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Offlinekoods
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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: The Blind Ass] * 3
    #26705843 - 05/29/20 09:36 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)



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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26705850 - 05/29/20 09:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Of course,

but when people who are outspoken about something (like everyone deciding to express a negative opinion towards the rioters in this thread) are either unable or unwilling to provide even a basic argument in support of their opinion, it definitely weakens the strength of that view.

You don't have to write an essay to support your opinions - I'm just unnecessarily verbose.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26705853 - 05/29/20 09:41 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I see some merit in both sides.


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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26705860 - 05/29/20 09:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)



multi city protest

not live, it was a while ago


got a friend at the houston protest currently

sigh


so many words, yet so few. so many mixed feelings i cannot express


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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26705876 - 05/29/20 09:56 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Sorry for the essay but there is no adequate tl;dr

The idea of black people looting a store is one of the more racially charged images in the white imaginary. You (and many others) may uncritically believe this stereotype, but even the gut reaction to correct the assertion that protesters were all looters helps perpetuate it. When people proclaim that “not everyone was looting, in fact most of the looters weren’t even part of the protest!” or words to that effect, they are trying to fight a horrifically racist history of black people depicted in American culture as robbers and thieves - precisely the image that the police and media commonly evoke to assassinate the character and justify the killing of black victims post fact.

It is a completely righteous and understandable position, however, in trying to correct this media image - in making a strong division between Good Protesters and Bad Rioters or between ethical non-violence practitioners and supposedly violent looters - the narrative of the criminalization of black youth is reproduced. This time it delineates certain kinds of black youth - those who loot versus those who protest. It reproduces racist and white supremacist ideologies (including the tactic of divide-and-conquer), deeming Bad Rioters unworthy of our solidarity and protection - and marking them, subtly, as legitimate targets of police violence.

Similarly, the police argue that outside agitators engage in rioting and looting. Meanwhile, police will consistently praise non-violent protesters and claim that they want to keep those protesters safe. In working to correct the white supremacist media narrative we can end up reproducing police tactics of isolating the individuals who attack property at protests - despite the fact that if it were not for those individuals the media might pay no attention at all.

If protesters hadn’t looted and burnt down buildings, would the protest still be a point of worldwide attention? It’s impossible to know, but all the non-violent protests against police killings across the country that go unreported seem to indicate the answer is no. It was the looting of a Duane Reade after a vigil that brought widespread attention to the murder of Kimani Gray in New York City. If protesters hadn’t looted and burnt down that QuikTrip on the second day of protests, would Ferguson have become a point of worldwide attention? The media’s own warped procedure instructs that riots and looting are more effective at attracting attention to a cause.

But the goal is not merely the attention of corporate media, nor is the goal a certain kind of media attention - no matter how peaceful and well-behaved a protest is, the corporate media will always push the police talking points and the white-supremacist agenda. The goal is justice - so how exactly does rioting and looting help us achieve justice? Here, we have to briefly grapple with the legacy of social justice being won in the USA: namely that of non-violence and the civil rights movement. And that means correcting a pervasive and totalizing narrative about the civil rights movement: that it was non-violent, that it claimed significant wins because it was non-violent, and that it overcame racial injustice altogether.

The civil rights movement was not purely non-violent. Some of its bravest, most inspiring activists worked within the framework of disciplined non-violence. Many of its bravest, most inspiring activists did not. It took months of largely non-violent campaigning in Birmingham, Alabama to force JFK to give his speech calling for a civil rights act. But in the month before he did so, the campaign in Birmingham had become decidedly not-non-violent. The Birmingham riot of 1963 was a pivotal event that contributed to JFK's decision to propose a major civil rights bill. I think Malcolm X provides an excellent evaluation:

Quote:

President Kennedy did not send troops to Alabama when dogs were biting black babies. He waited three weeks until the situation exploded. He then sent troops after the Negroes had demonstrated their ability to defend themselves. In his talk with Alabama editors Kennedy did not urge that Negroes be treated right because it is the right thing to do. Instead, he said that if the Negroes aren't well treated the Muslims would become a threat. He urged a change not because it is right but because the world is watching this country. Kennedy is wrong because his motivation is wrong.




Throughout the civil rights era, massive non-violent civil disobedience campaigns were matched with massive riots. The most famous of these was the Watts rebellion of 1965 but they occurred in dozens of cities across the country. To argue that the movement achieved what it did in spite of rather than as a result of the mixture of not-non-violent and non-violent action is spurious at best. And, lest we forget, Martin Luther King Jr., the man who embodied the respectable non-violent voice that the white power structure claims they would listen to today, was murdered by that same white power structure anyway.

But what does vandalizing businesses have to do with protesting police brutality? Why break windows?

The mystifying ideological claim that looting is violent and non-political is one that has been carefully produced by the ruling class because it is precisely the violent maintenance of property which is both the basis and end of their power. Looting is extremely dangerous to the rich (and most white people) because it reveals, with an immediacy that has to be moralized away, that the idea of private property is just that: an idea, a tenuous and contingent structure of consent backed up by the lethal force of the State. When rioters take territory and loot, they are revealing precisely how, in a space without cops, property relations can be destroyed and things can be had for free.

On a less abstract level there is a practical and tactical benefit to looting. Whenever people worry about looting, there is an implicit sense that the looter must necessarily be acting selfishly, opportunistically, and in excess. But why is it bad to grab an opportunity to improve well-being, to make life better, easier, or more comfortable? Only if you believe that the current (white-supremacist, settler-colonialist) regime of property is just, can you believe that looting is amoral in itself.

White people deploy the idea of looting in a way that implies people of colour are greedy and lazy, but it is just the opposite: looting is a hard-won and dangerous act with potentially terrible consequences, and looters are only stealing from the rich owners’ profit margins. Property destruction and theft charges don’t look good on a résumé or in a campaign for city council, but perhaps this is a good thing. It means that political vandalism is usually a selfless act - and even when it isn’t, it has to be its own reward. There is more reason to suspect paid nonprofit activists and aspiring politicians of ulterior motives than to question the motivations of looters. This may explain why activists and politicians cast such aspersions on them.

And the further assumption that the looter isn’t sharing their loot is just as racist and ideological. We know that poor communities and communities of colour practice more mutual aid and support than do wealthy white communities - partially because they have to. The person looting might be someone who has to hustle everyday to get by - someone who, by grabbing something of value, can afford to spend the rest of the week “non-violently” protesting. They might be feeding their family, or older people in their community who barely survive on Social Security and can’t work (or loot) themselves. They might just be expropriating what they would otherwise buy - liquor, for example - but it still represents a material way that riots help the community: by providing a way for people to solve some of the immediate problems of poverty and by creating a space for people to freely reproduce their lives rather than doing so through wage labor.

Shop windows represent segregation. They are invisible barriers. Like so much in this society, they simultaneously offer a view of “the good life” and block access to it. In a polarizing economy, shop windows taunt the poor with commodities they cannot afford, status and security they will never attain. For millions upon millions, the healthy food, medicines, and other goods they need are the breadth of an entire social class away from them, a gulf they will not cross in a lifetime of hard work - a gulf represented by half an inch of plate glass.

To smash a shop window is to contest all the boundaries that cut through this society: black and white, rich and poor, included and excluded. Most of us have become inured to all this segregation, taking such inequalities for granted as a fact of life. Breaking windows is a way to break this silence, to challenge the absurd notion that the social construct of property rights is more important than the needs of the people around us.

One reactionary argument goes that vandals are wrecking “their own neighborhoods,” but this is a disingenuous way to speak about those whose names do not appear on any deeds. Indeed, although you might hang out in it, how can a chain convenience store or corporate restaurant earnestly be part of anyone’s neighborhood? The same white liberals who inveigh against corporations for destroying local communities are aghast when rioters take their critique to its actual material conclusion. When developers speak of “improving” these neighborhoods, they mean the de facto expulsion of the current population. It is dishonest to blame the victim here, as if more submissiveness could produce a different result.

"But small business owners didn't do anything to deserve this!" Businesses, be they multinational or local, are the tax base that pays for police and without police they would not be able to accumulate so much wealth at everyone else’s expense. In this situation, addressing protests directly to the police is oblique, for the police answer to business owners and politicians, not to public opinion. It is much more direct to target their bosses, the capitalists themselves. Cost them enough money in smashed windows, and maybe they’ll think twice about what kind of policing they call for. Remember that George Floyd's murder was set in motion when a clerk working at a local business called the police over 20$.

"But some poor worker is going to have to clean that up,” sanctimonious liberals charge whenever they see a protester making free with the avenues of the wealthy. Anyone who has worked a blue-collar job knows that this is pure bunk. Replacing windows or scrubbing graffiti off a façade is no worse than any other kind of work one can get in that pay bracket - it's not as though the workers in question would be doing something pleasant and fulfilling otherwise. If anything, vandalism creates jobs, offering additional work opportunities to service industry employees and construction workers whose labor would not otherwise be required. This means you can’t smash capitalism one storefront at a time - but trying to might at least redistribute a little wealth downward. It is typically liberal for critics to present the poor as the victims of confrontational tactics, when in fact it is their own status and comfort they fear for.

"The rioters are actually agent provocateurs!" People who assume that everyone else must be as satisfied with the prevailing order as they are willl often declare that only the police themselves, in disguise of course, would have smashed the windows they are tasked with protecting. Like other conspiracy theories, this attributes all agency to a single nefarious power, denying the existence and strategic sense of those who take action against it.

Agent provocateurs are a real thing but they only pose a significant threat if we buy into the aforementioned Good Protesters vs Bad Rioters dichotomy. The logic goes along these lines: police will/can only be brutal with Bad Rioters, so if we make sure everyone is a Good Protester then our protest movement will remain inviolable. Ignoring the impossible standard this sets up - where even a single act of property destruction strips a protest of all legitimacy - this line of thinking assists the corporate media and police in creating an environment where all it takes is one cop in a costume to legitimize a violent police crackdown on protest.

In this type of environment, the only defence is self policing against every possible agent provocateur - which inevitably leads to dividing what should be a united front as even such innocuous acts as setting up street barricades and shouting "fuck the police" have been claimed as violent by self-appointed leaders - who will use actual physical violence to either remove you from the area or even hand you over to the police. The fear of agent provocateurs as a method of divide-and-conquer holds more threat to a protest movement than any act of property destruction by an outside actor - but only so long as we refuse to buy into the Good Protester vs Bad Rioter narrative. This is one reason why diversity of tactics as a concept developed among radical Civil Rights leaders in early 1960s USA. Malcolm X gave a speech entitled "The Black Revolution" where he promoted solidarity between those who practiced armed resistance against racism, and those who practiced nonviolence and I think I'll let him get the last word in. He stated:

Quote:

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods or tactics or strategy to reach a common goal. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society.





Much to ponder. Thank you for your perspective.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: morrowasted]
    #26705899 - 05/29/20 10:07 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:


multi city protest

not live, it was a while ago


got a friend at the houston protest currently

sigh


so many words, yet so few. so many mixed feelings i cannot express




They were breaking windows in downtown Houston below my friend’s apartment earlier.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: koods]
    #26705906 - 05/29/20 10:09 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I dont even know man I am just gonna keep my mouth shut for now

lots of different feelings


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #26705907 - 05/29/20 10:10 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for taking the time to read it all - clearly it's an issue I feel is very important


It looks like the main lesson the cops have taken from all this is 'cameras are bad':


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Onlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: koods]
    #26705937 - 05/29/20 10:27 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
They were breaking windows in downtown Houston below my friend’s apartment earlier.






This is why I just applied for a gun permit today.  I feel it's a smart choice to arm myself given how crazy things are getting


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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake] * 1
    #26705963 - 05/29/20 10:39 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

They just set a hibachi restaurant ablaze. Nice!! That'll teach them.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: Niffla]
    #26705970 - 05/29/20 10:41 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

haha.

Ascension 2020. Are you guys ready for some radical social change? Cause its coming. Be Ready.


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InvisibleLophosaurus
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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake] * 3
    #26705971 - 05/29/20 10:41 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Shits going down in Oakland right now. I'm in the next city over and just seen a ton of cop cars heading that way and in a big hurry.

The protesters were being pretty peaceful until the cops started forcing them to leave the park they were in. They got angry and marched into the freeway and to the police stations. The police are provoking them and handling this all wrong.

This is really really bad and not going to stop any time soon. The cops deserve this though. They have been covering up for each other for far too long and have been going without punishment for the crimes and violence they commit. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of cops die tonight and over the next few days.

With Trump in office this may not end for weeks. The best outcome for this situation is for the people to drag Trump and his family through the streets and have the police surrender and be forced to reform their policies and actions. FUCK TRUMP AND FUCK THE POLICE!!!

The sad part is the arson, vandalism, and inncoent people, firefighters, EMT's being hurt and kept from doing their jobs.


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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: Lophosaurus]
    #26705979 - 05/29/20 10:43 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

FUCK THE POLICE.

This has been brewing for decades. DECADES. Its time for the people to Rise Up and fight back against the fucked-up Police State of the United States.

Rioting is the collateral damage, people get greedy. But the rioting is a reflection of what people are feeling, betrayed by the System we all live under. Theres a reason why I hate cops and its things like what happened to George Floyd that makes it very clear that cops cannot be trusted and major societal change is needed.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: Lophosaurus] * 1
    #26705983 - 05/29/20 10:44 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

To that Guy that burned down the Hibachi -  it’s not that bad man :nonono:


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Onlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #26705997 - 05/29/20 10:51 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Anyone got a live stream to the protest at the White House?


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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #26706007 - 05/29/20 10:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

This is what ive been seeing on the podcast i watch
https://dlive.tv/gloomtube


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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26706012 - 05/29/20 10:59 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

That link is a mess lol.
Overlapping audios, the chat room is clearly unmoderated and is a spam-fest.
Thank you anyways


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InvisibleLophosaurus
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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26706023 - 05/29/20 11:08 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
FUCK THE POLICE.

This has been brewing for decades. DECADES. Its time for the people to Rise Up and fight back against the fucked-up Police State of the United States.

Rioting is the collateral damage, people get greedy. But the rioting is a reflection of what people are feeling, betrayed by the System we all live under. Theres a reason why I hate cops and its things like what happened to George Floyd that makes it very clear that cops cannot be trusted and major societal change is needed.





Agreed! I hate the police too. I also hate that I hate the police.

The police should be the heroes of our society.

With Trump in office this may not end for weeks. The best outcome for this situation is for the people to drag Trump and his family through the streets and have the police surrender and be forced to reform their policies and actions. FUCK TRUMP AND FUCK THE POLICE. They should be people we look up to and the police should be the people we call when we need help and protection. The police should be the good guys, but they are far from the good guys lately.

When someone needs the police they are often scared to call them because they are afraid of what the police will do to them. The police have become a violent gang that goes along without any punishment for their wrong doings. They have become a gang of hateful people. They should be working for us and protecting us, but they are only out to protect each other.

How did the police not know this was coming? Did they really think they could get away with this behavior forever? I'm not looking for the police to be killed, but it is coming for a lot of them. Some police are great and do great things, the others are evil and I do want them punished in the most harsh way possible.


Oakland is wild right now and I'm not even near downtown. It's just sirens back and forth and everywhere. With the way the police are acting I can only see this being escalated.


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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26706032 - 05/29/20 11:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
To that Guy that burned down the Hibachi -  it’s not that bad man :nonono:




They need to take out the Jack in the Box next door

Burning down the Jack in the Box will be a huge victory for the war on police brutality


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Re: Chaos in Minnniapolis, MN last night regarding the death of George Lloyd *DELETED* [Re: Lophosaurus]
    #26706043 - 05/29/20 11:16 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by specialpeopleclub

Reason for deletion: .


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