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OfflineCujllickduo
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Forrester]
    #26728951 - 06/08/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Know nearly enough to see the colours so vibrant every day, believe that's only life sharing the outside forest making your health further beyond anybody else's.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26729132 - 06/08/20 02:52 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I like your thinking. As RGV said, we can alternate between the words "God" or "Nature," but we are really talking about the same thing. But presuming there is a God, indeed, we have gone very much against him historically. We have gone very much against Nature, too. So when you try to take a square civilization and put it into the round hole of a global ecosystem, serious issues develop.




Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Some great poets like Rumi, can weave god into their dialog such that it is a beautiful thing to hear, and while not too conflicting with orthodox religion, it is not the same thing at all. (I think Rumi is really talking about the principle of consciousness in each of us. Like prana.)





Exactly, call it God, nature, the "higher self", superconscious, great spirit, whatever - it's all the same really. 

The term God comes with a lot of baggage these days, mostly I think due to religion's misinterpretation of spiritual concepts - I wonder sometimes, even as we ponder whether there is or isn't a god, is there actually even a disagreement between the two, or are we just arguing semantics over what the word means?

I mean, I don't believe in the bible's God as a 3rd party sky-wizard, but I believe there are ways humans are connected and nature itself seems to function as a whole, so do I believe in God?  Does it depend on whether or not I capitalize it or what...?


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Forrester]
    #26729563 - 06/08/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yes actually, it does depend but if we use the terms just to agree without agreeing, then what we say means different stuff. (and this substitution of terms is just a clever way of sidestepping differences).

When I say nature I mean the world and it's history back to the big bang which is beyond my imagination, but I do not mean creator (as intelligent agent), or judge (father figure), or angel or deity (superhuman).

And when I say spiritual I am talking about the mind especially sharing experiences between minds (people). being in synch, experiencing together. the brain enables and rewards spiritual experience with endorphins and dopamine.

Creation, physically then, is the agency free ongoing cascade from the big bang.

To me, while there is no agency of either gods or nature, there is a perceived connection between all of us which is part of the spiritual faculty known as mind which in turn is a phenomenon of the functioning physical brain - ergo nature.

The function of the brain basically is to take impressions into memory from nature, and link them together with learned responses like coordinated body movement, erudite linguistic expressions, or any of the other human things a finely calibrated, fully programmable complex electrical field generator like our brains might be able to do.

Mostly we stop at our skin, until you add the effect of hearing through which our consciousness expands to the limits of hearing and we overlap others nearby in a shared hearing event, one we can even dance to and so move as one. Anyway we are not unique among animals to have the spiritual quality that joins several to act as one.

did I go astray in the dead bitch thread or what!?!?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisibleremake
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26731589 - 06/09/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I think life is a building up to the orgasm of death. According to Acid.

Physical reality is something we seemingly cannot escape yet cannot hold on to.

This whole place is all we are, yet we're going to lose it eventually and apparently.

First we have to perhaps wonder if death truly is the worst thing that can happen to us.

What makes it bad other than its unknowable nature? Can we even fathom death? I don't think so.

I believe we are meaningful creatures in a sense that we create meaning out of everything with no real way of stopping. This is a meaningful experience to us. This is the most important thing we are aware of.

The whole "Universe" can only be pinpointed from our perspective. We are the loneliest species in existence. No one but ourselves to talk to.

The passion, pain and insanity is what makes it beautiful beyond belief. Once we experience relief. Even if...only brief...ly.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: remake] * 1
    #26731665 - 06/09/20 02:48 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I believe we are meaningful creatures in a sense that we create meaning out of everything with no real way of stopping. This is a meaningful experience to us.




My thoughts when someone expresses that life is meaningless. :thumbup:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Tmethyl]
    #26737981 - 06/11/20 09:06 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tmethyl said:

Well this short answer IMO is that man thinks they know how things should be, and the way they think things should be is never aligned with anything natural.




:thumbup:

Strong attachment to desires and preferences for how life should be is one way we create suffering.

For example - the ideal of fairness is laudable, but it's rarely (if ever?) found in nature.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26738315 - 06/12/20 12:08 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Life really isn't a bitch...but you do die...thats not actually bad either..



--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26739255 - 06/12/20 10:38 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
We live in a world with problems. The big and little problems in our lives, ever-present and ever-evolving; and the vast multitude of problems in our cities, countries and the world. Every manner of problem and suffering. What is the principle in Nature that causes this? Why must everything be so wrong? What makes such a perfectly promising planet, in a universe with so much potential – so very imperfect?




To me this seems an anthropomorphic view: Inanimate nature does not suffer.

But all animate nature on earth is dependent on the sun (plants), or else eats other life forms (often while still alive), or else parasitizes*  other life forms; all this is regardless of humans. So the idea of the planet ever being "promising", seems very romantic to me. All life is very vulnerable, impermanent, and severely time limited, and to the degree there is self present, suffering is likely to occur. It is only our narrow personal view that makes it seem like something important is at stake, imo.

* About  50% of all animals are parasites, some very unpleasant. This is of course skipped over in Genesis & all religions, Disney, in the media, and by environmentalist movements - but it is the simple reality of how genes evolved to survive, a rather mechanical affair.

* Of course a few life forms (at the start of the food chain) at deep sea vents, for example, have a purely chemical metabolism, but the heat comes from the time of planetary formation. So they are also dependent, as well as vulnerable to being eaten, & in any case mortal.

As to why humans always fuck up every 'civilized' society, & many tribal societies, eventually; I suppose it is a matter  of rounding up the usual suspects.

Again this not unique to human society, Baboon society is a brutal affair, and chimpanzees are known to be genocidal.
Robert M. Sapolsky's books and videos are a good source re: Baboons and human psychology.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26739394 - 06/12/20 11:31 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

you speak of baboon society as if it were one thing.

not every clave or clan is the same as every other one.

just look at these guys https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=zXXFf0Q2bcU&feature=emb_logo


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26739398 - 06/12/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Excellent points. Regarding you comment about self, do you feel there is some objective reason why selves must suffer? Must all selves inherently suffer, or just a particular class of them? This actually has a lot to do with what I was trying to get at. Because I suppose if it weren't for our particular emotional responses to things, even despite the planet's imperfections, we would not regard them as such. If it weren't for our particular emotional responses.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26739497 - 06/12/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Excellent points. Regarding you comment about self, do you feel there is some objective reason why selves must suffer? Must all selves inherently suffer, or just a particular class of them? This actually has a lot to do with what I was trying to get at. Because I suppose if it weren't for our particular emotional responses to things, even despite the planet's imperfections, we would not regard them as such. If it weren't for our particular emotional responses.




"do you feel there is some objective reason why selves must suffer? Must all selves inherently suffer, ..."

.  Yes. The Buddhist view seems to make sense, to me. It says that believing in a unitary, unchanging, self, is not in accord with reality. Some times the words " not permanent, integral, & autonomous " * are used.
.    Self is not denied, without a social self we cannot function. But we tend to solidify this belief, just as our language nominalizes many verbs, etc.
.    In a nutshell because our notion of what self is, is erroneous, the results of acting from a mistaken belief must result in less than ideal consequences aka suffering.
(Many sources on Buddhism, go into much more detail and explain it better than I do.
They are freely available on the web, and many on this site, might also like to opine on such matters.)

*https://duckduckgo.com/?q=anatta buddhism meaning&t=hk&ia=web&iai=r1-6&page=1&sexp={"v7exp":"a"}

amusingly there is even a book with the title: "no self no problem"
by Anam Thubten Rinpoche
https://www.amazon.com/No-Self-Problem-Awakening-Nature/dp/1559394048/ref=sr_1_2?crid=ZJA7DO11REM3&dchild=1&keywords=no self no problem book&qid=1591985497&s=books&sprefix=no self,stripbooks,286&sr=1-2

and a 'Buddhist' book with the title: "don't take your life personally" by Ajahn Sumedho
https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Take-Your-Life-Personally/dp/0946672318/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1CZVLYD347NOK&dchild=1&keywords=don%27t+take+your+life+personally&qid=1591985603&s=books&sprefix=don%27t+take%2Cstripbooks%2C273&sr=1-1

So its a core idea, explained, by many accepted experts in the field, hence I won't waste folks' time, with my attempts at explaining it more here, other than a 'thumbnail bit' to answer the question.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26739519 - 06/12/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

It seems clear the system is set up such that suffering in some form is inevitable...  but that's kind of the trick for us to figure out, that it's only our perception of things that causes the suffering.  That we are separate mostly.  I think I'm kind of saying what laughingdog is, in a much crappier way... :crazy:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26739893 - 06/12/20 03:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I agree that the self is very involved when suffering is afoot.
However, conditions in the system cannot be ignored when it affects individuals badly.

the compassionate thing to do is to fix the system and help some people, if they are open to it, learn about anatta.

we can only do our part, i.e. cannot fix the whole thing single handedly, or even find any people that can get past their self.


--------------------
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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26740024 - 06/12/20 04:48 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the compassionate thing to do is to fix the system and help some people, if they are open to it, learn about anatta.





I do agree, although many of the spiritual traditions seem to hint that we should fix ourselves rather than try to fix the dream.

Certainly nothing wrong with trying to fix things where you can, but hasn't humanity already made it blatantly obvious, over and over again, that so many people with conflicting wills make it impossible to "fix the system"?  For anything but a brief moment anyway?


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Forrester]
    #26741117 - 06/13/20 06:05 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

there is no separation between the self and the system that the self exists within, I'm agreeing with you - start within, and do what you can to help.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26741151 - 06/13/20 06:33 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

and more importantly read redgreenvines posts

like the one you just made

or maybe not as important

I think redgreenvines posts skulle være mere popular (more popular)

for example that post was very good to read

for the recipient and me!

made a prayer should have drawn (do what you can to help)

next he's sending me through college? (with a post)

things like that

crazy or sun-good

sunningly brilliant! :laugh:

:laugh:


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26741161 - 06/13/20 06:40 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

opposite of trump supporters

right now I was just trying to get it to be there more

the more honest and kind you are the more less you get (as in less is more) the more you clean up your garden operate positively

the more you get to be opposite of trump supporter or the more opposite to them you get

like you have to make your identity better and greater and what does that mean practically concretely

it means more honest

no destruction

more kind

being lifted out of it by the upbringing your parents gave you by how they taught you to act

the more you see the more you understand the more you get on land metaphorically (fish reptiles)

the more you work

and work on yourself

and make an effort

and steer in the right direction

and garden

the further you get


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


Edited by Ferdinando (06/13/20 06:40 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26741281 - 06/13/20 08:05 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I blame the internet


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26746456 - 06/15/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Excellent points. Regarding you comment about self, do you feel there is some objective reason why selves must suffer? Must all selves inherently suffer, or just a particular class of them? This actually has a lot to do with what I was trying to get at. Because I suppose if it weren't for our particular emotional responses to things, even despite the planet's imperfections, we would not regard them as such. If it weren't for our particular emotional responses.




.  If one goes to the trip reports sub forum there is a report dated 05/28/20  & titled: "The sound of silence...."    which contains the following statement: " I felt so in tune with my body and felt each and every cell that lives and breathes as me. What soon became obvious to me was that every moment, my cells were dying and being reborn simultaneously, all the time. My body was regenerating life every moment and I experienced death every moment. Only to be reborn in the next moment"

.  This is in accord with the Buddhist notion that self is not a noun. Or what may be called a nominalization, as referenced above.

.  The social self, which gets, more or less, fixed, (in the of sense 'frozen'), in western culture, as evidenced by social security #s, etc., & which never get changed throughout a lifetime; is shown to be a construct, in Dorothy Lee's work, which shows how this aspect of 'self' may be modified in other cultures.

Freedom and Culture
by Dorothy D. Lee

"In this well-known collection of essays, Dorothy Lee offers her readers an expedition into various world cultures, an imaginary field trip that reveals different views of autonomy, concepts of the individual in society, and interpretations of personal freedom. Dorothy Lee brings Wintu, Hopi, Tikopia, Trobriand, and many other cultures into focus, often contrasting them with our social structure, delineating the differences in language patterns, responsibilities as citizens of a community, and the appreciation of individual expression. The point of view of this work, a unique perspective on these contemporary materials, is achieved through Dorothy Lee's ability to fuse the anthropologist's contact with many cultures and a personal concern with the immediate responsibilities of citizenship, homelife, and motherhood. The result is a blending of science an the humanities-a readable, warm, and concrete account of freedom, being, and existence. Dorothy Lee's work provides possible alternatives to the social direction often thoughtlessly followed by modern man. Not prescriptive or "angry," it implicitly challenges the sophistication and stimulates the creative imagination of the reader."

Seems to me she provides a nice contrast to some of Marvin Harris' views.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26746758 - 06/15/20 02:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks ld. :thumbup:


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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