condemnation. I would prefer to say that I am simply not 'about' certain social conventions which many people commonly identify with, often to the exclusion of other equally or more important aspects of personhood.
Bill Maher can sometimes in rare moments be spot-on, but by-and-large he is arrogant and can be quite a jerk, which is why my wife and I stopped watching his show. For example, I recognize the hypocrisy and puerility of literalist, fundamentalist religionists, Christians or otherwise, but I find it unwise to mock sacred symbols of Ultimate Reality for a number of practical as well as intuitive reasons. Maher does that often which I think is unwise. However in one recent rare exceptions to his obnoxiousness he spoke out against institutionalized animal abuse AKA agri-farming.
Markos you spoke of universal symbols..
Can you sight a few..?
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#26742284 - 06/13/20 05:32 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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All language uses symbols. Written language, whether hieroglyphics, pictograms, combinations of letters that create a morpheme like OM or a word like GOD are symbols. So, when Bill Maher (or the late George Carlin, or anyone for that matter) mocks words which are pregnant with symbolic meaning they disrespect symbols of the sacred, a category of being of which they are unaware [see The Sacred and the Profane by Mircea Eliade]. Such people are ignorant of the fact that even they hold something 'sacred,' not in the sense of holy, but something that is absolutely essential to them.
Much of what people hold 'sacred,' essential, is unworthy of devotion. If Donald Trump was in some kind of cave-in and the air was cut off, in due time he would be praying and pleading and promising anyone who might be digging him out all the money which he reveres for a mere hole in the debris in which to draw his next breath. (Of course Trump being Trump, he would renege on his promise). There is nothing more essential to life than our next breath. To breath in is called inhalation but also inspiration ("The word was originally used of a divine or supernatural being, in the sense ‘impart a truth or idea to someone’"). To exhale is also called expiration (which also means death). In Greek the word pneuma means both air and spirit.
So, mocking peoples' God-concepts is mocking symbols. You added the descriptor "universal" and rightly so since God-concepts, and before concepts morphemes or words symbolizing the primal religious emotion of awe IS a universal human phenomenon. I am guilty of disparaging the mythological image of an "Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky," but I do not insult any symbolic expression for Ultimate Reality regardless of the religious culture which uses it. There is only One Ultimate Reality and it does not matter if one calls It YHWH, Allah, Brahman, The Great Spirit or whatever. But when people refer to the "Invisible Man in the Sky," or "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" they are mocking a category of being, even in its manifestation as a mere God-concept, and by doing so they are denying that beyond concepts there is the Ultimately Real. That is absurd. There is no denying Ultimate Reality even if its nature remains a mystery. All one can do is deny the mental concepts about Ultimate Reality.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26742573 - 06/13/20 07:44 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Are there any symbols you are particularly fond of?
I like mandalas and flower of life etc.
What do you think fractals represent in universal symbolism?
Yin, yang as well..!
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#26743039 - 06/13/20 11:56 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Also whats your view about the differences between common symbols and archetypes..?
That is to say.. I think archetypes are a TYPE of symbol.. but other than that I don't know..
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#26743262 - 06/14/20 03:08 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I see fractals as representative of David Bohm's Implicate-Explicate Order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicate_and_explicate_order I cannot answer your question as to personal preference because it asks my ego to weight the importance of different symbols based on preferred intellectual concepts or aesthetics. When I was 23 and in seminary or a year before that I found the Catholic crucifix to be the most potent. I had been doodling them at the end of high school and had a couple of bizarre dreams about Christ crucified (on a stairwell in my freshman dorm where I offered and He refused morphine). The central Western archetype of the Self was prominent at that point while my personality in its late adolescence and it had an opportunity to develop further around it. Before that the mandalic wheels I saw in the sky on trips were magick circles to my interpretive mind because that was where I was at, at the level of the Astral Triangle if I was to map my life on the Qabalistic Tree of Life glyph. Between magick and Christian mysticism, those same wheels in the sky were interpreted as Eastern mandalas because that was where I was at.
Now the question of preference still aims directly at my ego and while my ego is still here orchestrating your answer it doesn't choose symbols, it merely recognizes them. When my intellectual mind was into alchemy it favored alchemical symbolism. When it was into Vajrayana Buddhism, Hindu Yoga, or any other tradition, those symbols were preferred. Now, all I can honestly say is that I appreciate symbolism. I surround myself at home with all manner of symbolic art. The only thing I can say is that at the end of the day I am a Western man and Western symbolism is more likely to manifest in my psyche with greater emotion than Eastern symbols do. If I was in a bombarded foxhole I would be more likely to pray than to wax either detached or fatalistic.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26743394 - 06/14/20 05:31 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: There is only One Ultimate Reality and it does not matter if one calls It YHWH, Allah, Brahman, The Great Spirit or whatever. But when people refer to the "Invisible Man in the Sky," or "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" they are mocking a category of being, even in its manifestation as a mere God-concept, and by doing so they are denying that beyond concepts there is the Ultimately Real. That is absurd. There is no denying Ultimate Reality even if its nature remains a mystery. All one can do is deny the mental concepts about Ultimate Reality.
Love how you put it there.
I've often thought that there actually are no atheists. There are those who choose Science as their God, but no atheists.
Bill Maher, to continue to make an example of him (because why not?), is one of the most hilarious to me because he will defend the non-existence of God as vehemently as those he mocks defend the existence.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: Forrester]
#26744200 - 06/14/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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This saying by theologian Paul Tillich would only confuse the stoned-yet-rigid Bill Maher. There is that saying about there being 'no atheists in foxholes' because if it looks like you're gonna get blown up that special something kicks in. And whereas Buddhism is called an atheistic religion that does not mean there is no Summum Bonum or Ultimate Reality, it only means that Ultimate Reality is not conceived of as being a person. I surmise that Buddha seized upon the impersonal concept of Brahman, Nirguna Brahman and rejected the personal Saguna Brahman. He then used the prefix Nir- which is a negation in the word Nirvana which is often translated as a cessation of desire. But it is not annihilation. Tibetan Buddhists do pray to deities and prayer is common to the average Mahayana Buddhist even though this contradicts Buddha's teaching not to rely on grace, the gods, or God. He never denied the Reality called God but would not discuss that which was impossible to discuss. Plus, he'd defer from cosmological questions about creation/destruction and repeat that he only taught a means for the cessation of suffering.
Similarly, God my be no-thing but God is not nothing. It is just that for materialists and secular existentialists there is ONLY existence and they do not know of a substratum of pure Being when existence emerges. I remember in the late 60s when buttons were popular in head shops there were two contradictory statements: "Essence Precedes Existence" and "Existence Precedes Essence." Ultimately these two philosophies of ontology and existentialism harken back to Plato and Aristotle, respectively.
Scientism is a surrogate religion, an idolatry actually insofar as no transcendental 'horizon' exists from which creation emerged. Mystery is relegated to current human ignorance and there is the tacit assumption that everything is capable of human comprehension eventually.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26744523 - 06/14/20 05:23 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Markos.. have you ever wondered if a new religion would be created out of all religions.. the tenants that are real..and the discarding of things that are false..?
So like it would include reincarnation.. Prayer Mandala Assana (yoga)
Deity worship pagan style..
Christ worship.. Buddha worship..
God as a singular deity worship..
Tao as the law..
Moral duty and imperative
Magic.. and miracles..
Diet based on healthiness and not superstition..
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#26744527 - 06/14/20 05:24 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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And I'll add science to this religion..
But also a healthy respect for the sacred..
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is feeling good the only measure of a good life? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#26747385 - 06/15/20 07:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Just wondering, but do you know that you can edit your post instead of making a second post to add something on? I do all the time by clicking on edit. That aside, Mani attempted to include Zoroastrianism, Christianity, and Buddhism in a single religion called Manichaeism. It was formed in the 3rd century BCE and lasted to the end of the 14th century in China. What you're asking is approximated by the Unitarian Universalist Church, NOT to be confused with the Universalist Church which is a Christian church whose theology is simply not trinitarian. The U.U. Church includes all of the things you mentioned and no doubt more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
As for diet, I cannot get behind the Peoples of the Book (Judaism, Islam, Christianity) wholeheartedly because their diets and celebrations include the slaughter of millions of animals. So what if Jews and Muslims don't butcher pigs (lucky pigs) for idiosyncratic reasons, or that Jews don't eat traif, bottom-feeding crustaceans, or mice (wtf eats mice anyway)? The rife Anthropocentrism that regards non-human mammals as mere food is callous and horrible to me. Organized religions with rare exception have been the cause of much of the wars and atrocities this world has seen: crusades, jihads, persecutions, pogroms, genocide. In the USA psychopathic con artists become multimillionaires of mega-churches and religious organizations do not pay taxes. What ever happened to the separation of church and state in this country?
If anything, religions ought to become less organized in social structure, more individual and less collective because tribal affiliation for most people pits 'us' against 'them.' A LOT of people are still concrete in their thinking. Concrete Operational Thinking is a developmental stage that LOTS of chronological adults never transcend for the higher stage of Formal Operational Thinking. The point is that religious writ is understood concretely, historically not mythologically. So a Christian who 'believes' in Christ crucified, died, resurrected, and ascended meets a Muslim who while recognizing that Jesus is a prophet of God does not 'believe' that he was crucified at all! What is the going to be the outcome of this encounter? These souls will not grok that what is important is the human development that practicing these religions might elicit. No. They are going to take their myths literally/historically/concretely in most cases and end up bickering, fighting, and killing each other over the contradiction. Another organized religion will be just another player in the field of mammalian tribal competition.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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