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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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defund the police. 3
#26729541 - 06/08/20 06:02 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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please take a few minutes and watch this in its entirety. it is powerful
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
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Defunding the police is a stupid idea. It doesn't change anything. It just makes the state police take over, and they're not going to do anything any different or better than local police were before. It's totally pointless, and I highly suspect that some people are selling that for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the protests. I think some people are trying to co-opt the protests to sell this pointless idea.
Defunding the police accomplishes nothing, it changes nothing, it will not make policing better nor will it reduce police misconduct or violence.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Re: defund the police. [Re: nooneman] 2
#26729565 - 06/08/20 06:13 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Defunding the police is a stupid idea. It doesn't change anything. It just makes the state police take over, and they're not going to do anything any different or better than local police were before. It's totally pointless, and I highly suspect that some people are selling that for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the protests. I think some people are trying to co-opt the protests to sell this pointless idea.
Defunding the police accomplishes nothing, it changes nothing, it will not make policing better nor will it reduce police misconduct or violence.
Agreed.
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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please watch the video.
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sui
I love you.



Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,853
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Re: defund the police. [Re: nooneman]
#26729595 - 06/08/20 06:23 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Defunding the police is a stupid idea. It doesn't change anything. It just makes the state police take over, and they're not going to do anything any different or better than local police were before. It's totally pointless, and I highly suspect that some people are selling that for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the protests. I think some people are trying to co-opt the protests to sell this pointless idea.
Defunding the police accomplishes nothing, it changes nothing, it will not make policing better nor will it reduce police misconduct or violence.
well we will get a chance to see if minneapolis does it.
-------------------- "There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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Seriously_trippin
Cosmic Guru Ganesh



Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 14,471
Last seen: 31 minutes, 55 seconds
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Yeah defunding the police won't solve racism it's stupid the police chief in flint michigan that put down his riot gear to march with protectors shoe until now alot of good cops were standing up. Now we are threatening good cops and bad cops. Imagine what kind of 911 wait time you're going to have, how much violence will increase. Rapes and murders still happen enough that it seems like common so not to slash budgets in half in some kind of desperation effort to change the system but not knowing how.
I just don't agree with dedunsing the police right now to solve police violence
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Edited by Seriously_trippin (06/08/20 06:24 PM)
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gopher
Coffee Bean Extraordinaire


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they need more funding, to be spent on training
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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i dont have all the facts or statistics, but the main focus is to reallocate the money into better, more efficient services. of course it will not fix things overnight, but im willing to bet that we can help more people instead of putting them in jail.
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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i dare you all to watch the video. i am not challenging anyone's opinions, but rather i wish to acknowledge that things can be done differently.
of course this is a difficult topic and there are many persuading points of view for or against defunding the police and it is important to address them all. it is equally important to address the common issues police officers face on the job daily.
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Re: defund the police. [Re: gopher] 1
#26729638 - 06/08/20 06:38 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
gopher said: they need more funding, to be spent on training
not sure if the strike through the comma is visible but less funding into militarization of equipment and more of that existing funding into training
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sui
I love you.



Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,853
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Quote:
split_by_nine said: i dare you all to watch the video. i am not challenging anyone's opinions, but rather i wish to acknowledge that things can be done differently.
of course this is a difficult topic and there are many persuading points of view for or against defunding the police and it is important to address them all. it is equally important to address the common issues police officers face on the job daily.
I watched it.
-------------------- "There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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CookieCrumbs
Fucked off to the pub


Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,146
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Re: defund the police. [Re: sui] 3
#26729652 - 06/08/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'd rather they uhh.. just use the funds to actually help people instead of getting ready to fight them.
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Free time is the only time
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Quote:
CookieCrumbs said: I'd rather they uhh.. just use the funds to actually help people instead of getting ready to fight them.
i agree. but most police officers are just average people. the money could be better used to pay professionals to organize community wellness programs, especially in impoverished communities where they need it the most.
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
split_by_nine said:
Quote:
CookieCrumbs said: I'd rather they uhh.. just use the funds to actually help people instead of getting ready to fight them.
i agree. but most police officers are just average people. the money could be better used to pay professionals to organize community wellness programs, especially in impoverished communities where they need it the most.
but if the police are not trained in a way that can meaningfully get people into those programs rather than killing them then the most at-risk members of those impoverished communities may not make it in to the services
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. [Re: Tantrika]
#26729698 - 06/08/20 06:56 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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do you think its true that many police officers take the job because they want to arrest people or do you think they take the job because they want to help people?
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
split_by_nine said: do you think its true that many police officers take the job because they want to arrest people or do you think they take the job because they want to help people?
do not think any take the job because they want to arrest people the ones that take the job because they want to kill people and get away with it accept having to deal with arrests the ones that take the job because they want to help people and make a positive change in their community accept having to deal with arrests
better training would help weed out the bad ones and enable the good ones to resist falling into complacent acceptance of the bad ones
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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i wish it were black and white and we could come up with simple solutions to complex problems.. but that is simply not the case. its obvious that the old way of policing is not exactly protecting everyone and some things need to change. im not advocating for anarchy. i want to live in a civil, peaceful community. yes i know there are criminals and bad people out there, but they too need help. they too need guidance and direction. putting people in jail is not the be-all, end-all solution.
for starters, the war on drugs needs to end yesterday.
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. [Re: Tantrika]
#26729718 - 06/08/20 07:03 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tantrika said:
Quote:
split_by_nine said: do you think its true that many police officers take the job because they want to arrest people or do you think they take the job because they want to help people?
do not think any take the job because they want to arrest people the ones that take the job because they want to kill people and get away with it accept having to deal with arrests the ones that take the jobe because they want to help people and make a positive change in their community accept having to deal with arrests
better training would help weed out the bad ones and enable the good ones to resist falling into complacent acceptance of the bad ones
yes better training is a great idea. but maybe we need to create organizations that focus on helping people without the threat of arrest or violence
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
split_by_nine said:
Quote:
Tantrika said:
Quote:
split_by_nine said: do you think its true that many police officers take the job because they want to arrest people or do you think they take the job because they want to help people?
do not think any take the job because they want to arrest people the ones that take the job because they want to kill people and get away with it accept having to deal with arrests the ones that take the jobe because they want to help people and make a positive change in their community accept having to deal with arrests
better training would help weed out the bad ones and enable the good ones to resist falling into complacent acceptance of the bad ones
yes better training is a great idea. but maybe we need to create organizations that focus on helping people without the threat of arrest or violence
yeah, and to be clear am in agreement with that my "but" with regards to the police was simply that with those services in place the police also need to be empowered to deal with things in non-violent manners and to be educated enough to help people access those services the police get called to a lot of cases where arrest and jail are not at all suited to dealing with what is going on but it is the only set of marginal skills they have been provided
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
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One thing that would solve a lot of issue is if cops didn’t go fucking bananas over drugs that aren’t a problem. I bet at least 50%, if not more, of what they do involves only drugs. Make their fuckin job as obsolete as possible..
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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cannabinated



Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 14,743
Loc: Outside
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Re: defund the police. [Re: Amanita86]
#26729731 - 06/08/20 07:10 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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BLM said fuck bernie... many of these organizations are fronts
give ur money to the panthers
been seeing too many yt's handing over money to the establishment
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 day, 8 hours
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Stop the war on drugs and save tons of resources. You could have less police, less DA's, less courts, less prisons and less probation.
https://www.drugwarfacts.org/node/235
Almost all of drug arrests (86%) are still for drug possession. And 40% of drug arrests for marijuana.
So of the 10,300,000 arrest in 2018, 1,650,000 were drug related with most just simple possession.
We could cut police budgets by 33% by just ending the out of date drug laws.
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. [Re: Tantrika] 1
#26729735 - 06/08/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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yes, exactly. the police definitely need more skills, but also more people suited to apply those skills. i dont think a police officer should be expected to handle every situation, but they are the only ones we call in any emergency.
the police are trained to be ready for violence at all times. such is why they have guns and bulletproof vests. there are very little de-escalation training seminars compared to the number of seminars on how to effectively subdue a person of interest.
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. [Re: qman] 1
#26729746 - 06/08/20 07:15 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: Stop the war on drugs and save tons of resources. You could have less police, less DA's, less courts, less prisons and less probation
100% yes
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. [Re: Amanita86]
#26729800 - 06/08/20 07:33 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: One thing that would solve a lot of issue is if cops didn’t go fucking bananas over drugs that aren’t a problem. I bet at least 50%, if not more, of what they do involves only drugs. Make their fuckin job as obsolete as possible..
agreed. whats more bananas is that a lot of police departments depend on arrest quotas to retain funding and will do anything to hit their marks.. including planting drugs on innocent people.
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qman
Stranger

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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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i dont beleive its naive to imagine that many of the leaders managing police departments encourage officers to arrest as many people as they can.. whether those people did anything wrong or not.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Quote:
split_by_nine said: i dont beleive its naive to imagine that many of the leaders managing police departments encourage officers to arrest as many people as they can.. whether those people did anything wrong or not.
Arrest and contact quotas are commonplace.
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. [Re: qman] 1
#26729842 - 06/08/20 07:49 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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it wasnt too long ago that police in the USA were lawfully allowed to harass people of color. then soon after the civil rights movement helped to extinguish that behavior the US govt created "the war on drugs" to again lawfully harass and imprison people in communities that were predominantly non-white.
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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I have an idea. Now this may sound absolutely ludicrous and psycho, but here it is. Why don't the police force(s)/stations around the entire USA use all that fucking drug money they bust people with? how about all the fucking cash the DEA has in a locker somewhere? They can use that to train the policepeople.
I also saw a bill drafted up for CO and it has points in it that are absolutely brilliant and I would vote yes on it. 90% of it anyway. Also I have read that they keep an IQ score low to keep people from changing jobs etc...it's a racket and is ingrained in the USA mindset/average Joe. It's going to take MAJOR reform and such to even begin training new people for that job. I would love to see changes in it. Maybe this is the beginning.
Also nixon was a dirtbag racist son of a fucking bitch asshole bastard! 
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ShroomerInTheRye
Clit Commander



Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 13,036
Loc: Themyscira
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Quote:
split_by_nine said: i dont have all the facts or statistics, but the main focus is to reallocate the money into better, more efficient services. of course it will not fix things overnight, but im willing to bet that we can help more people instead of putting them in jail.
I had this argument with a friend of mine this morning. I told her defunding the police does not mean abolishing the police. We still need police, but instead of buying them grenade launchers, we should buy them uniforms and maybe put some of that money (OUR MONEY) into better mental health screening.
She refused to see anything other than "YOU WANT TO DISBAND THE POLICE" and no amount of evidence I brought forth was looked at. To her credit, she at least admitted she wasn't going to read any facts.
No, I'm not a liberal. I'm not a conservative. I'm sick and tired of the bullshit extremes in this country and why the fuck we can't ever compromise on anything. Everyone has to be right. Everyone individually believes their way is the only way, and if you try to upset that balance, they lose their god damned minds. Most people can't handle having their perceived reality challenged.
But please....let's go ahead and continue with a system that's not working. It's been craptastic up until now, why change a thing?
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<-- Clicky Clicky
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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amen
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spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



Registered: 08/15/11
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Yeah Fuck their new anti tank vehicles that they will never realistically use....
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Texas Honey Badger
No fucks given



Registered: 07/12/18
Posts: 57,773
Loc: Spicemaster Texas
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Quote:
tyrannicalrex said: I have an idea. Now this may sound absolutely ludicrous and psycho, but here it is. Why don't the police force(s)/stations around the entire USA use all that fucking drug money they bust people with? how about all the fucking cash the DEA has in a locker somewhere?
All that money ends up in their bank accts
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Some call me Paw 🐾
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chutney
slappin' the whiners
Registered: 07/26/13
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Last seen: 11 months, 8 days
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defund police is wack
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. [Re: chutney] 1
#26732429 - 06/09/20 07:25 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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cops getting away with breaking the laws they are employed to enforce is pretty wack too
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Quote:
tyrannicalrex said: It's going to take MAJOR reform and such to even begin training new people for that job. I would love to see changes in it. Maybe this is the beginning.
i like to think that it is the beginning. people are tired of being bullied by police and others are sick of watching it happen
Quote:
Also nixon was a dirtbag racist son of a fucking bitch asshole bastard!  
most of the cops ive encountered are exactly this.
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ShroomerInTheRye
Clit Commander



Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 13,036
Loc: Themyscira
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That's thanks to a legal doctrine known as Qualified Immunity. It's a legal doctrine meant to prevent people from suing cops frivolously as well as giving them some breathing room in doing their jobs. Unfortunately, it makes it harder to get justice because not only do you have to prove the law was broken, you must provide legal precedent. In lots of these cases, there is no precedent.
SCOTUS is looking into this doctrine now, and lemme tell you....when Clarence Thomas, the Cato Institute, the ACLU, and the NAACP are in favor of reviewing this, there is something definitely, completely, wholly wrong.
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/08/870165744/supreme-court-weighs-qualified-immunity-for-police-accused-of-misconduct
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<-- Clicky Clicky
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
split_by_nine said: cops getting away with breaking the laws they are employed to enforce is pretty wack too
omgggggggggg
tantrum time 
was talking in discord last night about the protests and how attractive women have more capacity to defend other protestors from cops because cops are less likely to assault them publicly then made an off-hand comment about how the situation with protests was a strange flip side to how women in isolated circumstances are more likely to be sexually assaulted in private and received a link regarding cops and immunity that straight up upset me
Quote:
Anna was sitting in the parked car with two friends when a charcoal gray van pulled up and flashlight beams momentarily blinded her. The 18-year-old had grown up in south Brooklyn and spent many Friday nights like this driving around the city with friends, looking for places to hang out away from home. On this night, though, September 15, 2017, sometime between 7:30 p.m. and 8 p.m., she crossed paths with the cops.
There were two of them, both plainclothes detectives over 6 feet tall and powerfully built, flashing their badges and asking questions. There was weed in the front cupholder, and soon the detectives ordered the three occupants out of the car. As Anna later recalled, the detectives handcuffed her and told her friends, both young men, they were free to go. Then, she said they led her — a slender woman just over 5 feet tall — into the back of the unmarked police van with tinted windows.
Inside, Anna said the detectives took turns raping her in the backseat as the van cruised the dark streets and as she sat handcuffed, crying and repeatedly telling them “No.” Between assaults, she said, the van pulled over so the cops could switch drivers. Less than an hour later, a few minutes’ drive from where it all began, the detectives dropped Anna off on the side of the road, a quarter-mile from a police station, surveillance footage shows. She stood on the sidewalk, her arms wrapped around her chest, looking up and down the dimly lit street and pacing slowly before borrowing a cell phone from a passerby to call a friend.
The cops made no arrest, issued no citation, filed no paperwork about the stop. Hours later, Anna and her mother went to a hospital, where Anna told nurses two detectives had sexually assaulted her, according to hospital records. Semen collected in Anna’s rape kit matched the DNA of detectives Eddie Martins, 37, and Richard Hall, 33, of the Brooklyn South narcotics unit. Both have since resigned from the force and been charged with rape.
Anna assumed it was a simple case: Two cops had sex with a woman in their custody in the middle of their shift.
When a Facebook friend questioned whether there was enough evidence to dispute the officers’ claim that the sex was consensual, Anna wrote back, “Listen man it doesn't fucking matter they’re on duty police officers its a fucking violation these are the people we call for help not to get fucked.”
But Anna didn’t know that in New York, there is no law specifically stating that it is illegal for police officers or sheriff’s deputies in the field to have sex with someone in their custody. It is one of 35 states where armed law enforcement officers can evade sexual assault charges by claiming that such an encounter — from groping to intercourse — was consensual, according to a BuzzFeed News review of every state legal code.


already felt unsafe in Canada as a trans woman just because of statistics but this is apparently still a thing in a majority of states?
Quote:
In recent years, some states have closed this loophole, applying to cops the same rules already in place nationwide for probation officers and prison and jail guards. Oregon did so in 2005, Alaska in 2013, and Arizona in 2015. Most have not, partly because few people realize the loophole exists, and partly because it has been politically unpopular to push laws that target cops and anger their powerful unions.
Of at least 158 law enforcement officers charged since 2006 with sexual assault, sexual battery, or unlawful sexual contact with somebody under their control, at least 26 have been acquitted or had charges dropped based on the consent defense, according to my review of a Buffalo News database of more than 700 law enforcement officers accused of sexual misconduct.
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. [Re: Tantrika] 2
#26732637 - 06/09/20 08:33 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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thats insane. that story made me sick to my stomach. but im not surprised. cops get away with murder, even if its caught on film.
and fuck.. this happened 3 years ago?? a bad cop is one thing, but this is way beyond that. words cant descrive how evil those two men are. and i hate calling them men because men they certainly are not.
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,332
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I will check out the video. The police force needs to End! Like get rid of it completely! Lets start by disarming the police like the UK does. They have it right with that. Good job UK. Then put mandetory prison death sentences for cops killing innocent peopls. Thats real Justice right there.
-------------------- "What you must understand is that your physical dimension affects everyone in the higher dimensions as well. All things are interconnected. All things are One. Therefore, if one dimension is broken or out of balance, then all other dimensions will experience repercussions." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020 The New Golden Age by James Carwin PROJECT BLUE BOOK ANALYSIS! (312 pages!) | Psychedelics & UFOs | Ready to Contact UFOs? | The Source on Mushrooms | Trippy Gematrix | Dj TeknoLogical | Fentanyl Test Kits R.I.P. Big Worm || The Start of the Ascension Process was 2020. Welcome to the Next Great Era of Earth 🌎🌍🌏
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
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What does the numerology say about going wild west up in this bitch?
--------------------
Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,332
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 17 seconds
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Re: defund the police. [Re: Amanita86]
#26732974 - 06/09/20 11:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I havent checked it out yet but George Floyd has a Numerology-Gematria of 119, reverse of 911 (Police). Its a start of a Revolution.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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You can’t expect a Thread like this to be fair or appropriately balanced, you just can’t.
Knock knock.
Who’s there?
Police...
Police who?
Pu-lease try being objective!
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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cant expect it to be fair to whom?
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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quick poll time
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,332
Loc: The Inexpressible...
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said: I havent checked it out yet but George Floyd has a Numerology-Gematria of 119, reverse of 911 (Police). Its a start of a Revolution.
"George Floyd" now has 20203 total searches: https://www.gematrix.org/?word=georgefloyd
2020, here we go!!!
Im never happy to see a Cop ever!
End Police Corruption! Dissolve the Police State!
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 2 hours
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Re: defund the police. [Re: nooneman]
#26733147 - 06/10/20 01:12 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Defunding the police is a stupid idea. It doesn't change anything. It just makes the state police take over, and they're not going to do anything any different or better than local police were before. It's totally pointless, and I highly suspect that some people are selling that for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the protests. I think some people are trying to co-opt the protests to sell this pointless idea.
Defunding the police accomplishes nothing, it changes nothing, it will not make policing better nor will it reduce police misconduct or violence.
Considering it's ultimately the state most of these issues are sourced from, it's unsurprising that the larger portions of the population continue to miss the forest for the trees, and attack the wrong head of the hydra here.
All this does is create and reinforce more of what society is claiming is wrong ATM.
Racism is just a bad idea until someone with a monopoly on force is controlling the situation.
This is precisely why more people should be armed IMHO.
When you need help in seconds, the police will always be minutes out.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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well there is a lot to unpack here. i typically enjoy your posts LS but that one is scary to me.
attack the wrong head of the hydra? people who support the police are usually the same people who are not profiled and found suspicious for having a particular skin color and no other reason at all.
racism is just a bad idea? by "someone with a monopoly" are you referring to the us govt?
more people should be armed why? america is armed to the teeth and yet they have the highest prison population of the entire world combined. what does that say about america?
when people need help in seconds, they should call an ambulance.. not the police
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 2 hours
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Quote:
split_by_nine said: well there is a lot to unpack here. i typically enjoy your posts LS but that one is scary to me.
attack the wrong head of the hydra? people who support the police are usually the same people who are not profiled and found suspicious for having a particular skin color and no other reason at all.
racism is just a bad idea? by "someone with a monopoly" are you referring to the us govt?
more people should be armed why? america is armed to the teeth and yet they have the highest prison population of the entire world combined. what does that say about america?
when people need help in seconds, they should call an ambulance.. not the police
You enjoy most of my posts because they don't question what you're taking to heart as an actual model for reality.
You literally just made a huge assumption regarding police profiling, which explains why you're approaching everything I just said from the angle that you are. I'm white and I've been anti state and police for over ten years.
You cannot be anti-police/the state AND anti-gun.
If you THINK this is a valid position, you are pro violence via criminals who do not give a shit about laws like you do.
Also, who will enforce those laws if there are no police? You think society will just continue like a 4-way stop with people consensually going with the flow? Why is there crime now despite police presence?
This also isn't an argument for police at all; what the fuck do people think is going to replace police to protect them? You'll need a gun or you're a sitting duck. This is why I keep my mouth shut. Everyone and their mother acts like this is brand new to question the state. Half the people waking up to this shit still think libertarians = white supremacy conservatives. Despite, you know, being for everyone being armed and having the ability to keep from getting killed by violence/the police/state.
What is racism minus the violence behind it? Can you research and accept this answer honestly or will it trigger you?
Who has the monopoly on violence? Can you research and accept this answer honestly or will it trigger you?
Who has more encounters with the police, regardless of skin color? Can you research and accept this answer honestly or will it trigger you?
Who are the most violent group/demographic that has no problem killing themselves, as well as everyone else around them? Can you research and accept this answer honestly or will it trigger you?
Also you missed the point again regarding help in seconds. Good luck calling that ambulance when you're shot dead in your home at 2:43 PM by a home invader because you think guns are bad.
Enjoy the decline!
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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racism without the violence is still mistreating others. are you saying racism is harmless if no one gets physically assaulted?
i dont think guns are bad. i know they are bad..
and it proves my point if youre hypothetically saying i will be shot dead by one lol
who has more encounters with the police? well hmm.. i wonder.. certainly it has nothing at all to do with discrimination. they just deserve to be hassled by the man. bravo.
who are the most violent? well historically speaking, christians.
no problem killing themselves or ones around them? which people are you suggesting here?
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 2 hours
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Freedom of speech means you can call me the most racist shit you want, but it's up to me to give a shit about what you're saying. This implies emotional responsibility. Which, judging by most people in 2020, is a rare commodity.
"Violence is bad, so let's avoid it at all costs by indirectly creating the incentive for more violence via the laws enforced by the police that we're trying to defund because they've got too much power."
Sounds like an awesome plan let me know how that works out for you.
I hope those evil guns don't walk into your house all by themselves and cause some crime on you!
Hell there won't be any guns at all by your logic, right?
So if someone gets one illegally, that must mean it didn't happen because the police you defunded are going to enforce criminals and make sure they follow the no-guns-laws, right?
Can you also draw me a circular square, while you're at it?
The rest of us will be here occupying the reality the rest of the SJW's think they've discovered and are saving us all from.
Enjoy the decline.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: Freedom of speech means you can call me the most racist shit you want, but it's up to me to give a shit about what you're saying.
wow dude. just wow. as long as you live in america its okay to say and do racist shit. good job.
police power isnt overwhelming. the abuse of that power is.
you just lost a friend. but you dont care because its your right as an american to not give a shit about anyone.
enjoy the decline of what? the only thing i see in decline is your compassion.
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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LS
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 42 minutes
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Quote:
You cannot be anti-police/the state AND anti-gun.
Says you. I get the impression regardless of the position on any issue, you think guns are necessary. Everything you have posted is a glorification of guns. Guns are the answer to all our problems, including guns. Fucking retarded Stone Age mentality. Frankly I have no idea how people get to be so demented.
I’ve made it 51 years without ever having the thought “i wish I had a gun right now.” Never needed one. Lived in the suburbs and the inner city. It’s kinda pathetic how grown men feel so emasculated without one.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (06/10/20 02:36 AM)
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
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Hey guys, it just occurred to me that with all the defund stuff going around, maybe we could get people to support defunding the DEA. Just the DEA, not anything else. How cool would that be? Probably never happen, but like, if we're gonna defund stuff, let's at least defund something that'll make a difference!
Let's start by defunding the DEA, and then stop after we defund the DEA.
Edited by nooneman (06/10/20 03:02 AM)
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sui
I love you.


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,853
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Re: defund the police. [Re: nooneman] 2
#26733295 - 06/10/20 03:02 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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That is implied by ending the drug war. Yes lets do that.
-------------------- "There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,332
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 17 seconds
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: nooneman]
#26733326 - 06/10/20 03:34 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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The DEA and the Police are basically the same thing. DEA is just specialized cops basically. Yes, they are a seperate branch but its all part of the same "Enforcement" Police State.
Since Police are KILLING people, defunding or better yet Decommissioning the Police Force is top priority for me.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 42 minutes
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: LogicaL Chaos] 1
#26733351 - 06/10/20 04:05 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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federal law enforcement generally does not have the same issues with excessive use of force as state and local cops. A lot of that has to do with the amount of training and the fact that federal law enforcement do not generally patrol territory like cops on a beat. The secret service and park police do some of that work, but only in specific areas. The number of people killed by federal officers is minuscule compared to local and state police.
The one exception is customs and border patrol. Those guys are corrupt as hell.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: koods]
#26733702 - 06/10/20 07:50 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Customs and DEA should be re-appropriated to help addicts in facilities. Right after they get rid of those positions/jobs/functions that the DEA and customs do. The facilities should be bought and paid for by the millionaires/billionaires as well.
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Seriously_trippin
Cosmic Guru Ganesh



Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 14,471
Last seen: 31 minutes, 55 seconds
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#26735729 - 06/10/20 11:16 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said: The DEA and the Police are basically the same thing. DEA is just specialized cops basically. Yes, they are a seperate branch but its all part of the same "Enforcement" Police State.
Since Police are KILLING people, defunding or better yet Decommissioning the Police Force is top priority for me.
People kill people more often then police kill people fersure. I don't think you want to see what it'd be like without police. If you're not protesting the changing of specific codes or saying EXACTLY who'd get the money and how that would reduce crime or injustice from defunding police. Otherwise you're talking about revenge not justice against cops. We are oppressed so now we should oppress you? You can't tell me cops are worse then murderers,child rapists, domestic violence it's all not going to go away so how do you solve it? If you don't have an answer you might be destroying society with no real plan to rebuild it.
-------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
split_by_nine said: thats insane. that story made me sick to my stomach. but im not surprised. cops get away with murder, even if its caught on film.
and fuck.. this happened 3 years ago?? a bad cop is one thing, but this is way beyond that. words cant descrive how evil those two men are. and i hate calling them men because men they certainly are not.
Yeah, it is just sick killers in the police force have the system on their side and that can be explained away by them needing to fight killers
but even rapists? under what circumstances should a cop providing a claim of consent override the victims statement of non-consent and how could it ever be considered beneficial to law and justice to allow police to have sex with people they have arrested to begin with
let alone in a majority of the States, rather than an obscure handful
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: ...You can't tell me cops are worse then...domestic violence...
back in the 90s they were worse for domestic violence than the general population
Quote:
Two studies have found that at least 40% of police officer families experience domestic violence, (1, 2) in contrast to 10% of families in the general population.(3) A third study of older and more experienced officers found a rate of 24% (4), indicating that domestic violence is 2-4 times more common among police families than American families in general.
http://womenandpolicing.com/violenceFS.asp
but apparently nowadays it is more difficult to perform such studies to see what current rates compare at, and am not able to find any real recent data
wonder if it is higher, lower, or about the same
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
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How is Seattle working out guys?
--------------------
Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Seriously_trippin
Cosmic Guru Ganesh



Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 14,471
Last seen: 31 minutes, 55 seconds
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Tantrika]
#26735792 - 06/10/20 11:54 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tantrika said:
Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: ...You can't tell me cops are worse then...domestic violence...
back in the 90s they were worse for domestic violence than the general population
Quote:
Two studies have found that at least 40% of police officer families experience domestic violence, (1, 2) in contrast to 10% of families in the general population.(3) A third study of older and more experienced officers found a rate of 24% (4), indicating that domestic violence is 2-4 times more common among police families than American families in general.
http://womenandpolicing.com/violenceFS.asp
but apparently nowadays it is more difficult to perform such studies to see what current rates compare at, and am not able to find any real recent data
wonder if it is higher, lower, or about the same

Okay do you think domestic violence,rape,murder,theft and all the other crimes committed by the real hardened criminals surpass police violence alone?
-------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Seriously_trippin said:
Quote:
Tantrika said:
Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: ...You can't tell me cops are worse then...domestic violence...
back in the 90s they were worse for domestic violence than the general population
Quote:
Two studies have found that at least 40% of police officer families experience domestic violence, (1, 2) in contrast to 10% of families in the general population.(3) A third study of older and more experienced officers found a rate of 24% (4), indicating that domestic violence is 2-4 times more common among police families than American families in general.
http://womenandpolicing.com/violenceFS.asp
but apparently nowadays it is more difficult to perform such studies to see what current rates compare at, and am not able to find any real recent data
wonder if it is higher, lower, or about the same

Okay do you think domestic violence,rape,murder,theft and all the other crimes committed by the real hardened criminals surpass police violence alone?
False dichotomy -- there are plenty of real hardened criminals in the police forces; George Floyd was not that cops first kill, and without citizen intervention it would not have been his last
Think that real hardened criminals should be punished including the ones in the police rather than a particular gang of them them having legal protections to drive around taking turns raping a woman before they go home and beat their wife and kids
how about you?
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Seriously_trippin
Cosmic Guru Ganesh



Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 14,471
Last seen: 31 minutes, 55 seconds
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Tantrika]
#26735835 - 06/11/20 12:35 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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You say you want real criminals punished. How exactly do you catch these criminals without firepower that equals theirs? Serious question. There's no question police need to be better vetted,better trained and disciplined stricter but all of that will NEVER happen if we say we want the system to change and also want to fire officers and take their guns away. We can't have our cake and eat it to with this one. You either deal with emboldened criminals or settle for meaningful policy changes that would actually solve problems instead of using it as revenge
-------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: You say you want real criminals punished. How exactly do you catch these criminals without firepower that equals theirs? Serious question.
Good point George Floyd's killer was from a highly militarized and organized gang think the best solution is for citizens to have more free access to more powerful firearms or replace the whole corrupt system with something fresh and better regulated
Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: There's no question police need to be better vetted,better trained and disciplined stricter but all of that will NEVER happen if we say we want the system to change and also want to fire officers and take their guns away. We can't have our cake and eat it to with this one. You either deal with emboldened criminals or settle for meaningful policy changes that would actually solve problems instead of using it as revenge
What meaningful policy changes would you suggest to end an arms race with citizens where a particular gang has access to military-grade tech and the freedom to flout laws
the police system needs such sweeping and substantial changes as to make the prospect of defunding them and starting from scratch easier and more efficient
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Seriously_trippin
Cosmic Guru Ganesh



Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 14,471
Last seen: 31 minutes, 55 seconds
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Tantrika]
#26735867 - 06/11/20 01:12 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well Chauvin had 12 complaints and was disciplined twice,he was also trained to put his knee in that area because they have shit training. Then they could come up with mandatory stress tests for field officer. There's policy changes that could effect policing in a positive way
-------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: Well Chauvin had 12 complaints and was disciplined twice,he was also trained to put his knee in that area because they have shit training. Then they could come up with mandatory stress tests for field officer. There's policy changes that could effect policing in a positive way
the goal of changing things in a positive way is a good one
but how long do you think it will take pass each policy change, let alone get through all by slowly going through one after another
something about needing a full engine rebuild rather than a series of tune ups I can't remember how that goes
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Seriously_trippin
Cosmic Guru Ganesh



Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 14,471
Last seen: 31 minutes, 55 seconds
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Tantrika]
#26735915 - 06/11/20 02:14 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tantrika said:
Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: Well Chauvin had 12 complaints and was disciplined twice,he was also trained to put his knee in that area because they have shit training. Then they could come up with mandatory stress tests for field officer. There's policy changes that could effect policing in a positive way
the goal of changing things in a positive way is a good one
but how long do you think it will take pass each policy change, let alone get through all by slowly going through one after another
something about needing a full engine rebuild rather than a series of tune ups I can't remember how that goes 
What's the alternative path to real change?
-------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
Edited by Seriously_trippin (06/11/20 02:14 AM)
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Seriously_trippin said:
Quote:
Tantrika said:
Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: Well Chauvin had 12 complaints and was disciplined twice,he was also trained to put his knee in that area because they have shit training. Then they could come up with mandatory stress tests for field officer. There's policy changes that could effect policing in a positive way
the goal of changing things in a positive way is a good one
but how long do you think it will take pass each policy change, let alone get through all by slowly going through one after another
something about needing a full engine rebuild rather than a series of tune ups I can't remember how that goes 
What's the alternative path to real change?
trying to do it bit by bit and policy by policy
you have two paths, one that will invoke real change through a complete overhaul and an alternative that will take you nowhere
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Niffla



Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 46,482
Loc: Texas
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Tantrika] 3
#26736054 - 06/11/20 05:50 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why the hell would you dumbasses wanna defund the police? How are they supposed to make hits like this without being funded? Smh
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HAIL OUR NEW OTD KING
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mongo lloyd
Lone Free Ranger



Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 9,351
Loc: UK
Last seen: 3 days, 5 hours
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Re: defund the police. [Re: Tantrika]
#26736055 - 06/11/20 05:51 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Lefties in the UK have just started banging on about defunding the police, after 10 years of banging on about the Tories not funding the police enough fuckin clowns
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Niffla] 1
#26736092 - 06/11/20 06:28 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Niffla said: Why the hell would you dumbasses wanna defund the police? How are they supposed to make hits like this without being funded? Smh
you always find a way to make us smile Niffla
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Niffla] 1
#26736171 - 06/11/20 07:41 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Good one, damnit! I was gonna do it.
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: tyrannicalrex]
#26737023 - 06/11/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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During George Floyd protests, 13 Chicago cops lounged in a congressman's office and ate his popcorn
Quote:
U.S. Rep. Bobby Rush, D-Illinois, announced in a press conference Thursday that several officers were caught on videotape in his campaign office on the South Side.
The office had been burglarized amid looting earlier in the day, and the videotape of the officers picked up around 1 a.m. on June 1. About 13 officers were lounging in the office, including three supervisors and 10 other officers, for four or five hours, Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot said.
"They even had the unmitigated gall to go and make coffee for themselves and pop popcorn, my popcorn, in my microwave, while looters were tearing apart businesses within their sight, within their reach," Rush said. "They did not care about what was happening to business people, to this city. They didn’t care. They absolutely didn’t care."
aren't we happy our cops are paid to rest and relax during these turbulent times 
source: usa today
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine]
#26737028 - 06/11/20 03:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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That's just the ones that were caught, think about all the other ones up to no good.
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cannabinated



Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 14,743
Loc: Outside
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: tyrannicalrex]
#26737032 - 06/11/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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think of all the kernels
i wonder what hes being extorted for
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: cannabinated]
#26737050 - 06/11/20 03:16 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
cannabinated said: i wonder what hes being extorted for 
if anyone is being extorted it is the U.S. taxpayer
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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cannabinated



Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 14,743
Loc: Outside
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine]
#26737056 - 06/11/20 03:18 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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and the ukranian prime minister
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: cannabinated]
#26737059 - 06/11/20 03:19 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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which one affects you more?
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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cannabinated



Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 14,743
Loc: Outside
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine]
#26737061 - 06/11/20 03:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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ukranian prime minister
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: cannabinated]
#26737066 - 06/11/20 03:21 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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i walked into that one
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Socrateshroom
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine] 1
#26737585 - 06/11/20 06:54 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I’m sure many of you have lived in some pretty crappy areas but for those who haven’t, I can see why dismantling the police might not seem that bad to you. When real criminals are getting in a shootout while you’re on your way to school, you realize that there are some terrible things going on in the world. And if there were no cops, and a majority of the population wasn’t armed, our communities would be run by the cartels.
Split, you commented on LoadedShaman’s posts thinking he’s defending racism or that he has a gun fetish (and I believe you’re incorrect in your assessment of him).
He’s not saying racism is morally acceptable. But he is stating the fact that in the USA, freedom of speech gives you a right to be an asshole. There are certain things that the freedom of speech does not allow, such as inciting violence (Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969)) (which oddly enough people are doing). Is it morally right? Is it perfect? Probably not. But it’s a slippery slope to go down when you start to censor speech. Who will decide? Easy, whoever holds power. And I don’t want tyrannical extremist political organizations to think that they can regulate speech to further their agenda.
And that brings me to the gun point. I don’t own a gun, never have. But LoadedShaman is right. If we remove the police, and the citizenry isn’t armed, how can we expect to maintain any order? The neighborhood I grew up in would be run by some real evil people in that situation (it basically already is, but it can always get worse).
These are compromises we make. Everyone gets a voice. Some will say dumb shit. Others will say hateful crap. We must put up with it because the alternative is tyranny.
Now to comment on the topic at hand:
I’ve had my fair share of police encounters. I’ve been pulled over a lot when I was younger because I drove a beater and it looked like a “drug dealer” car. Never got a ticket, not even a warning of anything or an explanation. Just told to go home. Pissed me off. But I’ve also had great interactions with Police. I was swerving once because I was super tired (it was late at night, roads empty). Got pulled over, the police officer asked if I was ok, was I drinking etc because he saw me swerving. He realized I was stone cold sober and said “let’s get you home”. Followed me to my house to make sure I was ok then waved goodbye.
There are good, compassionate human beings in the police force. I do believe that they are overshadowed by a broken system and I believe it needs major reform. I had a friend who became a cop and he went from great guy to super toxic. The stories he told were appalling. The culture in police today is disgusting and that needs to change. But to remove it entirely and replace it with “unarmed community peace ambassadors” is ludicrous (in my opinion).
I just feel like extremism is increasing and people are dividing ever further from each other with insane ideas that feel like they’re coming from emotion rather than sound logic.
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Socrateshroom]
#26737676 - 06/11/20 07:19 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
And that brings me to the gun point. I don’t own a gun, never have. But LoadedShaman is right. If we remove the police, and the citizenry isn’t armed, how can we expect to maintain any order? The neighborhood I grew up in would be run by some real evil people in that situation (it basically already is, but it can always get worse).
you say your childhood neighborhood is run by evil people right now, so the fact there are police ready in that area does little to prevent these evil people from running things. sounds like the current police enforcement is not working.
how do we expect to maintain order without guns? the simple answer is peace. but i will get chewed out for saying that because others think guns are a necessary evil. well i dont think so and im going to live my life being peaceful to others. i will never own a gun.
Quote:
These are compromises we make. Everyone gets a voice. Some will say dumb shit. Others will say hateful crap. We must put up with it because the alternative is tyranny
this is comparable to decent cops being complicit with the atrocities committed by evil cops. because they are protected under the law so then the good cops do nothing? fuck racism. i dont care if youre exercising your 1st amendment right, hate speech is wrong and should not be tolerated.
mos ridiculous laws in every state
we have some pretty stupid laws already in place. tell me how tyrannical is it to make hate speech illegal
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Amanita86
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine] 3
#26737710 - 06/11/20 07:29 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Oh, peace you say. Don’t know why nobody ever thought to try that.....it’s genius..
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split_by_nine
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Amanita86]
#26737719 - 06/11/20 07:32 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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dismissing it is part of the problem, not the solution.
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Amanita86
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine] 2
#26737745 - 06/11/20 07:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was 14 at one time too, I get what you’re saying..
You’re coming up with solutions that are in line with this fantasy world you’ve cooked up in your head. The ideal world. Unfortunately we don’t live in that world, not on this earth. You need solutions that are in line with this world. They have to be based in this reality.... not what you want, what is..
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split_by_nine
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Amanita86]
#26737769 - 06/11/20 07:51 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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perpetuating the evil is the "real world" and im a child for thinking civility is not out of the question.
bad people are made, they are not born that way. you can learn how to be decent to people just as easily as you have already learned to be an asshole to people. frankly, it doesnt really matter to me because my time on earth is temporary. i only hope that a better world exists for those yet to be born.
but go ahead and keep living in the "real world" where violence and hate are ever present. im fine living in my imaginary world where peace is happening
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Socrateshroom
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine] 1
#26737772 - 06/11/20 07:51 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, the police in the area were subpar but they kept it from being complete chaos. Hence why I think reform is needed (but not complete removal).
The problem with “peace” is that guns already exist. I too would love peace. I too would love a world without guns. But how can you have peace if you remove guns from all the peaceful people while the evil doers refuse to give theirs up? The Pandora’s box was opened and now we need to live with the consequences.
“Hate speech is wrong and should not be tolerated”.
I agree that it’s wrong. I think that we need to educate our youth and people in general to strive to a better moral standard. But who decides when something is made illegal, as you suggest to make hate speech illegal? Is it the majority? The minority? The one who shouts the loudest? Or do we defer those decisions to our governing bodies? Do we involve statistics in making these decisions?
And where do we stop? I was bullied when I was young. Should those people have been prosecuted because they were incredibly hateful towards me? Or is it only valid if the bullying was centered around my skin color? What about when I was called a “cracker”? Is that ok because I’m white?
(Now don’t take this the wrong way or that I’m trying to put to the forefront some white suffering I’ve experienced. I was bullied for many things, done being my skin color since I grew up in a place where whites were a minority. But in my life I still have seen far more injustice towards all people of color so I know it is far more prevalent for them to experience it. And I absolutely agree it’s wrong and we need to work in our society).
And then what are the punishments? How do we then rehabilitate those who are intolerant?
Now let me point out, the freedom of speech thing is separate from the police issue. We need a complete reform of our system from education to higher standards for applicants.
I understand we may stand on different sides when it comes to addressing a problems we both believe exist. I’m genuinely interested in this conversation and think that opposing viewpoints are necessary. My questions are genuine and I’m interested in what a system would look like if these things were to come to fruition.
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Amanita86
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine] 1
#26737775 - 06/11/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, your imaginary world shouldn’t dictate whether or not I have guns or police around in my real world...
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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qman
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Amanita86]
#26737784 - 06/11/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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"Cop tasers special needs man"
Land of the free.
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Amanita86]
#26737804 - 06/11/20 07:58 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: Well, your imaginary world shouldn’t dictate whether or not I have guns or police around in my real world...
im not afraid for my life. i feel sorry that you are afraid for yours.
and before you say "well what if someone pulls a gun on you??!! and you need one for self-defense.. or need to call the cops??!!". to that i say, go ahead and shoot me because life on earth is fucked.
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Amanita86
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: qman]
#26737806 - 06/11/20 07:58 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, there are bad cops, you make a point. But they still need to be around.. The magic bullet is to not have bad cops.
Should I find a video of all the good police interactions to compare to your one bad video so we can get some balance? See what I’m suggesting here?
Pro tip: Use logic, not emotion..
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Amanita86
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine]
#26737811 - 06/11/20 08:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
split_by_nine said:
Quote:
Amanita86 said: Well, your imaginary world shouldn’t dictate whether or not I have guns or police around in my real world...
im not afraid for my life. i feel sorry that you are afraid for yours.
and before you say "well what if someone pulls a gun on you??!! and you need one for self-defense.. or need to call the cops??!!". to that i say, go ahead and shoot me because life on earth is fucked.
You are not the calibration point for how everyone on this earth feels. That’s what you need to learn..
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
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split_by_nine
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Amanita86]
#26737818 - 06/11/20 08:02 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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good. i couldnt handle that kind of pressure. im content with living my life peacefully and never owning a gun.
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Amanita86
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine]
#26737822 - 06/11/20 08:04 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Have at it, I wish you the best in life...
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Amanita86]
#26737847 - 06/11/20 08:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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same to you
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qman
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Amanita86]
#26737849 - 06/11/20 08:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: Yes, there are bad cops, you make a point. But they still need to be around.. The magic bullet is to not have bad cops.
Should I find a video of all the good police interactions to compare to your one bad video so we can get some balance? See what I’m suggesting here?
Pro tip: Use logic, not emotion..
That's wonderful, but instead of having a good vs bad cop debate, let's decide what are appropriate policing practices, the laws they enforce and the potential quotas that are not officially mandated.
I too often hear police chiefs refer to proactive policing, what the fuck is that exactly? It's looking for trouble when there isn't any and then causing it in most cases.
BTW, what is a "good police interactions"? Arresting a person for actually committing a crime? Well, that's called doing their job that WE pay them for in the first place. We don't pay them to harass innocent citizens and ultimately arresting them for some BS charge.
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Amanita86
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: qman]
#26737860 - 06/11/20 08:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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A good police interaction is where they to their job well. Like a good sandwich maker, when they make a good sandwich.
For clarity I’m not suggesting cops are angels, but I am saying they are necessary. We need police, there’s just no way around it. People are crazy. When they’re gone, you’ll wish there were a few still around.
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split_by_nine
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Socrateshroom]
#26737875 - 06/11/20 08:25 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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@Socrateshroom, i dont have the answers man, but i do have suggestions. unfortunately my suggestions are pacifist in nature and are considered radical in their own way.
as you said, "guns exist". well, they dont have to on a global scale. people work in factories that build tanks and bombs. they dont need to do that. but then others will argue, well its a job! and what are they to do if they dont work in the bomb factory?
i respect you and your viewpoints. i think youre right, listening to each others viewpoints is the best path to understanding/reaching a mutual agreement.
as far as punishments for the "evil doers".. well i dont think punishment is the answer. it certainly hasnt helped thus far, has it? if we talk about reform then we need rehabilitation too. people need a safe space. they need love. jamming people into overpopulated prisons is not helping people cope with mistakes theyve made.
you being picked on for being white in a black neighborhood is not fun, but kids are going to make the most mistakes. its part of growing up. maybe those kids that bullied you blossomed into respectable adults. maybe some didnt.
there are no simple solutions. but one thing that i know to be true is admitting you dont know if you have the right answer is a good start to reformation.
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qman
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Amanita86]
#26737881 - 06/11/20 08:27 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: A good police interaction is where they to their job well. Like a good sandwich maker, when they make a good sandwich.
For clarity I’m not suggesting cops are angels, but I am saying they are necessary. We need police, there’s just no way around it. People are crazy. When they’re gone, you’ll wish there were a few still around.
It's like any other profession, you go after the low hanging fruit and play it safe. It's no mystery that cops avoid the real dangerous areas/people and focus on the people much less likely to harm them.
It's not to say a call won't force them into a dangerous situation, but it's only human nature to interact with relative safety.
Why do you think all the police unions opposed legal marijuana? Because it's called the gravy train. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/01/22/four-in-ten-u-s-drug-arrests-in-2018-were-for-marijuana-offenses-mostly-possession/
Yes, we need a police force, that's just stating the obvious. But we don't need what we have today, which is a constant violation of our rights and the enforcement of stupid drug laws.
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split_by_nine
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Amanita86] 2
#26737889 - 06/11/20 08:32 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: We need police, there’s just no way around it. People are crazy. When they’re gone, you’ll wish there were a few still around.
no one is saying get rid of police. we are advocating for humane responses to non-violent 911 calls and traffic stops instead of sending in the militarized, pro-intimidation quasi-soldiers.
but if the police do disappear you best believe my ass will be celebrating.
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Amanita86
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: qman]
#26737893 - 06/11/20 08:33 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Agreed. Prisons are a shit show too, I don’t know how people aren’t in an uproar about that.
The truth of the matter is.... pick an issue, any issue. Start climbing the ladder and it all goes directly to government. I rarely meet someone who has a full grasp on just how sold out and corrupt all that shit is. It’s the most amazing bait and switch ever..
So a lot of this is like trying fix that dam that’s leaking and every time you plug a hole with your finger, and new leak happens.
To be frank, we’re all pretty fucked on the grand scheme of things.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Amanita86]
#26737908 - 06/11/20 08:38 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Should we also consider not allowing politicians to earn any income/wealth whatsoever outside of their official duty?
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Amanita86
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: The Blind Ass] 1
#26737915 - 06/11/20 08:41 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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The founding fathers had jobs outside of their political ambitions. I heard this put into perspective the other day. They didn’t do the political thing as a “job”... it changed the whole dynamic of what they were doing.
I’m kinda simplifying it but do you get what I’m saying?
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26737916 - 06/11/20 08:41 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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i know many will disagree but i dont think politicians should be paid at all, period. if you want to be a leader, then being a leader is your moral reward. if you want to buy groceries then you should get a job like the rest of us.
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Amanita86]
#26737918 - 06/11/20 08:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: The founding fathers had jobs outside of their political ambitions. I heard this put into perspective the other day. They didn’t do the political thing as a “job”... it changed the whole dynamic of what they were doing.
I’m kinda simplifying it but do you get what I’m saying?
totally. it was their moral duty to govern with good intentions.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine]
#26737922 - 06/11/20 08:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I know what your saying Nita. Yea.
Intent? Better to govern wisely than with good intentions only. I hate when it devolves into a game of optics or identity politics.
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ShroomerInTheRye
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine] 1
#26737923 - 06/11/20 08:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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The problem is that running the country/state/city is a full time job, so they wouldn't have time for a second job.
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<-- Clicky Clicky
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Amanita86
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You could certainly cut out the “contributions”. I think in England they can only spend a set amount on their campaigns... levels the playing field and the number of voices whispering in their ears.
Apparently around the world, our political system is seen as pretty fucked up..
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Tantrika
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine] 2
#26737933 - 06/11/20 08:49 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
split_by_nine said: i know many will disagree but i dont think politicians should be paid at all, period. if you want to be a leader, then being a leader is your moral reward. if you want to buy groceries then you should get a job like the rest of us.
Agree with the sentiment but disagree with the likely outcome in modern society
this would result in people like landlords, people who collect off stocks, people with inherited wealth to more or less exclusively run the political establishment
not sure where the balance is just recognize this has a more prohibitive effect on what level of citizenry can rise into politics but also recognize that politics as is already is run heavily by the rich
perhaps some sort of cap on the allowed wealth of public servants and strict reporting and accountability monitoring but this, in turn, would still fail to limit back room deals so ultimately do not know
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ShroomerInTheRye
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Amanita86] 4
#26737935 - 06/11/20 08:51 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I have been screaming for 20 years now to get the corporations out of Congress, but it's all like, "Shroomer, shut the fuck up. That's crazy. Corporations don't buy Congress people. That's insane." and now it's all like "BOOM BITCH! HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT CORPOCRACY WE GOT MOTHAFUKKA?! THAT CORPORATE WELFARE WORKING OUT FOR YOU?!"
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<-- Clicky Clicky
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

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Quote:
ShroomerInTheRye said: The problem is that running the country/state/city is a full time job, so they wouldn't have time for a second job.
makes sense. we have enough tax money to give them a modest welfare check. they dont need $100k+ salaries.
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ShroomerInTheRye
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine]
#26737951 - 06/11/20 08:55 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree 1,000% with that.
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<-- Clicky Clicky
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PatrickKn


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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine] 1
#26737970 - 06/11/20 09:02 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
split_by_nine said: i know many will disagree but i dont think politicians should be paid at all, period. if you want to be a leader, then being a leader is your moral reward. if you want to buy groceries then you should get a job like the rest of us.
Strong disagree. This is how you incentivise only the rich to fill positions of power and economically prohibit the lower class from filling the roles. Then the rich fill all the positions of power and work together to create barriers of entry for lower classes. Eventually the richest and most powerful dude on the block will have the highest seat in the land, and will have policies at odds with other rich people in power. And then you get civil war because the richest guy has support because he is willfully shoring up support in defiance of everyone against him. Give the lower classes a few bones and a plot of land and suddenly you have a thousand year of dynasties and feudal monarchies all over again.
But yes, removing money from the actual election process and legislative process would be helpful.
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split_by_nine
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: PatrickKn]
#26737983 - 06/11/20 09:08 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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the rich are and have been filling positions of power since America's inception and have steadily created barriers of entry for lower classes.
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PatrickKn


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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine]
#26738017 - 06/11/20 09:22 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Arguably, the barriers to entry are less defined than they were just a century ago, and the people filling them are less rich as well a lot of the time. Ability to participate has also increased across multiple demographics and even personalities. Systems of government worldwide still have corruption and issues, and money is perhaps a much bigger influence in politics today than at any time in the past. But the ability to participate has never really been as open. Money is used instead to influence things indirectly, and giving policy makers and executive authorities smaller paychecks wouldn't necessarily change that relationship.
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: PatrickKn] 1
#26738025 - 06/11/20 09:27 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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yes i agree with that
-------------------- 🐴 hpoo or die
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: split_by_nine] 1
#26740607 - 06/12/20 09:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Re: defund the police. or Decommission them. [Re: Tantrika] 1
#26745905 - 06/15/20 08:18 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Isn't that the fucking truth!
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openmind
curious


Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 13,866
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Quote:
tyrannicalrex said:
Quote:
nooneman said: Defunding the police is a stupid idea. It doesn't change anything.
Defunding the police accomplishes nothing, it changes nothing, it will not make policing better nor will it reduce police misconduct or violence.
Agreed.
Really!?...
Ya'll are sounding a bit some narrow minded & boot-licorice not able to think outside the box.
I don't think it's a stupid idea at all...And I do believe it can make drastic changes.
We've taken some of the most pressing/serious social issues and handed them over to pigs to fix with guns, handcuffs, and prison....And you guys don't see anything wrong with that at all? We have "social workers" with guns and handcuffs and you guys can not think of anyway things can be done differently? Fuckin' eh' .
De-funding doesn't mean ending/dismantling police forces entirely. It's shifting around tax $/funds and using $ that would go entirely towards police departments for other programs/methods of dealing with situations where cops/use of force/punishment is not necessary.
There are many ways things can change by shifting tax $/funds away from the police force and into other programs & ways of dealing with certain situations/issues...There are so many situations where someone with a gun and handcuffs is not necessary to be there.
Most cops in this country just don't seem to have the training/education to deal with all the different situations they encounter.






Since Columbine it is said that around 10,000 cops have been placed on school campuses...guess how many school shootings they've stopped? Zero....Guess how many students have been arrested at school for petty offenses, and guess how many of those students are POC...The $ used to pay those officers to be on school campuses can be used in such a better way.
I haven't read the thread yet so I don't know if anyone else has brought up any of these points and I'm a bit scatter-brained at the moment...but I feel it's ridiculous to think that de-funding the police and using those funds for other programs/ways of dealing with various issues/situation will not make any difference.
I have been thinking about this topic for years now, long before the current events of today...I'm too scatter-brained at the moment to go into it all, but there are so many ways things can change and be done differently. I'll try to make my own thread on the topic to try to get all my thoughts and ideas out. Changes need to be made.
Meat heads with guns and handcuffs that tend to be drunk with power is not the only way to deal with all the situations that cops are required to deal with.
-OM
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Edited by openmind (06/15/20 04:43 PM)
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TheStallionMang
Do U know who yur fuckin with?


Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 4,528
Loc:
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Quote:
split_by_nine said:
Quote:
CookieCrumbs said: I'd rather they uhh.. just use the funds to actually help people instead of getting ready to fight them.
I agree. but most police officers are just average people. the money could be better used to pay professionals to organize community wellness programs, especially in impoverished communities where they need it the most.
Most police are not average people. Average people do not seek power over others in the way that being a police office gives someone. Sure, some become a cop with good intentions but the blue code of silence is a very real thing and if you are ratting out bad cops, you aren't going to do very well.
By it's very nature, the job attracts power hungry people and psychopaths, and absolute power corrupts absolutely
Edited by TheStallionMang (06/29/20 09:30 PM)
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split_by_nine
i am the liquor

Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
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yeah i agree with you. by "average" i meant they dont possess any special skills.
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TheStallionMang
Do U know who yur fuckin with?


Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 4,528
Loc:
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Good point, yes I agree and meant to say something about how it was also an attractive job to psychopaths because it isn't hard at all to become one
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ivy.patterns
Wandering Meat Sack



Registered: 01/26/18
Posts: 36
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period.
-------------------- Take it easy, dude, but take it!
Edited by ivy.patterns (06/15/20 09:48 PM)
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,428
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 11 hours, 26 minutes
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Defund the police! is just a protest slogan. If you want, you can choose to interpret it as meaning 'Defund the police! and then do absolutely nothing else' or you can take the time necessary to address the substance behind the slogan.
Defund the police refers to the recognition that our society currently uses police to respond to a wide variety of social issues, coupled with the recognition that armed enforcers are often not the best response to many of these situations.
Defund the police means identifying areas where the methods of modern day policing are actively harmful, and transferring the relevant funds over to more effective methods.
When mentally ill people act in ways that seem erratic to others, we need counselors and advocates, not armed gunmen. When romantic partners and neighbours have conflicts, we need people with conflict resolution and de-escalation skills, not violent escalators enforcing a patriarchal agenda. When kids need traffic directed so they can cross the street, we need friendly elders and neighbours who know them, not people toting lethal weapons who have little experience working with children. When we lose things or find things, we need a community center to exchange them, not a precinct. When our cars break down by the side of the road, we need a community of Good Samaritans, not a mercenary looking to write us a ticket. The majority of what the police do is harmful and should be immediately eliminated to make us all safer; much of the rest could be done much better by skilled, unarmed volunteers of good will.
Defund the police does not mean eliminating the police without filling the void with something different.
The common counterpoint is that it’s naïve to talk about disarming and abolishing the police, citing the aggression and chaos we will supposedly unleash on each other without the violence of the thin blue line to keep us in check. But what’s truly naïve is to continue believing that an institution responsible for widespread violence with impunity is somehow keeping us safe. Collective self-defense will not be easy, but it’s our only hope. Seattle's CHOP became a much safer neighbourhood once the cops were pushed out.
While we’re at it, what about those politicians? If electing new officials can’t stop the police from killing us, what good are they? If we really want to secure our future against the arbitrary power of the authorities, we can’t go half way. As we organize in our neighbourhoods for self-defence and to share and distribute resources, let’s lay the groundwork for a new grassroots form of political organization that can exercise power directly without need for representatives. Inspired by the council system in the Kurdish territories of Rojava, the assemblies of the Greek anarchist movement, the student strikes in Montréal, and many other examples, we can build a new world from the bottom up, without politicians at the top to boss us around.
So what will it take for us to end police violence once and for all? Nothing short of revolution. But that revolution isn’t a distant utopia, or a single spasm in which we storm the Whitehouse. It’s an ongoing process of building relationships, sharing resources, defending ourselves, undoing the interlocking structures of white supremacy, and organizing to meet our needs together without police or politicians - and it’s already happening. It’s time for each and every one of us to choose a side and take a stand. The stakes are high - the life you save might be your own. But as the courageous protestors in Minneapolis and beyond have shown us, not even the power of the police is absolute. Together, we can overcome their violence and build a new world.
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MightyWhite

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 3,556
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Auntie teefa Shiva
LOL
Hey, come protest in the road for me.
Edited by MightyWhite (06/16/20 06:43 AM)
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Re: defund the police. [Re: openmind] 1
#26748410 - 06/16/20 07:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I do agree with what was stated. I also agree with "defunding" in a lot of ways too. If you or anyone else thinks for one second that that power/people/things that are in place right now involving the police force will be given up easily you are sadly mistaken. It will take decades to weed out the families that are ingrained in that lifestyle. It's pretty much like the mafia. It has permeated every facet of life in some way. It's a club and they WILL NOT give up that money supply, power, and status if they can help it.
They'll pass some laws and appease the general public (or put it in print and on the news that they did) and it will continue until the next big blow up over some person(s) death by another cop. The money is too good to dismantle what is in place. It will just morph into another form and keep going. The very rich that profit off of them will not let this happen either. It's a twisted game.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Defund the police! is just a protest slogan. If you want, you can choose to interpret it as meaning 'Defund the police! and then do absolutely nothing else' or you can take the time necessary to address the substance behind the slogan.
Defund the police refers to the recognition that our society currently uses police to respond to a wide variety of social issues, coupled with the recognition that armed enforcers are often not the best response to many of these situations.
Defund the police means identifying areas where the methods of modern day policing are actively harmful, and transferring the relevant funds over to more effective methods.
When mentally ill people act in ways that seem erratic to others, we need counselors and advocates, not armed gunmen. When romantic partners and neighbours have conflicts, we need people with conflict resolution and de-escalation skills, not violent escalators enforcing a patriarchal agenda. When kids need traffic directed so they can cross the street, we need friendly elders and neighbours who know them, not people toting lethal weapons who have little experience working with children. When we lose things or find things, we need a community center to exchange them, not a precinct. When our cars break down by the side of the road, we need a community of Good Samaritans, not a mercenary looking to write us a ticket. The majority of what the police do is harmful and should be immediately eliminated to make us all safer; much of the rest could be done much better by skilled, unarmed volunteers of good will.
Defund the police does not mean eliminating the police without filling the void with something different.
The common counterpoint is that it’s naïve to talk about disarming and abolishing the police, citing the aggression and chaos we will supposedly unleash on each other without the violence of the thin blue line to keep us in check. But what’s truly naïve is to continue believing that an institution responsible for widespread violence with impunity is somehow keeping us safe. Collective self-defense will not be easy, but it’s our only hope. Seattle's CHOP became a much safer neighbourhood once the cops were pushed out.
While we’re at it, what about those politicians? If electing new officials can’t stop the police from killing us, what good are they? If we really want to secure our future against the arbitrary power of the authorities, we can’t go half way. As we organize in our neighbourhoods for self-defence and to share and distribute resources, let’s lay the groundwork for a new grassroots form of political organization that can exercise power directly without need for representatives. Inspired by the council system in the Kurdish territories of Rojava, the assemblies of the Greek anarchist movement, the student strikes in Montréal, and many other examples, we can build a new world from the bottom up, without politicians at the top to boss us around.
So what will it take for us to end police violence once and for all? Nothing short of revolution. But that revolution isn’t a distant utopia, or a single spasm in which we storm the Whitehouse. It’s an ongoing process of building relationships, sharing resources, defending ourselves, undoing the interlocking structures of white supremacy, and organizing to meet our needs together without police or politicians - and it’s already happening. It’s time for each and every one of us to choose a side and take a stand. The stakes are high - the life you save might be your own. But as the courageous protestors in Minneapolis and beyond have shown us, not even the power of the police is absolute. Together, we can overcome their violence and build a new world.
Sounds fantastic! Too bad it's a dream that will be killed and squashed because the powers that be will NEVER let this happen in the USA.
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
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Quote:
MightyWhite said: Auntie teefa Shiva
LOL
Hey, come protest in the road for me.
"I disagree and I'd run you over for it." Way to be the problem everyone else sees...
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,428
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 11 hours, 26 minutes
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Quote:
tyrannicalrex said: Sounds fantastic! Too bad it's a dream that will be killed and squashed because the powers that be will NEVER let this happen in the USA.
I'm not suggesting we ask. Its power seems inescapable - so did the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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I'm with you, but we are where we are for now.  Seems like they have made it to where we/the general public can not overthrow/change things as they once could because they learned how to intercept and prevent it now.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
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What modern adaptations do you feel prevent revolutionary change from happening? Ever consider that type of self-defeating thought to be one of them?
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feevers


Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: What modern adaptations do you feel prevent revolutionary change from happening? Ever consider that type of self-defeating thought to be one of them?
They don't prevent, but student loans tie down the most educated and aware from taking any sort of drastic/revolutionary action because they're financially handcuffed, health insurance based upon employment is another anchor. It seems like the shutdown and current economy is as much a factor in the action we're seeing now as the killing of Floyd himself.
I am more optimistic now than I was in the past though.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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I agree with feevers above statement. Yes, I can be very cynical and jaded, but I am 55yo. I have seen a bit more than some of you, but not as much as some.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
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Last seen: 11 hours, 26 minutes
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Re: defund the police. [Re: feevers]
#26748823 - 06/16/20 12:08 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Definitely that makes it challenging, but even slaves have risen up in revolt; I don't think financial debt is an impossible shackle.
Still, it's true that people are more likely to fight for a better world when they aren't worried about losing their basic needs (like food, shelter, and medicine) in the interim, and that's why mutual aid is held up as such an important revolutionary concept by anarchists:
Quote:
Mutual aid is a practice of reciprocal care through which participants in a network make sure that everyone’s needs are met. It is neither a tit-for-tat exchange nor the sort of one-way assistance that a charity organization offers, but a free interchange of assistance and resources. Anarchists believe that communities can meet their needs through mutual aid rather than cutthroat competition for profit.
As the COVID-19 crisis unfolded, communities across the US recognized the need to organize to meet urgent needs collectively. Because anarchists took the initiative in these efforts from the beginning, they came to be known under the banner of mutual aid. Subsequently, even progressive politicians like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez called on Americans to form mutual aid initiatives.
The term was originally popularized by the Russian anarchist Peter Kropotkin and spread through international anarchist networks. Kropotkin, a naturalist and biologist, argued in Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution (1902) that it is reciprocity and cooperation, not bloodthirsty competition, that enables species from the smallest microorganisms to human societies to survive and thrive. This challenged the Social Darwinist dogma of “survival of the fittest” that business elites used to justify the exploitation and inequality that accompanied the expansion of global capitalism in the nineteenth century. Kropotkin made a scientific and philosophical case for reorganizing society according to the principles of mutual aid, which he described as “the close dependency of every one’s happiness upon the happiness of all” and “the sense of justice, or equity, which brings the individual to consider the rights of every other individual as equal to his own.” Since Kropotkin’s day, anarchists have consistently put this principle into practice via efforts like Food Not Bombs, Really Really Free Markets, community bail and bond funds, the Common Ground Collective’s work after Hurricane Katrina, Mutual Aid Disaster Relief, and other projects.
Today, COVID-19 relief volunteers and supporters of the Justice for George Floyd protests collaborate to offer free medical care, water, food, and supplies on the streets of Minneapolis, Washington, DC, and around the United States. These efforts draw on the anarchist principle to each according to need, from each according to ability.
It’s no surprise that COVID-19 relief and protest support efforts are intersecting. Due to the racialized disparities in wealth, health care access, and workplace vulnerability, people of color and Black people in particular have suffered disproportionately during the pandemic. Fighting for the principle that Black lives matter means confronting not only police violence but also all the other systems of oppression that have kept so many Black communities impoverished. These community initiatives reflect the anarchist idea that everyone’s health and freedom are interlinked and can best be preserved through solidarity.
Read more: This Is Anarchy - Eight Ways the Black Lives Matter and Justice for George Floyd Uprisings Reflect Anarchist Ideas in Action
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ShroomerInTheRye
Clit Commander



Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 13,036
Loc: Themyscira
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Debt isn't an impossible shackle, but man, it's a really hard one to break.
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<-- Clicky Clicky
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shivas.wisdom
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Registered: 02/19/09
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Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 11 hours, 26 minutes
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Do you consider mutual aid alone to not be enough?
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ShroomerInTheRye
Clit Commander



Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 13,036
Loc: Themyscira
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What do you consider "mutual aid"?
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<-- Clicky Clicky
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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"Anarchists believe that communities can meet their needs through mutual aid rather than cutthroat competition for profit".
This is what drives (seemingly) most if not all businesses, doctors, lawyers, etc.... They instill it in their children at home and in schools. How many well trained docs from good schools do you think would participate in something like that? They owe hundreds of thousands of dollars usually. Also some of the families that a lot of docs come from are already wealthy or well off and do not have to worry about money or police fucking with them etc... how many farmers in america would give up their subsidies etc...and trade small amounts of food to have a broke leg fixed, or a shot for a cow etc...the only way something like your post would work if it were to be total and complete anarchy world wide and a destruction of every single power structure in place, but then another group of snakes would take over with the promises of a great future if you'll just listen to them and do what they say/want etc....it's a vicious circle of fucked up shit.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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"The term was originally popularized by the Russian anarchist Peter Kropotkin and spread through international anarchist networks. Kropotkin, a naturalist and biologist, argued in Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution (1902) that it is reciprocity and cooperation, not bloodthirsty competition, that enables species from the smallest microorganisms to human societies to survive and thrive. This challenged the Social Darwinist dogma of “survival of the fittest” that business elites used to justify the exploitation and inequality that accompanied the expansion of global capitalism in the nineteenth century. Kropotkin made a scientific and philosophical case for reorganizing society according to the principles of mutual aid, which he described as “the close dependency of every one’s happiness upon the happiness of all” and “the sense of justice, or equity, which brings the individual to consider the rights of every other individual as equal to his own.”
Do you REALLY think that people are going to adopt this model for a new society? In light of the way people are acting now on ANY side? I love it personally, but in reality this will NEVER fly because the ones that wouldn't profit/win/gain from it are in control and they have a fucking superior grip. It's been put in place over centuries slowly but surely incrementally, and hidden under the guises of "what's good for the people" etc...Some people have a superiority complex and will NEVER rub elbows the "common people".
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ShroomerInTheRye
Clit Commander



Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 13,036
Loc: Themyscira
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It's a beautiful thought, yes, but improbable to implement because of the nature of being human.
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<-- Clicky Clicky
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,428
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 11 hours, 26 minutes
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Quote:
ShroomerInTheRye said: What do you consider "mutual aid"?
I provide an explanation here
Quote:
tyrannicalrex said: "Anarchists believe that communities can meet their needs through mutual aid rather than cutthroat competition for profit".
This is what drives (seemingly) most if not all businesses, doctors, lawyers, etc.... They instill it in their children at home and in schools. How many well trained docs from good schools do you think would participate in something like that? They owe hundreds of thousands of dollars usually. Also some of the families that a lot of docs come from are already wealthy or well off and do not have to worry about money or police fucking with them etc... how many farmers in america would give up their subsidies etc...and trade small amounts of food to have a broke leg fixed, or a shot for a cow etc...the only way something like your post would work if it were to be total and complete anarchy world wide and a destruction of every single power structure in place, but then another group of snakes would take over with the promises of a great future if you'll just listen to them and do what they say/want etc....it's a vicious circle of fucked up shit.
Yes this is what drives businesses, doctors, lawyers, etc capitalism - but the argument is that "cutthroat competition for profit" as necessary for the health of human society is a myth perpetuated by the ruling class that assists their exploitation of the rest of us.
This myth is pervasive; as you display here, it's easier to imagine an end to the world than an end to capitalism. Capitalist realism is loosely defined as the predominant conception that capitalism is the only viable economic system, and thus there can be no imaginable alternative.
For example, if we look at your arguments against doctor participation in mutual aid - these arguments are based on issues intrinsic to the current capitalist system rather than inherent to the profession: student debt; class division. How come you didn't consider opposing examples like Medecins Sans Frontieres instead?
Looking at your farmer example, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of mutual aid - it's not a barter type system: "neither a tit-for-tat exchange nor the sort of one-way assistance that a charity organization offers, but a free interchange of assistance and resources".
There are already examples of mutual aid in action in the USA. Check out Mutual Aid Disaster Relief or Common Ground Relief for a couple examples - look into the Greek migrant squats for some awesome international examples of what mutual aid can accomplish.
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ShroomerInTheRye
Clit Commander



Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 13,036
Loc: Themyscira
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Okay, yeah, that would be great if that were happening, but it's not happening and it'll be hard to get people to come over to that side.
Take a look at student loans. The concept of "student loan forgiveness" and "free college" is being kicked around in the USA, right? You've got more voices against it than for it. Would it benefit everyone if we could pursue educations more along what we feel is right in our hearts? Absolutely. Does anyone want to pay for that? No. We would much rather send our money overseas to bomb little brown kids.
I took out a student loan to better society. I literally got to rewrite laws. Now people can marry whoever they want, but me? I'm mired in student debt for others to have that right. Where's my aid? Nobody's reached in and helped on that front but man, I personally know many people who've benefitted from that.
Don't take it as complaining. I mean it's kinda complaining, but I realize I put myself there. I got to do something most people do not get to do, but every night I lay awake with racing thoughts of "was it the right thing to do"?
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<-- Clicky Clicky
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
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Quote:
ShroomerInTheRye said: It's a beautiful thought, yes, but improbable to implement because of the nature of being human.
If your doubt is based on social Darwinism as human nature, I highly suggest that you at least skim this book: Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution. It's basically an argument for mutual aid on biological and evolutionary terms.
Quote:
Introduction
Two aspects of animal life impressed me most during the journeys which I made in my youth in Eastern Siberia and Northern Manchuria. One of them was the extreme severity of the struggle for existence which most species of animals have to carry on against an inclement Nature; the enormous destruction of life which periodically results from natural agencies; and the consequent paucity of life over the vast territory which fell under my observation. And the other was, that even in those few spots where animal life teemed in abundance, I failed to find — although I was eagerly looking for it — that bitter struggle for the means of existence, among animals belonging to the same species, which was considered by most Darwinists (though not always by Darwin himself) as the dominant characteristic of struggle for life, and the main factor of evolution.
[...]
On the other hand, wherever I saw animal life in abundance, as, for instance, on the lakes where scores of species and millions of individuals came together to rear their progeny; in the colonies of rodents; in the migrations of birds which took place at that time on a truly American scale along the Usuri; and especially in a migration of fallow-deer which I witnessed on the Amur, and during which scores of thousands of these intelligent animals came together from an immense territory, flying before the coming deep snow, in order to cross the Amur where it is narrowest — in all these scenes of animal life which passed before my eyes, I saw Mutual Aid and Mutual Support carried on to an extent which made me suspect in it a feature of the greatest importance for the maintenance of life, the preservation of each species, and its further evolution.
And finally, I saw among the semi-wild cattle and horses in Transbaikalia, among the wild ruminants everywhere, the squirrels, and so on, that when animals have to struggle against scarcity of food, in consequence of one of the above-mentioned causes, the whole of that portion of the species which is affected by the calamity, comes out of the ordeal so much impoverished in vigour and health, that no progressive evolution of the species can be based upon such periods of keen competition.
Consequently, when my attention was drawn, later on, to the relations between Darwinism and Sociology, I could agree with none of the works and pamphlets that had been written upon this important subject. They all endeavoured to prove that Man, owing to his higher intelligence and knowledge, may mitigate the harshness of the struggle for life between men; but they all recognized at the same time that the struggle for the means of existence, of every animal against all its congeners, and of every man against all other men, was “a law of Nature.” This view, however, I could not accept, because I was persuaded that to admit a pitiless inner war for life within each species, and to see in that war a condition of progress, was to admit something which not only had not yet been proved, but also lacked confirmation from direct observation.
On the contrary, a lecture “On the Law of Mutual Aid,” which was delivered at a Russian Congress of Naturalists, in January 1880, by the well-known zoologist, Professor Kessler, the then Dean of the St. Petersburg University, struck me as throwing a new light on the whole subject. Kessler’s idea was, that besides the law of Mutual Struggle there is in Nature the law of Mutual Aid, which, for the success of the struggle for life, and especially for the progressive evolution of the species, is far more important than the law of mutual contest. This suggestion — which was, in reality, nothing but a further development of the ideas expressed by Darwin himself in The Descent of Man — seemed to me so correct and of so great an importance, that since I became acquainted with it (in 1883) I began to collect materials for further developing the idea, which Kessler had only cursorily sketched in his lecture, but had not lived to develop. He died in 1881.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
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Quote:
ShroomerInTheRye said: Okay, yeah, that would be great if that were happening, but it's not happening and it'll be hard to get people to come over to that side.
Take a look at student loans. The concept of "student loan forgiveness" and "free college" is being kicked around in the USA, right? You've got more voices against it than for it. Would it benefit everyone if we could pursue educations more along what we feel is right in our hearts? Absolutely. Does anyone want to pay for that? No. We would much rather send our money overseas to bomb little brown kids.
I took out a student loan to better society. I literally got to rewrite laws. Now people can marry whoever they want, but me? I'm mired in student debt for others to have that right. Where's my aid? Nobody's reached in and helped on that front but man, I personally know many people who've benefitted from that.
Don't take it as complaining. I mean it's kinda complaining, but I realize I put myself there. I got to do something most people do not get to do, but every night I lay awake with racing thoughts of "was it the right thing to do"?
One of the core ideas behind mutual aid - and every other method of anarchist organizing - is that they don't require top-down change.
Think on these terms: instead of asking yourself how you can convince the government to forgive your student loans, ask yourself how you can organize within your community to meet everyone's basic needs directly - because once unpaid loans don't mean homelessness, starvation, or sickness, what's the threat in refusing to pay?
And this type of organization definitely is happening! Check out the examples I just referred to tyrannicalrex
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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"Yes this is what drives businesses, doctors, lawyers, etc capitalism - but the argument is that "cutthroat competition for profit" as necessary for the health of human society is a myth perpetuated by the ruling class that assists their exploitation of the rest of us.
This myth is pervasive; as you display here, it's easier to imagine an end to the world than an end to capitalism. Capitalist realism is loosely defined as the predominant conception that capitalism is the only viable economic system, and thus there can be no imaginable alternative".
It is in place for centuries more. I will NEVER see this system fall, younger people might and I hope they change it. It will have to change from within in increments slowly over time it seems. Just like it got it's hold on society over time. There is no way it can change (let's say in a year? 2 years? More than 2?) unless every single system world wide changes at the same time. I'm with you man, I love what you're saying so don't get me wrong. Do you think the ones in power are going to relinquish ANY fucking thing(s) they have? They won't even pay a living minimum wage for fucks sake!
ME: You can still make 3 billion and give more to the workers.
CORP: NO! It is our right and we want 5 billion. 3 billion isn't enough!
 
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ShroomerInTheRye
Clit Commander



Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 13,036
Loc: Themyscira
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Think on these terms: instead of asking yourself how you can convince the government to forgive your student loans, ask yourself how you can organize within your community to meet everyone's basic needs directly - because once unpaid loans don't mean homelessness, starvation, or sickness, what's the threat in refusing to pay?
If you don't pay your student loans, they garnish your wages, basic needs met or not.
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<-- Clicky Clicky
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,428
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 11 hours, 26 minutes
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Did you check out the examples I suggested? They could be considered small increments of change, in that they don't directly attack the state while still managing to set up highly effective networks of mutual aid.
https://www.commongroundrelief.org/ https://mutualaiddisasterrelief.org/
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,428
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Last seen: 11 hours, 26 minutes
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Quote:
ShroomerInTheRye said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Think on these terms: instead of asking yourself how you can convince the government to forgive your student loans, ask yourself how you can organize within your community to meet everyone's basic needs directly - because once unpaid loans don't mean homelessness, starvation, or sickness, what's the threat in refusing to pay?
If you don't pay your student loans, they garnish your wages, basic needs met or not.
Why do you work, if not to be able to afford your basic needs? If they can be met though other methods, the traditional 9-5 can get the same treatment as student debt.
Yea, the issue is systemic and multifaceted - I'm not sure how shutting down alternatives is more effective.
Even if we can't achieve everything all at once - just like early navigators used the stars as guides, we can use the concept of the best world possible to guide us toward a better world.
But if you're constantly shitting on suggestions as impossible without at least attempting to suggest a better alternative - how are you helping things change?
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ShroomerInTheRye
Clit Commander



Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 13,036
Loc: Themyscira
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It's not constantly shitting on suggestions, it's just being realistic about people. We aren't going to change folks in this lifetime. Young people are coming around and embracing the idea of mutual aid, but until there's more of them in power than old money hoarding white guys, we can't overthrow the system. It's too powerful.
Look at Amazon. People were catching the COVID and there were cries to boycott Amazon because of it. Nobody stopped giving their money to Jeff Bezos.
Nobody in society cares about anyone else. Your model depends on others giving a shit about people. The truth is nobody cares about anyone besides themselves and their families. It comes from a fear of lack.
If you want to change society and REALLY implement mutual aid, you have to take the fear of lack out of nearly everyone on the planet.
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<-- Clicky Clicky
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Quote:
ShroomerInTheRye said: It's not constantly shitting on suggestions, it's just being realistic about people. We aren't going to change folks in this lifetime. Young people are coming around and embracing the idea of mutual aid, but until there's more of them in power than old money hoarding white guys, we can't overthrow the system. It's too powerful.
Look at Amazon. People were catching the COVID and there were cries to boycott Amazon because of it. Nobody stopped giving their money to Jeff Bezos.
Nobody in society cares about anyone else. Your model depends on others giving a shit about people. The truth is nobody cares about anyone besides themselves and their families. It comes from a fear of lack.
If you want to change society and REALLY implement mutual aid, you have to take the fear of lack out of nearly everyone on the planet.
Yep, unfortunately a lot of your statement is truth.
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ShroomerInTheRye
Clit Commander



Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 13,036
Loc: Themyscira
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I wish it wasn't. I get and respect how far we could come as one human family if we gave even the smallest shit about each other. We could be living in Star Trek times where there's no longer a need for money and there's aliens. If there's no benefit in it for the "me", why would anyone do it for the "we"? It's just not the world we live in.
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<-- Clicky Clicky
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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I'm with you.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
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I still don't understand - I provided two examples of mutual aid organizations that originated within the USA, and continue to operate in the USA:
https://www.commongroundrelief.org/ https://mutualaiddisasterrelief.org/
So the argument that mutual aid won't work because "nobody cares about anyone besides themselves and their families" is patently untrue. I just provided you with two examples of mutual aid in action. I also provided you with biological and evolutionary evidence in support of mutual aid.
Why should we believe your gut feeling instead? Can you explain why the mutual aid organizations I linked to are ineffective; or why the model works for them but wouldn't work in your case?
Quote:
If you want to change society and REALLY implement mutual aid, you have to take the fear of lack out of nearly everyone on the planet.
The function of mutual aid is to do exactly this, but you seem to be under the impression that anything that doesn't operate on a global scale would be ineffective. Personally, I don't think such global change is possible and if that's what you're waiting for you'll be waiting forever - instead we have to envision how things would look like if they changed from the ground up because that's they only way we can implement change directly.
If taking away fear of lack is integral to changing society, wouldn't every instance of mutual aid that managed to take away this fear for a finite amount of people still hold a benefit? Wouldn't every additional person who benefited from this removal of fear increase the likelihood that more people would start participating in expanding mutual aid programs? Do you see the snowball?
Are you doing anything other than waiting? (god, what an endless wait!)
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
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Loc: Turtle Island
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Common Ground and MADR both originated in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina btw, if we're talking about challenging conditions. Still going strong 15 years later.
Here's some long-form journalism on them from 2006 - it's worth the read!
A Healthy Dose of Anarchy - After Katrina, nontraditional, decentralized relief steps in where big government and big charity failed.
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cannabinated



Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 14,743
Loc: Outside
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https://twitter.com/CBSLA/status/1273477470298279938/photo/1
police just killed the brother of the kid that was lynched in cali
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I still don't understand - I provided two examples of mutual aid organizations that originated within the USA, and continue to operate in the USA:
https://www.commongroundrelief.org/ https://mutualaiddisasterrelief.org/
So the argument that mutual aid won't work because "nobody cares about anyone besides themselves and their families" is patently untrue. I just provided you with two examples of mutual aid in action. I also provided you with biological and evolutionary evidence in support of mutual aid.
Why should we believe your gut feeling instead? Can you explain why the mutual aid organizations I linked to are ineffective; or why the model works for them but wouldn't work in your case?
Quote:
If you want to change society and REALLY implement mutual aid, you have to take the fear of lack out of nearly everyone on the planet.
The function of mutual aid is to do exactly this, but you seem to be under the impression that anything that doesn't operate on a global scale would be ineffective. Personally, I don't think such global change is possible and if that's what you're waiting for you'll be waiting forever - instead we have to envision how things would look like if they changed from the ground up because that's they only way we can implement change directly.
If taking away fear of lack is integral to changing society, wouldn't every instance of mutual aid that managed to take away this fear for a finite amount of people still hold a benefit? Wouldn't every additional person who benefited from this removal of fear increase the likelihood that more people would start participating in expanding mutual aid programs? Do you see the snowball?
Are you doing anything other than waiting? (god, what an endless wait!)
The thing is what universities would give free education? What mechanics would give free car repair? etc...where would it start? Are we supposed to go back to horses for transportation? Someone and or a large groups of people would have to begin the process and that's where I see the main problem with starting all of that is. It will take money unfortunately and people are greedy fuckfaced assholes when it come to money. Like I said, I love the idea and model of those things, but it doesn't seem realistic unfortunately. I see small scale and smaller communities and cities and towns doing it, but they still have to rely on bigger companies etc... for some things until they can completely stay afloat separately.
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
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It's not up to the universities at that point. If you're talking purely university it's one of the things that needs the most changing considering 90% of your institutes are privately funded by the Confucius Institute aka CPP aka the Chinese government. There are plenty of countries with free tertiary education.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Any schools really. The quality of the education is dependent on things as well. Greed is entrenched in the way society runs mostly. It is pushed by media, movies, pro sports, etc.... I also see women and men who say "I need to lose some weight", and they look perfectly fine to me. Life is strange, but I'm riding this ride to the end!
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cannabinated



Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 14,743
Loc: Outside
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they can cut out the middleman when it comes to education its not hard
8 year olds should be taking online classes...
but they wont sell them to you until theyve collapsed the public education system, as it is in some states.
Because its not worth it to these education corporations to be supplemental, they need to control the whole market.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Yep, it's a human centipede system.
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TheStallionMang
Do U know who yur fuckin with?


Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 4,528
Loc:
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Quote:
tyrannicalrex said:Do you think the ones in power are going to relinquish ANY fucking thing(s) they have?
No, people in power NEVER give up power willingly. It must be taken from their cold dead hand
Hatred, anger, and racism must be bred out of humans the same way that aggressive traits were bred out of the more "family friendly" breeds of dogs. Y We must kill off the aggressive ones before they reproduce and after a few (or possibly many) generations you will begin to see a difference.
You can't teach stupid and you can't unlearn racism
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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I know, agreed. I blame the parents and the communities that they raise the kids in mostly, but after a certain age and attained knowledge it becomes a choice.
(love the Dinasuars show ref in the avvy sig, lol)
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Last seen: 1 day, 8 hours
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Quote:
TheStallionMang said:
Quote:
tyrannicalrex said:Do you think the ones in power are going to relinquish ANY fucking thing(s) they have?
No, people in power NEVER give up power willingly. It must be taken from their cold dead hand
Hatred, anger, and racism must be bred out of humans the same way that aggressive traits were bred out of the more "family friendly" breeds of dogs. Y We must kill off the aggressive ones before they reproduce and after a few (or possibly many) generations you will begin to see a difference.
You can't teach stupid and you can't unlearn racism
"We must kill off the aggressive ones"
Oh, the irony.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Re: defund the police. [Re: qman]
#26753987 - 06/18/20 10:47 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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LOL, Let me clarify. I agreed, but not the killing part.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,428
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 11 hours, 26 minutes
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Quote:
tyrannicalrex said: The thing is what universities would give free education? What mechanics would give free car repair? etc...where would it start? Are we supposed to go back to horses for transportation? Someone and or a large groups of people would have to begin the process and that's where I see the main problem with starting all of that is. It will take money unfortunately and people are greedy fuckfaced assholes when it come to money. Like I said, I love the idea and model of those things, but it doesn't seem realistic unfortunately. I see small scale and smaller communities and cities and towns doing it, but they still have to rely on bigger companies etc... for some things until they can completely stay afloat separately.
Where would it start? You, of course.
Besides mutual aid, another one of the fundamental principles of anarchist theory is that of direct action. Simply put, direct action means cutting out the middleman: solving problems yourself rather than petitioning the authorities or relying on external institutions. The last article I linked to touches on this aspect of mutual aid:
Quote:
When locals trying to rebuild asked Common Ground for help getting the proper permits, the group's policy was to help rebuild, building permits or not. "We're essentially breaking the law," Koné told me, pausing for emphasis. "That's civil disobedience." If it keeps people from living in mold-filled houses, he said, then Common Ground will do it.
It seems you're also worried that no one else would join you. Have you never heard of a teacher buying school supplies with their own money; or volunteering their time for extracurricular help? Have you never had a mechanic not charge you for their labour or the entire repair? The idea that everyone would participate is just as illogical as the notion that no one would - and we don't need 100% participation anyways in order to be able to tap into the benefits of mutual aid.
The process is already started! Of course mutual aid alone isn't the only method of anarchist organizing, but the beauty of mutual aid is that we can practice it in so many ways, in so many different and vital aspects of our lives - you're probably arguing against the viability of a practice you already incorporate into your life. Even if it doesn't completely overhaul our society - so what? - any level of implementation will be beneficial. Here are five areas of everyday life where we practice mutual aid all the time - whether we know it or not:
Sharing Resources
Getting involved in waste reduction and goods redistribution are great ways to start engaging with mutual aid projects. Many of us have more than we will ever need, while others are struggling to obtain the most basic items needed to sustain themselves and their families. Projects like Food Not Bombs, community food pantries and kitchens are often on the front line of cooking and sharing food that was otherwise destined for the landfill. Community tool libraries, vegetable seed swap events, and Really Really Free Markets are also examples of mutual aid in action, whereby useful resources are made freely available to those who need them. If any of these projects exist in your community, they will nearly always welcome extra hands.
Learn more: The Really Really Free Market, Instituting The Gift Economy Food, Not Bombs – Serving Free Meals in a Radical Way
Disaster Response
Capitalism is a disaster in so many ways. Disasters fueled by climate change, industrial “accidents,” and crimes stemming from political corruption (e.g., the poisoning of the water system in Flint, Michigan) impact an increasing number of communities and ecosystems every year. Disaster response by governments and large NGOs is frequently inadequate and heavily biased by racism and classism. Mutual aid disaster response networks have been emerging as highly effective alternatives, with local know-how launching rapid response rescues and evacuations, food kitchens, distribution of emergency supplies, and emergency accommodation networks that are safe for undocumented folks and others who might find government shelters unsafe or otherwise problematic. If your region doesn’t already have its own mutual-aid disaster response group, there are a number of great resources online for creating one.
Learn more: Black Flags and Windmills: Hope, Anarchy, and the Common Ground Collective by scott crow The Battle for Paradise View documentary: Trouble: No Permission Needed
Skill Sharing
Do you have experience or skills that other people could learn from? Community workshops, how-to-guides, and online videos are fantastic ways to share skills in the spirit of mutual aid. Self-defense, local ecological knowledge, ancestral skills, healing methods, emergency medicine, crafts, bike and car repairs, building and carpentry … the potential for skill sharing is infinite. In-person workshops are an especially powerful form of mutual aid because they facilitate community connections and create new spaces for development of local relationships and projects. How-to guides in the form of printed and digital zines, blog posts, and videos have the potential to reach more geographically disparate audiences and can plant seeds of knowledge, inspiration, and mutual aid in far flung places.
Learn more: This co-op bike shop will teach you to fix your own damn bike (and that matters) Anarchist Workshop Brings Bike Skills to the People
Community Defense
Since hate groups constantly shift their targets, there’s always a need for a smart, agile, organized community response to the virtual and physical threats posed by such groups, including state-sanctioned violence perpetrated by law enforcement. With physical and online aggression from white nationalists and neo-fascists on the rise, we can support at-risk members of our communities in a variety of ways. These extend from establishing safe houses and safe spaces to forming well-trained self defense groups and cop watch networks to anti-doxxing security measures, legal support, and communication systems that share information about the location and activities of hate groups. How a community responds to hate and violence needs to be informed by the unique situation that community experiences; the process should always center the voices of those being marginalized.
Learn more: Antifa Seven Hills Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook, by Mark Bray The Antifa Comic Book: 100 Years of Fascism and Antifa Movements by Gord Hill View: Scott Crow vs Tucker Carlson on Antifa, antifascist organizing
Legal Support
The U.S. is the biggest carceral society in the world; opposing the prison industrial complex and supporting community members facing state persecution is one significant focal point of collective organizing and struggle. With unfortunate frequency we see radical individuals and groups being targeted by the state, which uses the courts and the prison system as a weapon. The legal system turns people’s lives upside down and has an enormous impact on families and loved ones. Mutual aid in the form of legal support can mean turning up to court as an expression of solidarity with those being targeted by the state; helping to find appropriate legal representation; supporting family members of those going to trial or already in prison; childcare; fundraising for legal costs; and setting up prison support networks that can sustain the work for the long haul. Community bond funds are a type of mutual aid project that are increasingly springing up around the country to pay bonds for people charged with crimes. These revolving funds support individuals and communities impacted by structural violence and who cannot afford to pay the bonds themselves. Engaging in legal support can also entail mounting media campaigns to amplify the narrative and plight of defendants/prisoners.
Learn more: Crashing the Party: Legacies and Lessons from the RNC 2000 by Kris Hermes Midnight Special Law Collective Grand Jury Resistance Project Anarchist Black Cross Federation Chicago Community Bond Fund Philadelphia Community Bond Fund
In its proper sense, mutual aid does not describe a program that provides unidirectional assistance for others the way a charity organization does. Rather, it is the decentralized practice of reciprocal care via which participants in a network make sure that everyone gets what they need, so that everyone has reason to be invested in everyone else’s well-being. This is not a matter of tit-for-tat exchange, but rather an interchange of care and resources that creates the sort of redundancy and resilience that can sustain a community through difficult times. Mutual aid networks thrive best when it is possible to build up reciprocal trust with others over a long period of time. You don’t have to know or even like everyone else in the network, but everyone has to give enough to the network that together, your efforts create a sense of abundance.
The framework of reciprocity might seem to lend itself to social stratification, in which people from similar social classes with similar access to resources gravitate to each other in order to get the best return on the investment of their own resources. But groups from different backgrounds can have access to a wide range of different kinds of resources. In these times, financial wealth may prove much less valuable than experience with plumbing, the ability to speak a particular dialect, or social ties in a community you never thought you’d find yourself depending on. Everyone has good cause to extend their networks of mutual aid as far and wide as possible.
The fundamental idea here is that it is our bonds with others that keep us safe, not our protection from them or our power over them. Preppers who have focused on building up a private stockpile of food, gear, and weapons are putting the pieces in place for an each-against-all apocalypse. If you put all your energy into individual solutions, leaving everyone around you to fight for survival on their own, your only hope is to outgun the competition. And even if you do - when there’s no one else to turn those guns on, you’ll be the last one left, and that gun will be the last tool at your disposal.
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
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Re: defund the police. [Re: qman]
#26754815 - 06/18/20 04:02 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
TheStallionMang said: No, people in power NEVER give up power willingly. It must be taken from their cold dead hand
Hatred, anger, and racism must be bred out of humans the same way that aggressive traits were bred out of the more "family friendly" breeds of dogs. Y We must kill off the aggressive ones before they reproduce and after a few (or possibly many) generations you will begin to see a difference.
You can't teach stupid and you can't unlearn racism
"We must kill off the aggressive ones"
Oh, the irony. 
Thought that was worth taking a second look at. See how that works..?
What could to wrong?
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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MightyWhite

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 3,556
Last seen: 1 hour, 58 minutes
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Quote:
larry.fisherman said:
Quote:
MightyWhite said: Auntie teefa Shiva
LOL
Hey, come protest in the road for me.
"I disagree and I'd run you over for it." Way to be the problem everyone else sees...
Could you please tone down your estrogen level so you can think clearly? Thanks
Politics aside, do you believe that's it's a good idea to stop a truck that's hauling a hazmat load in a crowd of cars? Maybe a truck hauling magnesium powder? Maybe Koods or Asante can take the time to explain to you what happens if magnesium catches on fire or how easy it is to extinguish a magnesium fire. You probably don't realize a fuel tanker is a rolling bomb? DHS monitors their movement closely, and their basically instructed to stop for NO ONE. That wouldn't be catastrophic if somebody hijacked a fuel tanker because it was stopped.
Is it a good idea to stop a truck carrying time sensitive freight to a hospital? Because I've never brought a truckload of baby formula to DeVos children's hospital in Grand Rapids, MI or anything like that and I haven't brought a truckload of needed PPE and surgical supplies to Ford hospital in Detroit. Not me, no one needs that stuff and they can just wait.
Next time I'll think about your feelings and forget about getting the things to save people's lives to where it needs to be. I don't want to be the problem that everyone can see
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
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When a bitch starts to meddle, Stomp the gas pedal!!   
I just made that up..
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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viraldrome



Registered: 09/21/18
Posts: 4,049
Loc: Parts Unknown
Last seen: 1 hour, 26 minutes
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Quote:
TheStallionMang said:
Quote:
tyrannicalrex said:Do you think the ones in power are going to relinquish ANY fucking thing(s) they have?
No, people in power NEVER give up power willingly. It must be taken from their cold dead hand
Hatred, anger, and racism must be bred out of humans the same way that aggressive traits were bred out of the more "family friendly" breeds of dogs. Y We must kill off the aggressive ones before they reproduce and after a few (or possibly many) generations you will begin to see a difference.
You can't teach stupid and you can't unlearn racism
So you want to Euthanize racists? Like gas them in an oven? For having a different opinion than you? You know opinions aren't genetic traits right? Like two liberal professors can have a racist kid.
The people's whose racist attitudes do the most damage would never be caught waving a nazi flag or going to a hate rally, how exactly are you going to weed them out in your genocidal utopia? Like the racist landlord who wont rent to blacks, or the bank manager who denies them loans, or the teacher who gives up on them. All of those people do way more damage than openly racist losers.
-------------------- Lysergamides I have tried so far: 1P-LSD, 1cP-LSD, ALD-52, AL-LAD, LSZ, ETH-LAD, MIPLA, EIPLA, 1cP-AL-LAD
Edited by viraldrome (06/24/20 07:09 AM)
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
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Quote:
MightyWhite said:
Quote:
larry.fisherman said:
Quote:
MightyWhite said: Auntie teefa Shiva
LOL
Hey, come protest in the road for me.
"I disagree and I'd run you over for it." Way to be the problem everyone else sees...
Could you please tone down your estrogen level so you can think clearly? Thanks
Politics aside, do you believe that's it's a good idea to stop a truck that's hauling a hazmat load in a crowd of cars? Maybe a truck hauling magnesium powder? Maybe Koods or Asante can take the time to explain to you what happens if magnesium catches on fire or how easy it is to extinguish a magnesium fire. You probably don't realize a fuel tanker is a rolling bomb? DHS monitors their movement closely, and their basically instructed to stop for NO ONE. That wouldn't be catastrophic if somebody hijacked a fuel tanker because it was stopped.
Is it a good idea to stop a truck carrying time sensitive freight to a hospital? Because I've never brought a truckload of baby formula to DeVos children's hospital in Grand Rapids, MI or anything like that and I haven't brought a truckload of needed PPE and surgical supplies to Ford hospital in Detroit. Not me, no one needs that stuff and they can just wait.
Next time I'll think about your feelings and forget about getting the things to save people's lives to where it needs to be. I don't want to be the problem that everyone can see
Why are you so butthurt? Is it because you said something stupid? It doesn't help following it up with something else stupid. Did you say this before? Are you explaining something or giving me an excuse? Next time you try calling me a woman and implying I'm whining, how about you have the presence of mind to be intelligent enough to realize what you're saying is irrelevant. You can't just tack on details after you say something and expect someone to have read your mind. Are you really so stupid that you don't realize you just insulted me because you're being fucking stupid? "Lawl I said something fucking dumb but it's actually really smart didn't you know I have this whole convoluted reasoning to insult you?" Maybe if you didn't speak so brainlessly I wouldn't speak to you like you need help chewing your food but as it is I think this goes completely over your head. Even if you weren't just looking for excuses to try to appear "better" than me, you know the guy not talking about running people over for their own amusement, it would still be something fucking dumb to say and the fact that you can't get your point across without trying to UNMAN me just tells me you're so in your feelings that deep down you agree, you said some stupid ass shit.
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
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Blazers mate, calm your farm!
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
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Re: defund the police. [Re: Amanita86] 1
#26778451 - 06/24/20 05:47 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Right and your response to him was..? Keep your bias and shove it up your ass. I'm being called shit because he wants to laugh about running people over for having differing opinions and you're coming at me for responding to it? Like, fuck off little boy.
Edited by larry.fisherman (06/24/20 05:49 AM)
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
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My advice would be it’s best not to interfere with the operation of a motor vehicle, especially using your body.
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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gopher
Coffee Bean Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/22/17
Posts: 12,999
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 32 minutes, 42 seconds
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Re: defund the police. [Re: Amanita86]
#26778569 - 06/24/20 07:07 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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there was a story here a week or 2 ago where some animal activist were protesting infront of a slaughter house because a new law that said you couldnt block truck coming and going from places like these, some women was struck and killed by a truck leaving with a load, I immediately thought it was some dumb kid, but then they said she was 65 or something like that, they said its unknown if the truck driver will face charges, so I am assuming she jumped infront of the truck last moment, I would think otherwise the truck driver would be charged
-------------------- For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome. Since Disney has obtained tremendous value from the public domain, knows how important the public domain is, and is firmly determined to never contribute anything to it. My pronouns are He and Him, and my adjectives are Fat and Jazzy
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
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Re: defund the police. [Re: Amanita86]
#26778606 - 06/24/20 07:26 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said:


My advice would be it’s best not to interfere with the operation of a motor vehicle, especially using your body.
Why is that? Because I don't give much creedence to the bullshit that comes out of your cliquey ass? Be consistent and what you say might matter, otherwise you're just being a little shit playing defense for no other reason than to defend someone who was out of line.
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
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I have been consistent. Perhaps you hadn’t noticed due to the tantrum you’re having...
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Quote:
viraldrome said:
Quote:
TheStallionMang said:
Quote:
tyrannicalrex said:Do you think the ones in power are going to relinquish ANY fucking thing(s) they have?
No, people in power NEVER give up power willingly. It must be taken from their cold dead hand
Hatred, anger, and racism must be bred out of humans the same way that aggressive traits were bred out of the more "family friendly" breeds of dogs. Y We must kill off the aggressive ones before they reproduce and after a few (or possibly many) generations you will begin to see a difference.
You can't teach stupid and you can't unlearn racism
So you want to Euthanize racists? Like gas them in an oven? For having a different opinion than you? You know opinions aren't genetic traits right? Like two liberal professors can have a racist kid.
The people's whose racist attitudes do the most damage would never be caught waving a nazi flag or going to a hate rally, how exactly are you going to weed them out in your genocidal utopia? Like the racist landlord who wont rent to blacks, or the bank manager who denies them loans, or the teacher who gives up on them. All of those people do way more damage than openly racist losers.
Truth! (unfortunately)
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