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Offlineenjoi-more
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Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 125
Last seen: 1 month, 30 days
Re: LSD "off-switch" developed by psychedelic pharmaceutical company [Re: Holybullshit]
    #26651922 - 05/06/20 02:02 AM (1 month, 30 days ago)

This is a good step as it would make me feel more comfortable knowing that's an option.. However I would avoid it at all costs. Trips especially when negative 'could' leave impressions if abruptly stopped without being worked out. I've read this from lsd: psychotherapy and he even said some issues patients have would require multiple trips to resolve.


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OfflineHolybullshit
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Registered: 01/06/19
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Re: LSD "off-switch" developed by psychedelic pharmaceutical company [Re: enjoi-more] * 1
    #26652303 - 05/06/20 08:29 AM (1 month, 30 days ago)

That's a good point, and I'm sure it would be option #1, but if a patient were forced to endure an 8+ hour hellish experience(especially if stopping it was an option) I think the odds have "trying again" or participating in future sessions would drop dramatically.

But, honestly I'd be surprised if much could be accomplished in one session alone...well, I guess a subject could be broached under the effects of LSD and then perhaps the patient would be comfortable exploring it further while sober...but psychotherapy is generally a long, often grueling, process. Reality doesn't match the way it is portayed in entertainment media where "breakthroughs" occur at once and the patient is "cured", it's more about chipping away at it and using requires repetition to instill long term changes to thinking and behavior.


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Offlinepolaritymind
relaxed attention
I'm a teapot

Registered: 10/10/16
Posts: 535
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 22 hours, 26 minutes
Re: LSD "off-switch" developed by psychedelic pharmaceutical company [Re: enjoi-more]
    #26657234 - 05/08/20 01:32 PM (1 month, 27 days ago)

Absolutely, Grof is the man, he is the only guy who ever really said this, and it is very well documented with him and very thorough. I think that will be a job of the people in this psychedelic renaissance, to pick up where he left off, so many of the people who even did LSD work then didnt even ever pick up on this very important facct, even in the 60s when it was still legal and much more common among psychiatrists and researchers.


--------------------
"to affirm life is to also affirm death"
-Albert hofmann


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Offlinepolaritymind
relaxed attention
I'm a teapot

Registered: 10/10/16
Posts: 535
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 22 hours, 26 minutes
Re: LSD "off-switch" developed by psychedelic pharmaceutical company [Re: Holybullshit]
    #26657242 - 05/08/20 01:37 PM (1 month, 27 days ago)

And absolutely yes to this as well. This is what worries me about the current model in studies, that it's always supposed to be "One session of psilocybin creates sustained remission of depression". Actually, and this is not that much talked about but was also admitted publicly, in those studies, depression tends to come back after 3-6 months, e.g Ros Watts talked about this, and this will often be even more cruel to the patient since they have had a glimpse what a healthy life is like and then might go back to being "locked" in their bedroom by their disease.
So yeah, I get wanting to convince the public and legislators of the power and relative safety of psychedelics, esp if you only take them once compared to taking an Antidepressant with physical toxicity and side effects (like suicide!) for the rest of your life. But I also fear this will set up incorrect expectations. Never forget, that the media shitstorm in the 60s was precluded by a phase of haling it as a new wonder cure, a generally common pattern in journalism, one-sided "praising as a cure-all/panacea" or "going after something as a wholly bad thing".


--------------------
"to affirm life is to also affirm death"
-Albert hofmann


Edited by polaritymind (05/08/20 01:39 PM)


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OfflineHolybullshit
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Registered: 01/06/19
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Re: LSD "off-switch" developed by psychedelic pharmaceutical company [Re: polaritymind]
    #26659335 - 05/09/20 08:32 AM (1 month, 27 days ago)

I think what you are seeing there, and what a lot of people are conflating, are the pharmacologic anti-depressant effects of psychedelics vs. their utility in psychotherapy. I think these 2 treatment methods should be pursued separately, or at the very least be acknowledged and accounted for when exploring/creating treatment regimens.

If taking advantage of its pharmacologic actions it needs to be recognized that remission is almost certainly temporary and a re-administration schedule should be structured in a way that provides the most stability to the patient. But if using them for psychotherapy you need to make sure patients understand that while they may "feel" better after one session they need to continue their treatment with follow up talk therapy sessions(though not necessarily under the effects each time) to get real lasting benefit.


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InvisiblebadchadS
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 12,899
Re: LSD "off-switch" developed by psychedelic pharmaceutical company [Re: Holybullshit]
    #26659823 - 05/09/20 01:38 PM (1 month, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Holybullshit said:
I think what you are seeing there, and what a lot of people are conflating, are the pharmacologic anti-depressant effects of psychedelics vs. their utility in psychotherapy.




One of the challenges here, is that in the current, professional research the pharmacologic effects are being studied within the context of psychotherapy, so its difficult to separate the two.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineHolybullshit
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Registered: 01/06/19
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Re: LSD "off-switch" developed by psychedelic pharmaceutical company [Re: badchad]
    #26660516 - 05/09/20 07:38 PM (1 month, 26 days ago)

It'd be difficult to conduct experiments evaluating the effect of just the talk therapy sessions(obviously can not be placebo controlled)...but not necessarily when crafting a treatment regimen. You don't have one session of psychotherapy and are "cured", it just doesn't work that way.

If all you need is an anti-depressant, then there is no point in doing guided therapy. Guided therapy is generally to address issues which absolutely can not be solved through pharmacology alone and often are difficult to treat with traditional psychotherapy. So if you are targeting a problem like that both the patient and any doctors/therapists involved with said patients treatment need to understand that they may feel better after one session they are not "cured" and need to maintain continuous treatment and stick to a psychotherapy regimen.


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InvisiblebadchadS
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 12,899
Re: LSD "off-switch" developed by psychedelic pharmaceutical company [Re: Holybullshit]
    #26662079 - 05/10/20 12:33 PM (1 month, 26 days ago)

From an approved drug regimen, its highly unlikely psilocybin would ever be approved for use outside of a clinical setting, so more than likely it would be approved within the context of psychotherapy.  You could design those studies with some type of superiority design (e.g., they beat standard of care), or compare to psychotherapy alone.  Past designs have used dummy designs, or been placebo controlled.

Certainly not a "cure," but the literature suggests sustained reductions in depression for roughly 6 months.  A treatment regiment might consist of something like 3-4 sessions over the course of a couple years.  Interesting times for sure.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinemeepins
Stranger

Registered: 09/08/18
Posts: 50
Last seen: 20 days, 18 hours
Re: LSD "off-switch" developed by psychedelic pharmaceutical company [Re: badchad]
    #26706874 - 05/30/20 12:25 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Some good info :thumbup:


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InvisibleMagicman69
All About the Benjamins
Male


Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 6,781
Re: LSD "off-switch" developed by psychedelic pharmaceutical company [Re: meepins]
    #26723388 - 06/06/20 07:19 AM (30 days, 5 hours ago)

Benzos are a pretty good off switch already but the more the merrier... I suppose?


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