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Green_Hands
The Great Devourer



Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 625
Loc: Old World
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non fruiting ganoderma
#26718935 - 06/04/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ok, so I have very specific need and have access to pro equipment, scope and micromanipulators, clean bench (whatever needed).
I need to create non fruiting ganoderma culture. My idea is to use micromanipulators and germinate single spores.
So - monokaryon culture.
I know it will grow vegetatively but my question is very specific. Is it gonna make derma?
I call derma the outer snow white protective layer that forms before fruits when everything thicken to point of looking like plush skin.
My line of thinking is - from "derma" layer pins appear and old derma layer in cross section have all characteristics of fruit body...
On the other hand derma is formed before fruits and mainly is there to protect organism from environment. So, in all honesty, Im not sure.
Going trough this motion will require some resources which I would like not to waste if possible.
Or maybe there is much simpler way to get non fruiter?
Opinions?
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Looping our reflections, our obsessions draw us in Fix and fixation, no sentience beyond
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Strainsfordaze


Registered: 05/10/18
Posts: 669
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Re: non fruiting ganoderma [Re: Green_Hands] 2
#26718951 - 06/04/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Since it is a basidiomycetes I don’t believe it will make it that far without fusing with another monokaryon.
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Green_Hands
The Great Devourer



Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 625
Loc: Old World
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How far would ganoderma monokaryon go in your opinion?
I get conflicting opinions from people who kinda know what they are talking about. One even stated that monokaryon of some species can in theory get almost all the way, even fruits but no basidia...
Other stated that secondary mycelium wont form if not dikaryon...
Fuck.
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Looping our reflections, our obsessions draw us in Fix and fixation, no sentience beyond
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Strainsfordaze


Registered: 05/10/18
Posts: 669
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The latter. You need 2 fused monokaryons to form the mycelium.
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Green_Hands
The Great Devourer



Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 625
Loc: Old World
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Sounds about right since ganoderma is heterothallic.
Soooooo... selection from MS and search for shittiest fruiter.
It will take ages.
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Looping our reflections, our obsessions draw us in Fix and fixation, no sentience beyond
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Strainsfordaze


Registered: 05/10/18
Posts: 669
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Why are you wanting it to never fruit btw?
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Green_Hands
The Great Devourer



Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 625
Loc: Old World
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Making materials from it.

Stuff like this. But commercial and on much, much bigger scale.
Edited by Green_Hands (06/06/20 05:18 PM)
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Strainsfordaze


Registered: 05/10/18
Posts: 669
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Green_Hands
The Great Devourer



Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 625
Loc: Old World
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yea, one of them. kinda should stop sharing shit on shroomery.. but fuck it.
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Looping our reflections, our obsessions draw us in Fix and fixation, no sentience beyond
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vinnie boombotz
Reggaejunkiejew


Registered: 04/29/19
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Just keep it in the dark maybe ? I don't know if red light will make it fruit, if not keep it in a dark Room Like photography type
Or just a deer hunting headlamp with the red light
Edited by vinnie boombotz (06/10/20 01:21 AM)
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Green_Hands
The Great Devourer



Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 625
Loc: Old World
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Last step of process, before drying, is to have them in tent for a few days, so they grow thick and plushy.
Culture that we work with is very eager to fruit, it fruits in complete dark. Pins are pins, pins from dark are white and dont change color util light hit them, but still some lumps and bumps are not desired.
I inoculated recently bag with our wild resinaceum culture and it behaves a bit differently. It makes very thick derma and it fruits but not even close to our commercial culture. For now Im going to make full batch of our product with it but also i did plate of spores so kinda hoping to restart and find something even more finicky in fruiting department.
I have that too optimistic kinda of outlook when mushrooms are concerned and had burning desire to work with micromanipulators... So decided to fuck it, gonna go with it and get monokaryon culture and see how far its gonna go. Also going trough process and establishing cooperation with that facility is kinda of investment.
Good thing to be able to rationalize everything.
But I never thought about red light... So tnx for food for thoughts, gonna try with different lights. In our experience ganoderma is extremely light sensitive. We also have strong uv-c installed in clean bench, I dont use it at all but to have material burned for few minutes... who knows.
Actually, shroomery collective never let me down so far.
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Looping our reflections, our obsessions draw us in Fix and fixation, no sentience beyond
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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I wonder if you could suppress fruiting with a temperature. Either too high or low for fruiting but ok for colonization. Also would be strain dependent so something that could be influenced by selection potentially
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Green_Hands
The Great Devourer



Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 625
Loc: Old World
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Re: non fruiting ganoderma [Re: bodhisatta]
#26734146 - 06/10/20 11:36 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, yes you can to a certain degree. But than I had them pin at 10 C. Takes them long ass time to do it but they do it.
Too high temps I honestly doubt would suppress pins.
Its beast of a mushroom.
Problem with temp control is - it slows things down and again, we talk about industrial scale here. We managed to do it with scaling up reishi production and we now grow one ton dried annually with calculated price per kilo thats just a bit below 10 euro. Thats how much it cost us with all equipment, bags, rent, work hours, electricity & other bills and also amortization of said equipment.
Cooling big spaces would involve increased power consumption, price of cooling units, installation and servicing etc etc while increasing time of our process because things get a bit slower with lower temps.
Thats direct impact on our product price and we would like very much to avoid it if we can.
We need to make this shit as cheap as possible to have any chance to even hope to really replace at least some plastics. Anything else is overpriced mycelium for show and no real use beside hypothetical.
We actually, really do want to make positive impact by making this process fully industrial and as cheap as possible. Also to be easy to replicate anywhere in the world by using local agro waste. : )
So, selecting proper culture that fits our needs is something we cant avoid in any case, i just want to try some more things beside selection...
So tnx very much for responses guys, all of you made really good points.
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Looping our reflections, our obsessions draw us in Fix and fixation, no sentience beyond
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Mrcloudy
Stranger than you.


Registered: 10/01/13
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Re: non fruiting ganoderma [Re: Green_Hands] 1
#26753314 - 06/18/20 03:32 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Experiment with different species.... Each species fruits differently under different conditions. There are some circumstances where a skin analagous to the skin of the pileus will form when a grow bag pulls away just a little bit from the rest of the substrate. Find a species or strain that does that a lot. Try to recreate those conditions en masse on the outside of the fungus. Try physical scraping to see if you can get it to trigger skin formation as a protective measure. I don't think that non fruiting strains will produce the skin, that being said if you really want to play with sometime that doesn't like to fruit, go with something like G.tsugae which is quite fickle, difficult to even clone but will run just fine once you get a successful culture.
One possible way that might be utilized to speed up the selection process would be to look for species that darken on agar, I know tsugae does, Ganoderma martinicense as well. I have done microscopy on these cultures in the past and noted that in at least some cases the darkening is from production of skin cells on the surface. I do not know if under the right conditions these cells will eventually work together to form a cohesive skin. This is one aspect of Ganoderma that I am very interested in, the exact processes that go into the skin production. The anatomy of Ganoderma skin blows me away in its complexity.
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10 different Ganoderma species from across the USA AMU MrCloudys guide to North American GanodermaUpdated A rough guide to North American Ganoderma species, with an emphasis on the laccate species.
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Green_Hands
The Great Devourer



Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 625
Loc: Old World
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Re: non fruiting ganoderma [Re: Mrcloudy]
#26756233 - 06/19/20 02:58 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes! I'm getting few more ganoderma species to play with. Resinaceum is interesting one for sure, looks promising. Crazy thick.

edit
This is test run and I prepped bag as i do when we grow them. At this point of time old culture would have bunch of antlers, like in my sig.
This just made derma and crawled up the bag. Than got thick and Im quite sure that whole big mess of tissue is actually fruit bodie/s as of today. Its wild clone.
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Looping our reflections, our obsessions draw us in Fix and fixation, no sentience beyond
Edited by Green_Hands (06/19/20 02:28 PM)
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Green_Hands
The Great Devourer



Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 625
Loc: Old World
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Re: non fruiting ganoderma [Re: Mrcloudy]
#26759553 - 06/20/20 10:20 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ok, today I had some spare time and since I opened topic I should at least illustrate it better than with just words.
Picture time.
I cant really show out product but can share some test blocks to illustrate plushy, hydrophobic surface. All blocks are fully dried and dead.

wood shavings, sawdust and hay
Same thing but different properties, depending on substrate.
Its amazing organism.
And this is old derma, fresh from old fruiting bag.
Cross section

thin small piece of that fresh derma on slide 4x non squashed

same piece bit scraped and bit squashed 40x i think...

Derma/skin is extremly good at keeping organism alive and well even in quite shitty conditions. Cross section of old block that fruited. Notice darker pigmentation near the edges.
That block is still alive.

Back to resinaceum. Looks interesting. Mycelium is very similar and behaves similarly so far but there are subtle differences. Also totally different morphology as side by side picture shows.

And some randomness
Both dry, both same culture but different environment.

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Looping our reflections, our obsessions draw us in Fix and fixation, no sentience beyond
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