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InvisibleRevok
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At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"?
    #26712206 - 06/01/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

... and do you think it is ever justified? Under what circumstances and in what form might it be an acceptable response?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: Revok]
    #26712224 - 06/01/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I'm going to edit and expand my post. There are probably two forms of civil disobedience: legal and illegal, per statute.

Now, the sit-ins of the fifties and sixties in the American South were technically illegal, and therefore technically criminal. They violated state laws. Young black protesters were making a point of sitting at the counters of white-only restaurants and drugstores, and so forth. Of course, most of us believe that the "separate but equal" clause of the Supreme Court was essentially racist, and wrong. So most of us probably feel that these sit-ins, a form of civil disobedience, were justified and righteous.

But then you get into very dangerous territory when you start subjectively and arbitrarily deciding which laws are just and which aren't. The whole legal principle and deterrent can only have meaning if laws are challenged legally. Protests are fine for this, but violence and subterfuge are not.

So I guess it depends on what you mean by civil disobedience, and what laws you feel are unjust. A sit-in is a pretty nonviolent way to go about things. There are a lot of people in the U.S. who would like to disobey violently, as we have seen recently. That is criminal and wrong, I think we can all agree.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Edited by DividedQuantum (06/01/20 08:27 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26712972 - 06/02/20 03:47 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

putting on the brakes in a car is a contravention of the drive train's purpose, but not a contravention of the operation of the car.

similarly the civil disobedience puts on the brakes of society when continuing in the current way is gallingly bad for people.

the harm to operations is less than the resulting good to the totality.

society needs both steering and brakes.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26713654 - 06/02/20 10:22 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Two general cases I can think of is when an institutional power of some kind is producing mass suffering on a fundamental level or an institution is violating people’s freedoms.  Some times they overlap or there is one without the other.

As far as the criminality element I think morality trumps legality if the current legality is overriding liberties or the legal mass exploitation in some economic sense is overriding human need.  Something like that.


Edited by Yellow Pants (06/02/20 10:30 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26713731 - 06/02/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

agreed,
but at the same time when we need civil disobedience, then we also need reform
so that the system puts on it's own brakes while steering around difficult issues.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26713801 - 06/02/20 11:20 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

For sure.  Proportion is probably a good word  as far as disobedience and criminality.  Idk how to make some generalization with it tho.  Although by that logic racist blacks should kill whites without that extreme justification.  Maybe utility, whatever gets the reform done.  Mass protesting in the right places might be less criminal than looting etc. I really don’t know in this case but generally speaking yeah I agree.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: Revok]
    #26714863 - 06/02/20 06:51 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Revok said:
... and do you think it is ever justified? Under what circumstances and in what form might it be an acceptable response?




Not sure why you feel you need rules.
As a prisoner of war, the situation is different, from a union going on a strike.
In this country (the USA), in the past, peaceful strikers were shot.

There are always many different angles.
There is no substitute for paying attention.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26715137 - 06/02/20 08:55 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
putting on the brakes in a car is a contravention of the drive train's purpose, but not a contravention of the operation of the car.

similarly the civil disobedience puts on the brakes of society when continuing in the current way is gallingly bad for people.

the harm to operations is less than the resulting good to the totality.

society needs both steering and brakes.




Huh... wow... I guess that makes perfect sense.



--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26716142 - 06/03/20 08:42 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

as if all rebellions (or protests) have always succeeded....


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26716447 - 06/03/20 10:52 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

All braking does not result in stopping... but the collective mean never resembles the outliers


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26716664 - 06/03/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I used braking and steering in my analogy, because we all understand that travelling in a car involves responding to conditions.
Social conventions, and laws normally are conditional but have a fixed articulation.
One option that is made for us is the right to dissent, and demonstrate.
This enables braking (civil disobedience) from outside of the drivetrain (legal framework) which handles the ordinary responsiveness to expected conditions.

it is not a panacea, I am not sure why you typed that all braking does not cause stopping. It is not about stopping, it is about going forward with sanity.

i.e. the protest does not change the law, lawmakers may change the law by coming to understand the emergency braking events that are happening around the country.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26717178 - 06/03/20 04:10 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
as if all rebellions (or protests) have always succeeded....




Was saying that rebellions and protests do not always result in success, because some may not have enough critical mass to do so. This doesn't negate the braking analogy. For example, if a "legalize psilocybin" protest amounted to nothing, it also could be because the society in general is not excited enough to take any action in support. So in this case, the protest was an outlier... but civil disobedience is still, nonetheless, a contravention of the purpose of the government without being a contravention of the government's functionality. So society benefits from both governmental structure and stability, and the accountability provided by civil disobedience. This does not imply that every civil disobedience would be successful (although hopefully some day soon we will see a more scientific and neutral approach to the laws regarding psilocybin!).


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: Revok] * 1
    #26717901 - 06/03/20 10:09 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

It becomes criminal the moment it violates a criminal statute. There are any number of possible circumstances under which I'd consider that to be not only morally justified, but even a moral obligation. Heck, I'd rob a man, if necessary, to save another's life- at least I hope I would. You better believe I'd be willing to annoy the shit out of a man by sitting at his doorstep past my welcome, if the cause was right


Edited by Apples in Mono (06/03/20 10:18 PM)


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: Revok] * 1
    #26718308 - 06/04/20 03:44 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Civil disobedience is supposed to involve breaking the law, that's the whole idea, that's what makes it civil disobedience. If you're not breaking some law, then it's not civil disobedience. The goal is to break an unjust law, in order to highlight the fact that the law is unjust.

If you use violence, then it stops being civil disobedience, that's the main dividing line. Also if the law you're breaking is just then what you're doing is wrong. Alternatively if your methods or goals are unjust, that's also wrong. So you have to use good methods to achieve good goals, that's the general idea.

Also you have to accept the consequences and punishment for your actions openly and willingly, even lovingly. That means submitting to arrest rather than trying to avoid it, pleading guilty to the charge rather than innocent, preferring to spend time in jail rather than get released. All of that is to call attention to the injustice of the law.


Edited by nooneman (06/04/20 03:47 AM)


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OfflineFreeCanadianHugs
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: nooneman]
    #26719288 - 06/04/20 01:55 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I have an opinion that is not going to be popular with some I feel. With the civil unrest in USA right now over the death of George Floyd and the rightful anger at the police you might be surprised that I also hold those recording George Floyd's death responsible. Some will like think that of course these witnessed should not have gotten involved as it could have risked their lives too, but when you ask when is civil disobedience justified that would have been a very good time for it. If you see someone in real danger and you do nothing but raise your voice and record it then when are you going to do civil disobedience? When it doesn't risk or effect you? Anyone of those witnesses could have pushed that officer off George Floyd's neck and saved his life. It may have caused the witness to be arrested, beaten or even possibly killed but George would be alive and USA would not have the riots and the deaths that came after.

I don't want a military rule but if you see someone doing something wrong and you don't stop them the military holds you responsible. When you refuse to stand up for what you know is right, or to stop what you know is wrong you are condoning injustice. Somethings are worth risking your life for and these witnesses failed to protect a man that desperately needed it when those charged with protecting society abused their power and took his life because others let them.

The strangest thing about the riots in USA is that I find myself cheering for a scumbag MMA fighter named Jon Jones. Jones once after a UFC match drove himself home and got high while driving. Jones got into a car crash and hit a pregnant woman, and then fled from the scene of the crime for fear of how it could effect him instead of checking on the woman he collided his car with. I believe in the moments of crisis we show who we really are and I will forever think he was a scumbag at that moment. But during this crisis I've seen Jon Jones take spray cans from rioters in his city without assaulting them. Jones could go through the average citizens like most of us versus toddlers but he didn't. He told them to give him the spray cans, took them, and then told the young men to go home. The next day he gathered volunteers to clean up the damage done by rioters to local business. The next night he gathered up volunteers to protect the community through strength of numbers to not destroy their neighborhoods. This scumbag has shown more leadership than most during these riots.


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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: nooneman]
    #26719416 - 06/04/20 03:13 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Civil disobedience is supposed to involve breaking the law, that's the whole idea, that's what makes it civil disobedience. If you're not breaking some law, then it's not civil disobedience. The goal is to break an unjust law, in order to highlight the fact that the law is unjust.

If you use violence, then it stops being civil disobedience, that's the main dividing line. Also if the law you're breaking is just then what you're doing is wrong. Alternatively if your methods or goals are unjust, that's also wrong. So you have to use good methods to achieve good goals, that's the general idea.

Also you have to accept the consequences and punishment for your actions openly and willingly, even lovingly. That means submitting to arrest rather than trying to avoid it, pleading guilty to the charge rather than innocent, preferring to spend time in jail rather than get released. All of that is to call attention to the injustice of the law.




I think there are some circumstances that I'd call "civil disobedience", yet not "criminal." If, say, a group of tenants organizes a rent strike. Depending on their reasons for refusing payment, their actions might be unlawful, but won't actually become criminal until the landlord files a claim and the tenants either skip court or fail to fulfill a court order to make payment


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: Revok]
    #26726138 - 06/07/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Everything is game...but don't steal from your neighbors or burn their house down...or kill them for a political point...


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #26726246 - 06/07/20 10:52 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I highly disagree with thinking everything is a game,
however
when you do something well there is a playful aspect to the whole thing.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26726556 - 06/07/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I highly disagree with thinking everything is a game




Interesting... Why?


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: At what point do you define "civil disobedience" "criminal"? [Re: Forrester]
    #26726743 - 06/07/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

On the one hand you have everything, and on the other hand you have games.
someplace in the middle are people who make up games and make things into games usually to establish a fun activity, or a diversionary entertainment, and that can range from playful to sadistic.

Then you also have people who play the games for fun or become trapped into playing games for others' entertainment.

Games usually involve a board or limiting field of play, several rules, and some random challenge. Often teams and costumes are employed to spread the excitement more widely into the culture - to make it global or Olympic. we have recently added international competition to the field of BMX biking. Anything can be made into a game.

When we say everything is a game, it is to channel thinking towards how some activities with rules we dislike seem to serve as entertainments for somebody else while we just follow those rules, and have no fun at all or get boos from the crowd as we lose our dignity. Also we see that some have gambled (as in played the stock market or other game) and won big money, as if money were the whole issue in life. This is essentially a cynical approach and a hard one to argue with.

Then we can say everything is a game to make all those without money feel like losers. Some people actually want to make others feel like losers so they can momentarily feel like a winner. it's sick. Some people who seem to have a lot of fun, really are playful, but they are not playing games, they are playing with their own living energy or life force. It is more real than any game, but to do it one must take things less seriously than a contestant would take themselves in a competitive situation.

Anyway I don't agree, even though on some salvia trips I have been transported to some cosmic tv game show which is the epitome of emotions, manipulation, and embarrassment. Just tricking myself again...


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