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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Not enough FAE in humidity chamber?
    #26721150 - 06/05/20 07:21 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Hey!

I followed Mateah's guide on building a humidity chamber (although I didn't use coir and just put some mineral water in the bottom of the tub and the cakes on an elevated plastic rack).

To provide FAE, I leave the lid slightly elevated so it creates a gap which allows air to enter the plastic tub.

However, all the mushrooms are growing with fuzzy feet. Should I heat up something to poke some holes in the plastic? What would you suggest to dial in the conditions with this set-up?

Thank you :smile:


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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Farnaby1984]
    #26721555 - 06/05/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I just saw there's a name for the fruiting chamber I built. It's actually Mateah's water tub tek, not the humidity chamber tek.


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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Farnaby1984]
    #26721624 - 06/05/20 11:02 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah you can manually fan it or poke holes. The idea is to get.morw air circulating.
Also the water tub will work better with distilled water. Eventually your gonna end up with a breeding pool of bacteria.


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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Sockadin]
    #26721652 - 06/05/20 11:11 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sockadin said:
Yeah you can manually fan it or poke holes. The idea is to get.morw air circulating.
Also the water tub will work better with distilled water. Eventually your gonna end up with a breeding pool of bacteria.




Thanks for your help!

Damn, didn't know it should be distilled water. It's been mineral water for the last two weeks at least and I've changed it once.

Do you think I should empty it and fill with distilled water instead or is it too late now?

The holes should be covered with micropore or polyfill, right?


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Farnaby1984]
    #26721704 - 06/05/20 11:31 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

If you add something to increase evaporation like a sponge sticking halfway out of the water, or enough coir to have it wet but not submerged it’ll help move air around too.

Otherwise it seems like some small holes just above water level would work.


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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26721731 - 06/05/20 11:41 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
If you add something to increase evaporation like a sponge sticking halfway out of the water, or enough coir to have it wet but not submerged it’ll help move air around too.

Otherwise it seems like some small holes just above water level would work.




Thank you, I'll see if I can find something to make the holes or try with a sponge.

Would you also reccomend changing the mineral water and use distilled water instead or is it too late now?

Here are some pictures:




On the second picture you can see the gap I leave for FAE.


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Farnaby1984]
    #26721735 - 06/05/20 11:44 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Changing the water won’t hurt anything.

I don’t use hcs much but I always just put wet paper towels lining the bottom.


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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26721805 - 06/05/20 12:14 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
Changing the water won’t hurt anything.

I don’t use hcs much but I always just put wet paper towels lining the bottom.




I guess in theory those wet paper towels could lead to bacteria as well, so if you didn't have problems with that I hope I'm good. May get some distilled water tomorrow just in case :smile:

Thank you!


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Farnaby1984]
    #26721928 - 06/05/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

It doesn’t actually touch the paper towels cuz the rack but it would get mold eventually.


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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26721948 - 06/05/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
It doesn’t actually touch the paper towels cuz the rack but it would get mold eventually.




Yes, I mean the towels themselves would create some bacteria and through condensation it could end up on the substrate right?

I guess the mushrooms would be safe to consume even if there was some bacteria in the fruiting chamber.


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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Farnaby1984]
    #26722140 - 06/05/20 02:58 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know anything about this water tub method, but I think stagnant water goes nasty faster. An airstone would remedy that


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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Apples in Mono]
    #26722203 - 06/05/20 03:33 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Apples in Mono said:
I don't know anything about this water tub method, but I think stagnant water goes nasty faster. An airstone would remedy that




Yes, you're right it does go nasty faster. The question is whether it would be nasty enough to affect the mushrooms negatively.

This is the water tub tek: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26601054/fpart/1/vc/1


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OfflineInfraredRick
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Farnaby1984]
    #26722414 - 06/05/20 05:44 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Consider dumping hydrogen peroxide into your current water to kill off the established bugs. It quickly degrades to water and oxygen.


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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: InfraredRick]
    #26723304 - 06/06/20 02:59 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

InfraredRick said:
Consider dumping hydrogen peroxide into your current water to kill off the established bugs. It quickly degrades to water and oxygen.




Thanks for the advice! I have a medical thing with 4,9% hydrogen peroxide. How much would I need for 2L of water?

I've researched it a bit and it's usually not reccomended to mix it with misting water but I couldn't find anything about dumping it in standing water.


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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Sockadin]
    #26723342 - 06/06/20 04:18 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sockadin said:
Also the water tub will work better with distilled water. Eventually your gonna end up with a breeding pool of bacteria.





Just to be clear, Mateah doesn't ever specify in this thread on his Tek about using distilled water. Although, intuitively what you're saying makes sense. I have two water tubs going now, and after treading this thread, as well as seeing the water starting to get a little nasty, I am going to take a little time right now and change out the water. But I only used tap water, and no water treatment. I decided to stop asking him questions about his Tek at some point a week or two back. But if I ever grow again, I think I am going to go back to the SGFC. The Water tub is fine, and my cakes are probably getting very close to the end of the end anyway. But the Water Tub did seem to revitalize some very stalled cakes.


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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: LSA Woodrose]
    #26723348 - 06/06/20 04:26 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LSA Woodrose said:
Just to be clear, Mateah doesn't ever specify in this thread on his Tek about using distilled water. Although, intuitively what you're saying makes sense. I have two water tubs going now, and after treading this thread, as well as seeing the water starting to get a little nasty, I am going to take a little time right now and change out the water. But I only used tap water, and no water treatment. I decided to stop asking him questions about his Tek at some point a week or two back. But if I ever grow again, I think I am going to go back to the SGFC. The Water tub is fine, and my cakes are probably getting very close to the end of the end anyway. But the Water Tub did seem to revitalize some very stalled cakes.




Yep, you're right, he doesn't say to use distilled water although now that people mentioned it, it makes sense. I think I'm going to change it today.

Would you mind sharing how your water tub looks like (here or PM).

Thank you!


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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Farnaby1984]
    #26723358 - 06/06/20 04:47 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Farnaby1984 said:
Yep, you're right, he doesn't say to use distilled water although now that people mentioned it, it makes sense. I think I'm going to change it today.

Would you mind sharing how your water tub looks like (here or PM).

Thank you!




It looks a little nasty. I have two of them, actually. I had taken all my stalled cakes out of the two SGFC's on 05/18 and had created a smaller one on I think 05/15. In truth the water in the larger, newer one is slightly yellowing, but I think that has more to do with the fact that the cakes in there actually fruited decently and all the spore dropping and little micro-shrooms dropping. The older and smaller tub actually looks more clear. They look pretty much as you would expect. LMAO I certainly wouldn't be drinking water from there.

As I posted above, I was about to change the water in both, but to be honest, it really isn't even worth it at this point. These cakes, at least the first 24, are getting damned close to the end of their life I think. The 5 new cakes are in between flushes now, and the problem is these tubs are so bulky, even the small 30 quart with a few inches of water, that the idea of changing out that water in my little kitchen sink sounds like a nasty fucking job, and not even worth it. I am just going to leave them in there and I think I am done with this grow like very soon.

Oh and the fuzzy feet thing you mentioned may not have anything to do with the water tub. I have been getting fuzzy feet on the first 24 cakes since I was using the SGFCs for the original cakes. But I think this has more to do with my climate as well as the fact that I had the tubs in a big closet, which is not ideal for FAE. Although in the past month I did open the doors and leave them open 24/7.

Sockadin, as for fanning, no way. Whatever shit is in those tubs I have zero interest in circulating it even more into my breathing air than it already is by being still water. Also, the weather is starting to get warmer now that summer is close. Its already about 80 degrees average in that closet and in my house without the AC, and I am out a lot. So rather than run high AC day and night non stop, I think that whatever the Mycelium gods want to give me in the next week or two is what I will end up with, and that's that. I really don't want to keep this going much longer, as I am not tripping anywhere near as much as I expected, and I am not a shrooms dealer. So I have more than enough for my personal use already. Probably well over a year's worth, maybe two lol unless I decide to start tripping weekly.


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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: LSA Woodrose]
    #26723369 - 06/06/20 05:01 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for sharing. Yeah, I get what you mean. I changed the water once and it was quite the hassle lol. Not to mention the added opportunity for damaging the cakes or getting them contaminated.

It's warm here as well, but I'm hoping to get at least this flush and another one.

Do you leave a gap in the lid or how do you provide these tubs with FAE? It seems no matter how big the gap is, I still get fuzzy feet. My tub should get enough air, because it's standing in a room, not in a closet.

And just one more question: if there was bacteria in the water somehow getting to the cakes, if the mushrooms look healthy they're safe to eat, right?


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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Farnaby1984]
    #26723434 - 06/06/20 06:05 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

First off, Farnaby1984, take everything I say with the proverbial grain-o-salt, as I am a total n00b at this. I first came to this forum in February looking for extraction methods of LSA from HBW and MG seeds, and it never even occurred to me to try and grow shrooms! lol I learned EVERY single little thing I know (and its not much!) about shrooms literally in the past 3 months. I kid you not. Most people in this forum have forgotten more about growing shrooms than I will probably ever know. That said...

Quote:

Farnaby1984 said:
Thanks for sharing. Yeah, I get what you mean. I changed the water once and it was quite the hassle lol. Not to mention the added opportunity for damaging the cakes or getting them contaminated.

It's warm here as well, but I'm hoping to get at least this flush and another one.




I am in NY City, and I honestly don't think that either the year-round humidity nor the summer temperature are conducive to growing mushrooms. But I also think that even a huge closet like mine is going to inhibit FAE. Additionally, for the first 6 weeks, I was keeping the closet doors closed, which I believe was causing fuzzy feet and a loss of FAE. I noticed when I opened the two doors to the closet, and left them wide open, things improved a bit. But I still think that even with open doors, a closet isn't ideal, because you have three sides still enclosed. lol Oh well. I am not a mycologist, and what I grow is only for personal use, so I don't give a shit if my conditions are ideal or not. Well, okay I do give a shit, but not enough to leave an eyesore of tubs all over my small apartment for months at a time. lol

Quote:

Farnaby1984 said:
Do you leave a gap in the lid or how do you provide these tubs with FAE?




The gap is cleverly implemented by doing what Mateah suggested, and putting the top on the tub upside down. That leaves a small gap all around. Whether that gives enough FAE, whether fanning is necessary or not, whether SGFC's are better...none of these things I have a clue about. I do know a few things, though, at least through my own anecdotal observations:

-SGFC's gave me fruits and flushes

-The Water Tubs gave me fruits and flushes

-I stopped fanning the second I put the cakes into the water tub, because doing so really dropped the humidity down a lot, and Mateah is very clear about only misting once a day. I suppose fanning the cakes in a water tub is fine, but I wasn't sure, and I realized that if I were going to fan, then I would have to start misting more, and he was very clear NOT to do either.

-My cakes were in the SGFCs for about 6-8 weeks, and by that time they had been seriously stalling. I did get some revitalizing when I put them into the Water Tubs, so that's something! Additionally, the 5 newer cakes, which I birthed about 3 weeks ago, into the Water Tub, flushed a few times pretty nicely. They may still have more in them. If it weren't so close to a sweltering NYC summer, I would probably just leave them in the tubs for another month just for shits and giggles and to get every last shitty-looking, straggler shrooms out of these aging cakes.

-I also have some legal concerns, growing in my apartment that are making me want to end this grow sooner rather than later. But as long as even some of the cakes seem to be fruiting, I am fine to leave them a little longer.

Quote:

Farnaby1984 said:
It seems no matter how big the gap is, I still get fuzzy feet. My tub should get enough air, because it's standing in a room, not in a closet.




Maybe Mateah is wrong about fanning? I am pretty sure that the other highly knowledgeable people like Sockadin, Logical Chaos, and others are advocates for fanning. But I may be wrong about the latter. Fuzzy feet don't bother me. If I were a mycologist, or if I were interested in cultivating for some financial gain, I would spend a few hundred or even a few thousand and create a setup with artificial humidifying, constant AC (in summer) and would buy or devise some system of air circulation. Additionally, I would create a grow area that was more optimal than my big closet. Which apparently isn't your problem.

All that said, I see nothing wrong with experimenting. Might I suggest that you consider fanning for 90 seconds every day, at which point I am 99% sure you will also have to mist more frequently than the once a day Mateah recommends.

One more thing, and I will probably take some heat for this here, get a couple of cheap hygrometers, or one if you only have one water tub. Nothing elaborate, just one for each water tub or other fruiting chamber. Just by a cheap one off Amazon or at Home Depot. No more than $5.00. As many will point out here, they are NOT entirely reliable, and even worse, the humidity in the "air" of the chamber is not the same as surface humidity of the cakes. But you know what? I say, fuck it! It gives me at last a smidge more information than I would have without it, and having a hygrometer in both chambers did at least tell me when the humidity overall started to drop. In defense of the Water Tubs, I will say that even my somewhat inaccurate hygrometers are staying north of 90% at all times, where it was a real struggle for me keeping them even around 80% in the SGFCs, again more because of my environment I think than anything else.

Quote:

Farnaby1984 said:
And just one more question: if there was bacteria in the water somehow getting to the cakes, if the mushrooms look healthy they're safe to eat, right?




Not sure, but you know what? Not to be too much of a know it all (since I am more of a know-very-little lol) I don't give a shit. I take the ones with fuzzy feet, and I toss them in little bowls covered in Saran Wrap, label them with dates, strain, and weight, and stick them in the fridge. After about a week, or when I accumulate enough to make breaking out the dehydrator worth it, whichever comes first, I toss everything from the fridge into my food dehydrator and dry for 24 hours.

The reason I am so cavalier about bacteria and other contaminants is because 24 hours on top of the fan and the 173 degrees of heat of the dehydrator will kill the bacteria and other crap in there. Not to mention that whether we realize or not, we all probably eat our share of bacteria anyway, just not enough to get us sick. Wanna know something else? I am an avid cyclist, and during Spring, Summer, and Fall months while riding, bugs fly into my mouth. I can't even count how many times I unintentionally ate little bugs that had the misfortune of flying into my mouth with enough force to end up in my stomach.

Not to sound too indifferent, you think I give a shit about some fuzz on shrooms that I put into a dehydrator? I will say that I probably won't eat any fresh shrooms with fuzzy feet. So that's something, I guess. Others will surely chime in about this, and they know a lot more than I do.


Edited by LSA Woodrose (06/06/20 06:11 AM)


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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: LSA Woodrose]
    #26723540 - 06/06/20 07:55 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you! I really appreciate your detailed answer. It's currently pretty warm here too, even hot some days. I think mushrooms are quite resistant.

Like you, I'm not overly concerned about the fuzzy feet themselves, but more about the nasties that could thrive in conditions that also lead to fuzzy feet.

Unfortunately, I chose a tub that's not deep enough so I can't flip the lid upside down without damaging the taller mushrooms. What I just did instead is "dub tubbing" the whole thing and there's a thin gap all over the edges.

This is how it's looking:




And yes, you're completely right about us eating lots of bacteria without even noticing lol it's just that I'm a bit paranoid about dangerous bacteria since I'm very new to this and it's not like I'm in an industrial environment where they control stuff so we get to eat food that doesn't poison us lol.

I will consider getting the hygrometer.

Thanks again!


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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: LSA Woodrose]
    #26723619 - 06/06/20 08:49 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

You're welcome! Most will tell you the hygrometer is not important at all, and they have good reasons for this. However, as someone very new to this, I want my system to give me as much information as possible, particularly about things like humidity. It may be only a tiny, little part of the information, but its more information, and was a cheap item.


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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: LSA Woodrose]
    #26723913 - 06/06/20 11:30 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Wow. Take a couple of days to work on the house and Bam!. Lots to cover.

Yeah LSA knows his shit. I would listen to anything he said. He is a mycologist in my opinion and has graduated from noob status.

What the hell was the question again,?

Oh yeah flip the lid. Hygrometers are fine, just unreliable in general.

The reason alot of people hate on them is that they don't provide a good measurement of surface moisture. So you look and it says 85% so you skip a misting or two and boom your cakes dry out. The concept is that they can become a crutch for new growers and learning to read your cakes or surface moisture in a mono is more important than looking at a gauge.

Honestly the same thing is true for a PC. Most gauges are not reliable either and when you hear a rocking from your weight. Your up to temperature even if you gauge shows 14 PSI.

I'm really curious LSA about the swealtering heat of NYC, cause I'm probably moving to up state NY this fall. Tired of the fucking heat in Texas.


This will be an interesting experience for me moving from a high humidity climate where cubes grow naturally to a colder temperature where other actives grow.

I wonder if Psilocybe cyaneses will grow in up state New York?

Oh and fan all you want op. I still don't like the water tub or HC.


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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Sockadin]
    #26723934 - 06/06/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sockadin said:
Wow. Take a couple of days to work on the house and Bam!. Lots to cover.

Yeah LSA knows his shit. I would listen to anything he said. He is a mycologist in my opinion and has graduated from noob status.

What the hell was the question again,?

Oh yeah flip the lid. Hygrometers are fine, just unreliable in general.

The reason alot of people hate on them is that they don't provide a good measurement of surface moisture. So you look and it says 85% so you skip a misting or two and boom your cakes dry out. The concept is that they can become a crutch for new growers and learning to read your cakes or surface moisture in a mono is more important than looking at a gauge.

Honestly the same thing is true for a PC. Most gauges are not reliable either and when you hear a rocking from your weight. Your up to temperature even if you gauge shows 14 PSI.

I'm really curious LSA about the swealtering heat of NYC, cause I'm probably moving to up state NY this fall. Tired of the fucking heat in Texas.


This will be an interesting experience for me moving from a high humidity climate where cubes grow naturally to a colder temperature where other actives grow.

I wonder if Psilocybe cyaneses will grow in up state New York?

Oh and fan all you want op. I still don't like the water tub or HC.




I thought Texas is actually a dry climate. You learn something new every day lol.

I decided not to fan because from my understanding, constant FAE is way more important.

Is it possible to have mushrooms that are growing fuzzy feet and at the same time the surface needs misting?

I ask this because as far as I know fuzzy feet = lack of FAE/too high humidity. But, I see fuzzy feet even when I go days without misting and there are no droplets on the cakes so I'm wondering if I should completely stop misting when I see fuzzy feet or still try to keep those tiny droplets on the surface.

Thanks again!


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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Farnaby1984]
    #26723968 - 06/06/20 11:52 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah fuzzy feet can also be genetic. So I wouldn't use that as a reason to reduce misting or fanning.

A properly built SGFC should provide you with the right amount of FAE. not enough testing has been done on the HC creation of Meteah to really be sure.

You can have to much misting and still dry out your substrate. One isn't a replacement for the other. Mists are water droplets but that doesn't replace humidity. It just enhances it.

Most of your humidity will come from the cake it self and a good amount of FAE so the misting is only to replace surface moisture in the substrate. Which with proper FAE creates more humidity through evaporation which is the major pining trigger.

So if your fruits look healthy leave them be with the lid flipped and allow minimal FAE.


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Re: Not enough FAE in humidity chamber? [Re: Sockadin]
    #26724293 - 06/06/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sockadin said:
Yeah fuzzy feet can also be genetic. So I wouldn't use that as a reason to reduce misting or fanning.

A properly built SGFC should provide you with the right amount of FAE. not enough testing has been done on the HC creation of Meteah to really be sure.

You can have to much misting and still dry out your substrate. One isn't a replacement for the other. Mists are water droplets but that doesn't replace humidity. It just enhances it.

Most of your humidity will come from the cake it self and a good amount of FAE so the misting is only to replace surface moisture in the substrate. Which with proper FAE creates more humidity through evaporation which is the major pining trigger.

So if your fruits look healthy leave them be with the lid flipped and allow minimal FAE.




Thank you for clearing that up! So, the idea is to always have very small droplets on the surface, as well as high humidity in the FC, right?

I think besides the fuzzy feet they look healthy and plenty hydrated (the stipes are brownish which I think is a sign of sufficient water).


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