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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Why is life a bitch and then you die?
    #26727456 - 06/07/20 08:02 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

We live in a world with problems. The big and little problems in our lives, ever-present and ever-evolving; and the vast multitude of problems in our cities, countries and the world. Every manner of problem and suffering. What is the principle in Nature that causes this? Why must everything be so wrong? What makes such a perfectly promising planet, in a universe with so much potential – so very imperfect?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26727491 - 06/07/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Well this short answer IMO is that man thinks they know how things should be, and the way they think things should be is never aligned with anything natural.
When you think you understand something that you clearly do not, it leads to ever-growing justifications, complexity, and convolutions.
Cultures, religions, societies, governments, they are all a mess because nobody at any point ever attempted to live in accordance with the pace and necessities of natural systems. :shrug:

How can you come up with any solutions to big or small problems when you cannot even examine the crumbled foundations of our own cultural and societal preconceptions.
Do we really need money to live? No. Then why does our entire system run on money? Money and profits alone are likely the cause of most of the worlds problems.


--------------------
¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Tmethyl]
    #26727497 - 06/07/20 08:24 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Though, I would refer to Mckenna's wisdom here.
I think he struggled with the same questions you're asking, and he once said something along the lines of:
"This is what it's like when a species departs for the stars, it's a fire in a mad house."

Perhaps this is just the way it has to be, to get where we're going, wherever that is.


--------------------
¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26727504 - 06/07/20 08:26 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Primarily the cost of goods. If the cost of goods was zero, or very close to zero, then we could make everyone's life a virtual utopia. For example, if the cost of housing was very near zero, then the government could provide everyone with housing for free, and the total cost would be almost nothing. Same with food, clothing, anything. Even if it wasn't the government, if housing a person costed less than 1 cent then a single person could opt to house millions using almost no money. One generous millionaire could house the world many times over.

If the cost of a good is near zero, it becomes so cheap that you can provide it to everyone effectively for free. Sure, it may cost $10 to provide food to 10 million, but think about what you could do if food was that cheap. If the cost of all goods was near zero, we'd live in a virtual utopia.

If we could manufacture goods at an extremely large scale in a totally automated and highly efficient fashion, we could drive down the cost of many goods to near zero, but it'd require a massive scale of automation, massive power efficiency, probably a lot of tech and knowhow that we don't have yet. But it is conceivable.

Imagine a massive totally automated factory that can produce anything, requires almost no electricity, and produces billions of whatever it makes. If there was such a thing, you could drive down the cost of goods enormously.

Housing is a bit more difficult because you'd have to automate the building process, which is physically intensive and difficult for machines to automate. You'd also have to automate the harvesting and preparation of the required building materials, and you'd have to do all that on the least amount of electricity possible. Alternatively, you could use a lot of electricity, but opt to drive the cost of electricity to zero, which is doable if you build enough large scale high power nuclear power plants (or if we had fusion plants, etc.).

Doing stuff like this is conceivable, but it'd require the creation of a lot of new technology that doesn't exist right now.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: nooneman]
    #26727543 - 06/07/20 08:38 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I think unlimited energy would go a long way toward creating the conditions you describe, but I suspect it would only be a partial answer.

Would people really be happy if they were spoon fed all the material goods they needed?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Rahz]
    #26727583 - 06/07/20 08:57 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Would people really be happy if they were spoon fed all the material goods they needed?




If I wasn't forced to work and all my material needs were met, regardless of my income, I would simply do the things I love.
I'd have time for things I'm passionate about. I think that's the case for most people, and I think people who are able to follow their
passions lead a more fulfilling and engaged life, filled with purpose, and yes happiness.
I was able to do this for a short time, and I can attest.

Sure there are going to be people who would rather just sit around, but there are people who would rather just sit around right now.


--------------------
¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: nooneman]
    #26727597 - 06/07/20 09:08 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Dq,

The story that is my psychic life is a great big conventional lie in the same way that the a movie is a lie - in that it’s apparent in that I perceive it with my mind’s eye - yet - it’s absent in that it has never really occurred in space time as I have perceived it to, just like how a magic trick done by a magician is not done the way the audience perceived it to initially be.
Yet, in the same way that I’m inclined to be taken up with that movie or fooled by a magic trick, I’m also taken up with and fooled by my psychic life, as if by some force of momentum & conditioning - like being under a spell. 
Yet when I recognize this illusory trick as an unoriginated situation I am no longer convinced of its reality.  In effect, becoming less swayed by its appearance and the belief that it represents something concrete or real. 
Seeing from that point of clarity, I say that the World is neither perfect nor imperfect, but is somehow beyond any such distinction.
  At that point of not-knowing I can no longer say life is a bitch or that it’s not a bitch or that I die or don’t die, because I’m no longer convinced that things were really ever as truly real as they seem to be.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (06/08/20 08:30 AM)


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #26728013 - 06/08/20 03:12 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

It really, really, really depends on the way(s) in which you choose to orient your consciousness.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineMagenta
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26728034 - 06/08/20 03:47 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Bob bless you, you poor lost soul.



--------------------


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Tmethyl]
    #26728336 - 06/08/20 07:49 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I think it would be a great experiment, but not everybody is like you and they don't just sit around.

It would probably be a good thing. "Sometimes, simply by sitting, the soul collects wisdom" - Zen proverb


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26728415 - 06/08/20 08:41 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
It really, really, really depends on the way(s) in which you choose to orient your consciousness.



life is not just a toilet and then you flush, a stove and then you eat, a car and then you go, a drug and then you high.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: nooneman]
    #26728425 - 06/08/20 08:45 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Primarily the cost of goods. If the cost of goods was zero, or very close to zero, then we could make everyone's life a virtual utopia. For example, if the cost of housing was very near zero, then the government could provide everyone with housing for free, and the total cost would be almost nothing. Same with food, clothing, anything. Even if it wasn't the government, if housing a person costed less than 1 cent then a single person could opt to house millions using almost no money. One generous millionaire could house the world many times over.

If the cost of a good is near zero, it becomes so cheap that you can provide it to everyone effectively for free. Sure, it may cost $10 to provide food to 10 million, but think about what you could do if food was that cheap. If the cost of all goods was near zero, we'd live in a virtual utopia.

If we could manufacture goods at an extremely large scale in a totally automated and highly efficient fashion, we could drive down the cost of many goods to near zero, but it'd require a massive scale of automation, massive power efficiency, probably a lot of tech and knowhow that we don't have yet. But it is conceivable.

Imagine a massive totally automated factory that can produce anything, requires almost no electricity, and produces billions of whatever it makes. If there was such a thing, you could drive down the cost of goods enormously.

Housing is a bit more difficult because you'd have to automate the building process, which is physically intensive and difficult for machines to automate. You'd also have to automate the harvesting and preparation of the required building materials, and you'd have to do all that on the least amount of electricity possible. Alternatively, you could use a lot of electricity, but opt to drive the cost of electricity to zero, which is doable if you build enough large scale high power nuclear power plants (or if we had fusion plants, etc.).

Doing stuff like this is conceivable, but it'd require the creation of a lot of new technology that doesn't exist right now.





I appreciate the thoughtful reply. I think, though, that what I am talking about goes beyond just material comforts and needs being met. I guess I had more in mind the notion of the Buddhists that existence is suffering, whatever the nature of that existence, and the question is, why? In posting this, I do not really expect a final answer, but I just think it's interesting that everything is so off-kilter, when the laws of physics don't seem to require it.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26728433 - 06/08/20 08:49 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

during transition from one state to another, physics does require that the kilters shift.


--------------------
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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Tmethyl]
    #26728438 - 06/08/20 08:53 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tmethyl said:
Well this short answer IMO is that man thinks they know how things should be, and the way they think things should be is never aligned with anything natural.
When you think you understand something that you clearly do not, it leads to ever-growing justifications, complexity, and convolutions.
Cultures, religions, societies, governments, they are all a mess because nobody at any point ever attempted to live in accordance with the pace and necessities of natural systems. :shrug:

How can you come up with any solutions to big or small problems when you cannot even examine the crumbled foundations of our own cultural and societal preconceptions.
Do we really need money to live? No. Then why does our entire system run on money? Money and profits alone are likely the cause of most of the worlds problems.




Quote:

Tmethyl said:
Though, I would refer to Mckenna's wisdom here.
I think he struggled with the same questions you're asking, and he once said something along the lines of:
"This is what it's like when a species departs for the stars, it's a fire in a mad house."

Perhaps this is just the way it has to be, to get where we're going, wherever that is.





I think the notion that when one forcibly goes against the grain of natural systems, and dysfunction tends always to develop, is a sound one. I think the practice of civilization itself has caused so much suffering it's impossible to know where to begin just detailing the sources of it. I often wonder if the Buddhist notion of "existence is suffering" even applies to people living in a state of nature (but that is a whole different thread). In any case, I wholeheartedly agree that by violating natural principles, we have put everything into a tail-spin, and indeed this may be even the primary reason why everything is so off-center.

And yes, as they say in the Sopranos, "motherfucking, cocksucking money" is at the root of all of it. It's both a cause and a manifestation of insanity, in which domesticated primates are scampering and clawing around trying to acquire as many green tickets as they can.

(That's a great quote, btw).


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26728445 - 06/08/20 08:56 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
during transition from one state to another, physics does require that the kilters shift.





I don't know what you mean, but there is nothing in the known laws of physics that stipulates living organisms must suffer so much more than necessary and dysfunction must be rampant.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26728488 - 06/08/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

physics is about simpler systems interacting, biology adds the complexity of physics (which has particles shifting in activity and alignment between states) to the complexity of the protoplasmic medium against membranes of various permeability, in a matrix of tissues and other environments. All of that even before conscious impressions can be established and connected.

basically change of state is the baseline of life, and change is a bitch (gotta love bitches) and then you die, but that's no biggie, everyone dies.


--------------------
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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26728817 - 06/08/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
We live in a world with problems. The big and little problems in our lives, ever-present and ever-evolving; and the vast multitude of problems in our cities, countries and the world. Every manner of problem and suffering. What is the principle in Nature that causes this? Why must everything be so wrong? What makes such a perfectly promising planet, in a universe with so much potential – so very imperfect?




That's what this dream is. 

Simply, put:

We are all one with God.  Nothing can ever be other than this, it's impossible.

But, there was a flicker of a thought, an idea... that we could be other.  Separate, with our own free will apart from God's.

In this dream we are in, we are experiencing what it would be like were it possible that this crazy thought was a reality.

The split from God, as it were, the idea of a separate will.  God doesn't forbid it, and he doesn't punish us, he lets us try, and experience what it is like being shattered into separate parts with separate wills.

Never quite makes us happy, does it?

When we finally figure out this is the case, and discover it actually makes us happier to share a will with God, we stop having this dream and go back = enlightenment.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Forrester]
    #26728908 - 06/08/20 01:03 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

as long as I keep God out of the conversation, there is no confusion.

People actually invented god as an alternative to funding a police department.
"Just convince people that they are being watched full time by a jealous and difficult god and they will behave." that is the idea. Commandments from god, received from on high. Hell of a mushroom trip!

Some great poets like Rumi, can weave god into their dialog such that it is a beautiful thing to hear, and while not too conflicting with orthodox religion, it is not the same thing at all. (I think Rumi is really talking about the principle of consciousness in each of us. Like prana.)

If I need to translate I substitute the word "nature" for "god" and if that does not work I dismantle the paragraph or leave it undigested.


--------------------
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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26728928 - 06/08/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Tmethyl said:
Well this short answer IMO is that man thinks they know how things should be, and the way they think things should be is never aligned with anything natural.
When you think you understand something that you clearly do not, it leads to ever-growing justifications, complexity, and convolutions.
Cultures, religions, societies, governments, they are all a mess because nobody at any point ever attempted to live in accordance with the pace and necessities of natural systems. :shrug:

How can you come up with any solutions to big or small problems when you cannot even examine the crumbled foundations of our own cultural and societal preconceptions.
Do we really need money to live? No. Then why does our entire system run on money? Money and profits alone are likely the cause of most of the worlds problems.




Quote:

Tmethyl said:
Though, I would refer to Mckenna's wisdom here.
I think he struggled with the same questions you're asking, and he once said something along the lines of:
"This is what it's like when a species departs for the stars, it's a fire in a mad house."

Perhaps this is just the way it has to be, to get where we're going, wherever that is.





I think the notion that when one forcibly goes against the grain of natural systems, and dysfunction tends always to develop, is a sound one. I think the practice of civilization itself has caused so much suffering it's impossible to know where to begin just detailing the sources of it. I often wonder if the Buddhist notion of "existence is suffering" even applies to people living in a state of nature (but that is a whole different thread). In any case, I wholeheartedly agree that by violating natural principles, we have put everything into a tail-spin, and indeed this may be even the primary reason why everything is so off-center.

And yes, as they say in the Sopranos, "motherfucking, cocksucking money" is at the root of all of it. It's both a cause and a manifestation of insanity, in which domesticated primates are scampering and clawing around trying to acquire as many green tickets as they can.

(That's a great quote, btw).




I found the clip this quote is from, there is some alarmingly accurate predictions McKenna made in the clip as well,
and they connect oddly well with your original questions.

4mins


--------------------
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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Forrester]
    #26728940 - 06/08/20 01:14 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:

That's what this dream is. 

Simply, put:

We are all one with God.  Nothing can ever be other than this, it's impossible.

But, there was a flicker of a thought, an idea... that we could be other.  Separate, with our own free will apart from God's.

In this dream we are in, we are experiencing what it would be like were it possible that this crazy thought was a reality.

The split from God, as it were, the idea of a separate will.  God doesn't forbid it, and he doesn't punish us, he lets us try, and experience what it is like being shattered into separate parts with separate wills.

Never quite makes us happy, does it?

When we finally figure out this is the case, and discover it actually makes us happier to share a will with God, we stop having this dream and go back = enlightenment.





I like your thinking. As RGV said, we can alternate between the words "God" or "Nature," but we are really talking about the same thing. But presuming there is a God, indeed, we have gone very much against him historically. We have gone very much against Nature, too. So when you try to take a square civilization and put it into the round hole of a global ecosystem, serious issues develop. You make good points. :thumbup:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineCujllickduo
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Forrester]
    #26728951 - 06/08/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Know nearly enough to see the colours so vibrant every day, believe that's only life sharing the outside forest making your health further beyond anybody else's.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26729132 - 06/08/20 02:52 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I like your thinking. As RGV said, we can alternate between the words "God" or "Nature," but we are really talking about the same thing. But presuming there is a God, indeed, we have gone very much against him historically. We have gone very much against Nature, too. So when you try to take a square civilization and put it into the round hole of a global ecosystem, serious issues develop.




Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Some great poets like Rumi, can weave god into their dialog such that it is a beautiful thing to hear, and while not too conflicting with orthodox religion, it is not the same thing at all. (I think Rumi is really talking about the principle of consciousness in each of us. Like prana.)





Exactly, call it God, nature, the "higher self", superconscious, great spirit, whatever - it's all the same really. 

The term God comes with a lot of baggage these days, mostly I think due to religion's misinterpretation of spiritual concepts - I wonder sometimes, even as we ponder whether there is or isn't a god, is there actually even a disagreement between the two, or are we just arguing semantics over what the word means?

I mean, I don't believe in the bible's God as a 3rd party sky-wizard, but I believe there are ways humans are connected and nature itself seems to function as a whole, so do I believe in God?  Does it depend on whether or not I capitalize it or what...?


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Forrester]
    #26729563 - 06/08/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yes actually, it does depend but if we use the terms just to agree without agreeing, then what we say means different stuff. (and this substitution of terms is just a clever way of sidestepping differences).

When I say nature I mean the world and it's history back to the big bang which is beyond my imagination, but I do not mean creator (as intelligent agent), or judge (father figure), or angel or deity (superhuman).

And when I say spiritual I am talking about the mind especially sharing experiences between minds (people). being in synch, experiencing together. the brain enables and rewards spiritual experience with endorphins and dopamine.

Creation, physically then, is the agency free ongoing cascade from the big bang.

To me, while there is no agency of either gods or nature, there is a perceived connection between all of us which is part of the spiritual faculty known as mind which in turn is a phenomenon of the functioning physical brain - ergo nature.

The function of the brain basically is to take impressions into memory from nature, and link them together with learned responses like coordinated body movement, erudite linguistic expressions, or any of the other human things a finely calibrated, fully programmable complex electrical field generator like our brains might be able to do.

Mostly we stop at our skin, until you add the effect of hearing through which our consciousness expands to the limits of hearing and we overlap others nearby in a shared hearing event, one we can even dance to and so move as one. Anyway we are not unique among animals to have the spiritual quality that joins several to act as one.

did I go astray in the dead bitch thread or what!?!?


--------------------
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Invisibleremake
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26731589 - 06/09/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I think life is a building up to the orgasm of death. According to Acid.

Physical reality is something we seemingly cannot escape yet cannot hold on to.

This whole place is all we are, yet we're going to lose it eventually and apparently.

First we have to perhaps wonder if death truly is the worst thing that can happen to us.

What makes it bad other than its unknowable nature? Can we even fathom death? I don't think so.

I believe we are meaningful creatures in a sense that we create meaning out of everything with no real way of stopping. This is a meaningful experience to us. This is the most important thing we are aware of.

The whole "Universe" can only be pinpointed from our perspective. We are the loneliest species in existence. No one but ourselves to talk to.

The passion, pain and insanity is what makes it beautiful beyond belief. Once we experience relief. Even if...only brief...ly.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: remake] * 1
    #26731665 - 06/09/20 02:48 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I believe we are meaningful creatures in a sense that we create meaning out of everything with no real way of stopping. This is a meaningful experience to us.




My thoughts when someone expresses that life is meaningless. :thumbup:


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Tmethyl]
    #26737981 - 06/11/20 09:06 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tmethyl said:

Well this short answer IMO is that man thinks they know how things should be, and the way they think things should be is never aligned with anything natural.




:thumbup:

Strong attachment to desires and preferences for how life should be is one way we create suffering.

For example - the ideal of fairness is laudable, but it's rarely (if ever?) found in nature.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26738315 - 06/12/20 12:08 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Life really isn't a bitch...but you do die...thats not actually bad either..



--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26739255 - 06/12/20 10:38 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
We live in a world with problems. The big and little problems in our lives, ever-present and ever-evolving; and the vast multitude of problems in our cities, countries and the world. Every manner of problem and suffering. What is the principle in Nature that causes this? Why must everything be so wrong? What makes such a perfectly promising planet, in a universe with so much potential – so very imperfect?




To me this seems an anthropomorphic view: Inanimate nature does not suffer.

But all animate nature on earth is dependent on the sun (plants), or else eats other life forms (often while still alive), or else parasitizes*  other life forms; all this is regardless of humans. So the idea of the planet ever being "promising", seems very romantic to me. All life is very vulnerable, impermanent, and severely time limited, and to the degree there is self present, suffering is likely to occur. It is only our narrow personal view that makes it seem like something important is at stake, imo.

* About  50% of all animals are parasites, some very unpleasant. This is of course skipped over in Genesis & all religions, Disney, in the media, and by environmentalist movements - but it is the simple reality of how genes evolved to survive, a rather mechanical affair.

* Of course a few life forms (at the start of the food chain) at deep sea vents, for example, have a purely chemical metabolism, but the heat comes from the time of planetary formation. So they are also dependent, as well as vulnerable to being eaten, & in any case mortal.

As to why humans always fuck up every 'civilized' society, & many tribal societies, eventually; I suppose it is a matter  of rounding up the usual suspects.

Again this not unique to human society, Baboon society is a brutal affair, and chimpanzees are known to be genocidal.
Robert M. Sapolsky's books and videos are a good source re: Baboons and human psychology.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26739394 - 06/12/20 11:31 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

you speak of baboon society as if it were one thing.

not every clave or clan is the same as every other one.

just look at these guys https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=zXXFf0Q2bcU&feature=emb_logo


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26739398 - 06/12/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Excellent points. Regarding you comment about self, do you feel there is some objective reason why selves must suffer? Must all selves inherently suffer, or just a particular class of them? This actually has a lot to do with what I was trying to get at. Because I suppose if it weren't for our particular emotional responses to things, even despite the planet's imperfections, we would not regard them as such. If it weren't for our particular emotional responses.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26739497 - 06/12/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Excellent points. Regarding you comment about self, do you feel there is some objective reason why selves must suffer? Must all selves inherently suffer, or just a particular class of them? This actually has a lot to do with what I was trying to get at. Because I suppose if it weren't for our particular emotional responses to things, even despite the planet's imperfections, we would not regard them as such. If it weren't for our particular emotional responses.




"do you feel there is some objective reason why selves must suffer? Must all selves inherently suffer, ..."

.  Yes. The Buddhist view seems to make sense, to me. It says that believing in a unitary, unchanging, self, is not in accord with reality. Some times the words " not permanent, integral, & autonomous " * are used.
.    Self is not denied, without a social self we cannot function. But we tend to solidify this belief, just as our language nominalizes many verbs, etc.
.    In a nutshell because our notion of what self is, is erroneous, the results of acting from a mistaken belief must result in less than ideal consequences aka suffering.
(Many sources on Buddhism, go into much more detail and explain it better than I do.
They are freely available on the web, and many on this site, might also like to opine on such matters.)

*https://duckduckgo.com/?q=anatta buddhism meaning&t=hk&ia=web&iai=r1-6&page=1&sexp={"v7exp":"a"}

amusingly there is even a book with the title: "no self no problem"
by Anam Thubten Rinpoche
https://www.amazon.com/No-Self-Problem-Awakening-Nature/dp/1559394048/ref=sr_1_2?crid=ZJA7DO11REM3&dchild=1&keywords=no self no problem book&qid=1591985497&s=books&sprefix=no self,stripbooks,286&sr=1-2

and a 'Buddhist' book with the title: "don't take your life personally" by Ajahn Sumedho
https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Take-Your-Life-Personally/dp/0946672318/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1CZVLYD347NOK&dchild=1&keywords=don%27t+take+your+life+personally&qid=1591985603&s=books&sprefix=don%27t+take%2Cstripbooks%2C273&sr=1-1

So its a core idea, explained, by many accepted experts in the field, hence I won't waste folks' time, with my attempts at explaining it more here, other than a 'thumbnail bit' to answer the question.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26739519 - 06/12/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

It seems clear the system is set up such that suffering in some form is inevitable...  but that's kind of the trick for us to figure out, that it's only our perception of things that causes the suffering.  That we are separate mostly.  I think I'm kind of saying what laughingdog is, in a much crappier way... :crazy:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26739893 - 06/12/20 03:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I agree that the self is very involved when suffering is afoot.
However, conditions in the system cannot be ignored when it affects individuals badly.

the compassionate thing to do is to fix the system and help some people, if they are open to it, learn about anatta.

we can only do our part, i.e. cannot fix the whole thing single handedly, or even find any people that can get past their self.


--------------------
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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26740024 - 06/12/20 04:48 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the compassionate thing to do is to fix the system and help some people, if they are open to it, learn about anatta.





I do agree, although many of the spiritual traditions seem to hint that we should fix ourselves rather than try to fix the dream.

Certainly nothing wrong with trying to fix things where you can, but hasn't humanity already made it blatantly obvious, over and over again, that so many people with conflicting wills make it impossible to "fix the system"?  For anything but a brief moment anyway?


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Forrester]
    #26741117 - 06/13/20 06:05 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

there is no separation between the self and the system that the self exists within, I'm agreeing with you - start within, and do what you can to help.


--------------------
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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26741151 - 06/13/20 06:33 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

and more importantly read redgreenvines posts

like the one you just made

or maybe not as important

I think redgreenvines posts skulle være mere popular (more popular)

for example that post was very good to read

for the recipient and me!

made a prayer should have drawn (do what you can to help)

next he's sending me through college? (with a post)

things like that

crazy or sun-good

sunningly brilliant! :laugh:

:laugh:


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26741161 - 06/13/20 06:40 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

opposite of trump supporters

right now I was just trying to get it to be there more

the more honest and kind you are the more less you get (as in less is more) the more you clean up your garden operate positively

the more you get to be opposite of trump supporter or the more opposite to them you get

like you have to make your identity better and greater and what does that mean practically concretely

it means more honest

no destruction

more kind

being lifted out of it by the upbringing your parents gave you by how they taught you to act

the more you see the more you understand the more you get on land metaphorically (fish reptiles)

the more you work

and work on yourself

and make an effort

and steer in the right direction

and garden

the further you get


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


Edited by Ferdinando (06/13/20 06:40 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26741281 - 06/13/20 08:05 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I blame the internet


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26746456 - 06/15/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Excellent points. Regarding you comment about self, do you feel there is some objective reason why selves must suffer? Must all selves inherently suffer, or just a particular class of them? This actually has a lot to do with what I was trying to get at. Because I suppose if it weren't for our particular emotional responses to things, even despite the planet's imperfections, we would not regard them as such. If it weren't for our particular emotional responses.




.  If one goes to the trip reports sub forum there is a report dated 05/28/20  & titled: "The sound of silence...."    which contains the following statement: " I felt so in tune with my body and felt each and every cell that lives and breathes as me. What soon became obvious to me was that every moment, my cells were dying and being reborn simultaneously, all the time. My body was regenerating life every moment and I experienced death every moment. Only to be reborn in the next moment"

.  This is in accord with the Buddhist notion that self is not a noun. Or what may be called a nominalization, as referenced above.

.  The social self, which gets, more or less, fixed, (in the of sense 'frozen'), in western culture, as evidenced by social security #s, etc., & which never get changed throughout a lifetime; is shown to be a construct, in Dorothy Lee's work, which shows how this aspect of 'self' may be modified in other cultures.

Freedom and Culture
by Dorothy D. Lee

"In this well-known collection of essays, Dorothy Lee offers her readers an expedition into various world cultures, an imaginary field trip that reveals different views of autonomy, concepts of the individual in society, and interpretations of personal freedom. Dorothy Lee brings Wintu, Hopi, Tikopia, Trobriand, and many other cultures into focus, often contrasting them with our social structure, delineating the differences in language patterns, responsibilities as citizens of a community, and the appreciation of individual expression. The point of view of this work, a unique perspective on these contemporary materials, is achieved through Dorothy Lee's ability to fuse the anthropologist's contact with many cultures and a personal concern with the immediate responsibilities of citizenship, homelife, and motherhood. The result is a blending of science an the humanities-a readable, warm, and concrete account of freedom, being, and existence. Dorothy Lee's work provides possible alternatives to the social direction often thoughtlessly followed by modern man. Not prescriptive or "angry," it implicitly challenges the sophistication and stimulates the creative imagination of the reader."

Seems to me she provides a nice contrast to some of Marvin Harris' views.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26746758 - 06/15/20 02:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks ld. :thumbup:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26753222 - 06/18/20 01:56 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
We live in a world with problems. The big and little problems in our lives, ever-present and ever-evolving; and the vast multitude of problems in our cities, countries and the world. Every manner of problem and suffering. What is the principle in Nature that causes this? Why must everything be so wrong? What makes such a perfectly promising planet, in a universe with so much potential – so very imperfect?



Ah, such is life.
I got 99 problems and heres another one.
In the words of Joe Dirts father, "It just does."

On a biological level problems let you know something needs fixed probably the more aware you are the more problems you see.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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OfflineCujllickduo
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: hTx]
    #26753235 - 06/18/20 02:06 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Therefore you knew it's clout


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