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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Why is life a bitch and then you die?
#26727456 - 06/07/20 08:02 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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We live in a world with problems. The big and little problems in our lives, ever-present and ever-evolving; and the vast multitude of problems in our cities, countries and the world. Every manner of problem and suffering. What is the principle in Nature that causes this? Why must everything be so wrong? What makes such a perfectly promising planet, in a universe with so much potential – so very imperfect?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#26727491 - 06/07/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well this short answer IMO is that man thinks they know how things should be, and the way they think things should be is never aligned with anything natural. When you think you understand something that you clearly do not, it leads to ever-growing justifications, complexity, and convolutions. Cultures, religions, societies, governments, they are all a mess because nobody at any point ever attempted to live in accordance with the pace and necessities of natural systems. 
How can you come up with any solutions to big or small problems when you cannot even examine the crumbled foundations of our own cultural and societal preconceptions. Do we really need money to live? No. Then why does our entire system run on money? Money and profits alone are likely the cause of most of the worlds problems.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Tmethyl]
#26727497 - 06/07/20 08:24 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Though, I would refer to Mckenna's wisdom here. I think he struggled with the same questions you're asking, and he once said something along the lines of: "This is what it's like when a species departs for the stars, it's a fire in a mad house."
Perhaps this is just the way it has to be, to get where we're going, wherever that is.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,561
Loc: Utah
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#26727504 - 06/07/20 08:26 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Primarily the cost of goods. If the cost of goods was zero, or very close to zero, then we could make everyone's life a virtual utopia. For example, if the cost of housing was very near zero, then the government could provide everyone with housing for free, and the total cost would be almost nothing. Same with food, clothing, anything. Even if it wasn't the government, if housing a person costed less than 1 cent then a single person could opt to house millions using almost no money. One generous millionaire could house the world many times over.
If the cost of a good is near zero, it becomes so cheap that you can provide it to everyone effectively for free. Sure, it may cost $10 to provide food to 10 million, but think about what you could do if food was that cheap. If the cost of all goods was near zero, we'd live in a virtual utopia.
If we could manufacture goods at an extremely large scale in a totally automated and highly efficient fashion, we could drive down the cost of many goods to near zero, but it'd require a massive scale of automation, massive power efficiency, probably a lot of tech and knowhow that we don't have yet. But it is conceivable.
Imagine a massive totally automated factory that can produce anything, requires almost no electricity, and produces billions of whatever it makes. If there was such a thing, you could drive down the cost of goods enormously.
Housing is a bit more difficult because you'd have to automate the building process, which is physically intensive and difficult for machines to automate. You'd also have to automate the harvesting and preparation of the required building materials, and you'd have to do all that on the least amount of electricity possible. Alternatively, you could use a lot of electricity, but opt to drive the cost of electricity to zero, which is doable if you build enough large scale high power nuclear power plants (or if we had fusion plants, etc.).
Doing stuff like this is conceivable, but it'd require the creation of a lot of new technology that doesn't exist right now.
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: nooneman]
#26727543 - 06/07/20 08:38 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think unlimited energy would go a long way toward creating the conditions you describe, but I suspect it would only be a partial answer.
Would people really be happy if they were spoon fed all the material goods they needed?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Rahz]
#26727583 - 06/07/20 08:57 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Would people really be happy if they were spoon fed all the material goods they needed?
If I wasn't forced to work and all my material needs were met, regardless of my income, I would simply do the things I love. I'd have time for things I'm passionate about. I think that's the case for most people, and I think people who are able to follow their passions lead a more fulfilling and engaged life, filled with purpose, and yes happiness. I was able to do this for a short time, and I can attest.
Sure there are going to be people who would rather just sit around, but there are people who would rather just sit around right now.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: nooneman]
#26727597 - 06/07/20 09:08 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Dq,
The story that is my psychic life is a great big conventional lie in the same way that the a movie is a lie - in that it’s apparent in that I perceive it with my mind’s eye - yet - it’s absent in that it has never really occurred in space time as I have perceived it to, just like how a magic trick done by a magician is not done the way the audience perceived it to initially be. Yet, in the same way that I’m inclined to be taken up with that movie or fooled by a magic trick, I’m also taken up with and fooled by my psychic life, as if by some force of momentum & conditioning - like being under a spell. Yet when I recognize this illusory trick as an unoriginated situation I am no longer convinced of its reality. In effect, becoming less swayed by its appearance and the belief that it represents something concrete or real. Seeing from that point of clarity, I say that the World is neither perfect nor imperfect, but is somehow beyond any such distinction. At that point of not-knowing I can no longer say life is a bitch or that it’s not a bitch or that I die or don’t die, because I’m no longer convinced that things were really ever as truly real as they seem to be.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (06/08/20 08:30 AM)
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] 2
#26728013 - 06/08/20 03:12 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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It really, really, really depends on the way(s) in which you choose to orient your consciousness.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Magenta
I care!!


Registered: 06/14/09
Posts: 20,322
Loc: The land of plenty
Last seen: 2 months, 5 days
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26728034 - 06/08/20 03:47 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Bob bless you, you poor lost soul.
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Tmethyl]
#26728336 - 06/08/20 07:49 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think it would be a great experiment, but not everybody is like you and they don't just sit around.
It would probably be a good thing. "Sometimes, simply by sitting, the soul collects wisdom" - Zen proverb
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26728415 - 06/08/20 08:41 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: It really, really, really depends on the way(s) in which you choose to orient your consciousness.
life is not just a toilet and then you flush, a stove and then you eat, a car and then you go, a drug and then you high.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: nooneman]
#26728425 - 06/08/20 08:45 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Primarily the cost of goods. If the cost of goods was zero, or very close to zero, then we could make everyone's life a virtual utopia. For example, if the cost of housing was very near zero, then the government could provide everyone with housing for free, and the total cost would be almost nothing. Same with food, clothing, anything. Even if it wasn't the government, if housing a person costed less than 1 cent then a single person could opt to house millions using almost no money. One generous millionaire could house the world many times over.
If the cost of a good is near zero, it becomes so cheap that you can provide it to everyone effectively for free. Sure, it may cost $10 to provide food to 10 million, but think about what you could do if food was that cheap. If the cost of all goods was near zero, we'd live in a virtual utopia.
If we could manufacture goods at an extremely large scale in a totally automated and highly efficient fashion, we could drive down the cost of many goods to near zero, but it'd require a massive scale of automation, massive power efficiency, probably a lot of tech and knowhow that we don't have yet. But it is conceivable.
Imagine a massive totally automated factory that can produce anything, requires almost no electricity, and produces billions of whatever it makes. If there was such a thing, you could drive down the cost of goods enormously.
Housing is a bit more difficult because you'd have to automate the building process, which is physically intensive and difficult for machines to automate. You'd also have to automate the harvesting and preparation of the required building materials, and you'd have to do all that on the least amount of electricity possible. Alternatively, you could use a lot of electricity, but opt to drive the cost of electricity to zero, which is doable if you build enough large scale high power nuclear power plants (or if we had fusion plants, etc.).
Doing stuff like this is conceivable, but it'd require the creation of a lot of new technology that doesn't exist right now.
I appreciate the thoughtful reply. I think, though, that what I am talking about goes beyond just material comforts and needs being met. I guess I had more in mind the notion of the Buddhists that existence is suffering, whatever the nature of that existence, and the question is, why? In posting this, I do not really expect a final answer, but I just think it's interesting that everything is so off-kilter, when the laws of physics don't seem to require it.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26728433 - 06/08/20 08:49 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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during transition from one state to another, physics does require that the kilters shift.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Tmethyl]
#26728438 - 06/08/20 08:53 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tmethyl said: Well this short answer IMO is that man thinks they know how things should be, and the way they think things should be is never aligned with anything natural. When you think you understand something that you clearly do not, it leads to ever-growing justifications, complexity, and convolutions. Cultures, religions, societies, governments, they are all a mess because nobody at any point ever attempted to live in accordance with the pace and necessities of natural systems. 
How can you come up with any solutions to big or small problems when you cannot even examine the crumbled foundations of our own cultural and societal preconceptions. Do we really need money to live? No. Then why does our entire system run on money? Money and profits alone are likely the cause of most of the worlds problems.
Quote:
Tmethyl said: Though, I would refer to Mckenna's wisdom here. I think he struggled with the same questions you're asking, and he once said something along the lines of: "This is what it's like when a species departs for the stars, it's a fire in a mad house."
Perhaps this is just the way it has to be, to get where we're going, wherever that is.
I think the notion that when one forcibly goes against the grain of natural systems, and dysfunction tends always to develop, is a sound one. I think the practice of civilization itself has caused so much suffering it's impossible to know where to begin just detailing the sources of it. I often wonder if the Buddhist notion of "existence is suffering" even applies to people living in a state of nature (but that is a whole different thread). In any case, I wholeheartedly agree that by violating natural principles, we have put everything into a tail-spin, and indeed this may be even the primary reason why everything is so off-center.
And yes, as they say in the Sopranos, "motherfucking, cocksucking money" is at the root of all of it. It's both a cause and a manifestation of insanity, in which domesticated primates are scampering and clawing around trying to acquire as many green tickets as they can.
(That's a great quote, btw).
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26728445 - 06/08/20 08:56 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: during transition from one state to another, physics does require that the kilters shift.
I don't know what you mean, but there is nothing in the known laws of physics that stipulates living organisms must suffer so much more than necessary and dysfunction must be rampant.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26728488 - 06/08/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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physics is about simpler systems interacting, biology adds the complexity of physics (which has particles shifting in activity and alignment between states) to the complexity of the protoplasmic medium against membranes of various permeability, in a matrix of tissues and other environments. All of that even before conscious impressions can be established and connected.
basically change of state is the baseline of life, and change is a bitch (gotta love bitches) and then you die, but that's no biggie, everyone dies.
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Forrester
aspiring sociopath


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,351
Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26728817 - 06/08/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: We live in a world with problems. The big and little problems in our lives, ever-present and ever-evolving; and the vast multitude of problems in our cities, countries and the world. Every manner of problem and suffering. What is the principle in Nature that causes this? Why must everything be so wrong? What makes such a perfectly promising planet, in a universe with so much potential – so very imperfect?
That's what this dream is.
Simply, put:
We are all one with God. Nothing can ever be other than this, it's impossible.
But, there was a flicker of a thought, an idea... that we could be other. Separate, with our own free will apart from God's.
In this dream we are in, we are experiencing what it would be like were it possible that this crazy thought was a reality.
The split from God, as it were, the idea of a separate will. God doesn't forbid it, and he doesn't punish us, he lets us try, and experience what it is like being shattered into separate parts with separate wills.
Never quite makes us happy, does it?
When we finally figure out this is the case, and discover it actually makes us happier to share a will with God, we stop having this dream and go back = enlightenment.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Forrester]
#26728908 - 06/08/20 01:03 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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as long as I keep God out of the conversation, there is no confusion.
People actually invented god as an alternative to funding a police department. "Just convince people that they are being watched full time by a jealous and difficult god and they will behave." that is the idea. Commandments from god, received from on high. Hell of a mushroom trip!
Some great poets like Rumi, can weave god into their dialog such that it is a beautiful thing to hear, and while not too conflicting with orthodox religion, it is not the same thing at all. (I think Rumi is really talking about the principle of consciousness in each of us. Like prana.)
If I need to translate I substitute the word "nature" for "god" and if that does not work I dismantle the paragraph or leave it undigested.
--------------------
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#26728928 - 06/08/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Tmethyl said: Well this short answer IMO is that man thinks they know how things should be, and the way they think things should be is never aligned with anything natural. When you think you understand something that you clearly do not, it leads to ever-growing justifications, complexity, and convolutions. Cultures, religions, societies, governments, they are all a mess because nobody at any point ever attempted to live in accordance with the pace and necessities of natural systems. 
How can you come up with any solutions to big or small problems when you cannot even examine the crumbled foundations of our own cultural and societal preconceptions. Do we really need money to live? No. Then why does our entire system run on money? Money and profits alone are likely the cause of most of the worlds problems.
Quote:
Tmethyl said: Though, I would refer to Mckenna's wisdom here. I think he struggled with the same questions you're asking, and he once said something along the lines of: "This is what it's like when a species departs for the stars, it's a fire in a mad house."
Perhaps this is just the way it has to be, to get where we're going, wherever that is.
I think the notion that when one forcibly goes against the grain of natural systems, and dysfunction tends always to develop, is a sound one. I think the practice of civilization itself has caused so much suffering it's impossible to know where to begin just detailing the sources of it. I often wonder if the Buddhist notion of "existence is suffering" even applies to people living in a state of nature (but that is a whole different thread). In any case, I wholeheartedly agree that by violating natural principles, we have put everything into a tail-spin, and indeed this may be even the primary reason why everything is so off-center.
And yes, as they say in the Sopranos, "motherfucking, cocksucking money" is at the root of all of it. It's both a cause and a manifestation of insanity, in which domesticated primates are scampering and clawing around trying to acquire as many green tickets as they can.
(That's a great quote, btw).
I found the clip this quote is from, there is some alarmingly accurate predictions McKenna made in the clip as well, and they connect oddly well with your original questions.
4mins
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: Why is life a bitch and then you die? [Re: Forrester]
#26728940 - 06/08/20 01:14 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said:
That's what this dream is.
Simply, put:
We are all one with God. Nothing can ever be other than this, it's impossible.
But, there was a flicker of a thought, an idea... that we could be other. Separate, with our own free will apart from God's.
In this dream we are in, we are experiencing what it would be like were it possible that this crazy thought was a reality.
The split from God, as it were, the idea of a separate will. God doesn't forbid it, and he doesn't punish us, he lets us try, and experience what it is like being shattered into separate parts with separate wills.
Never quite makes us happy, does it?
When we finally figure out this is the case, and discover it actually makes us happier to share a will with God, we stop having this dream and go back = enlightenment.
I like your thinking. As RGV said, we can alternate between the words "God" or "Nature," but we are really talking about the same thing. But presuming there is a God, indeed, we have gone very much against him historically. We have gone very much against Nature, too. So when you try to take a square civilization and put it into the round hole of a global ecosystem, serious issues develop. You make good points.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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