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OfflinePeterPumpkinEater
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something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)?
    #26701824 - 05/28/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Curious if there is some natural compound that is selective towards lower but not higher fungi?
I doubt its been found yet.

Maybe different ratios of some substance can be used that mycelium could survive even though it is harmful, while killer "weaker" organisms?


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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: PeterPumpkinEater]
    #26701833 - 05/28/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Most people take the approach of not growing mold to begin with so you don't have to kill it. :shrug:


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OfflinePeterPumpkinEater
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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: Smartattack]
    #26701999 - 05/28/20 02:48 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I am talking about a preemptive measure that is selective...
I was just seeing that mushrooms dikaryotes are uniquely classified but all lower fungi are not given a combined label.
My reference is to the neglect of grouping all non-dikaryotes within the phylogenetic tree as seen here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dikarya

There is obviously a genetic marker that separates all these others from Dikaryotes, and I am just saying there might be some chemical that could be designed / is found in nature that selectively destroys non-dikaryotes.
Or a species that could be designed to do this. It would make the use of pressure cooking seem senseless which in my opinion may already be possibly be replaced by producing spawn whose moisture content has ozone incorporated into it, so that as endospores germinate during the preparation, they will die due to the presence of ozone.  It would save a lot of electrical costs in relation to pressure cooking.

I'm interested in new approaches as much as I am in getting actual shroom harvests, there are better cheaper more natural ways: but no one cares, its a pain in the ass, right!


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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: PeterPumpkinEater] * 1
    #26702034 - 05/28/20 03:04 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

You would need a cocktail of chemicals if you wanted to skip sterilization. No chemical inhibitor is perfect or broad enough. You'd need something for gram positive bacteria, gram negative, and probably a few different mold inhibitors that are selective for different things. I see no way a chemical cocktail of selective killing chemicals could be made cheaper, more natural, or more efficient than sterilization.


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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26702074 - 05/28/20 03:23 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Sterilizing is water and fire. Pretty natural elements already.


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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: Smartattack]
    #26702080 - 05/28/20 03:28 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

All sorts of selective media exists with chemicals that help inhibit some organisms allowing others go grow. But their use isn't widespread for a few reasons. They're not some magic bullet to make your life easier, they instead fill niche roles for quick QA/QC things.
In those settings you're enumerating a CFU count. The other microorganisms you're not interested in are inhibited so they don't confound your counts. Doesn't mean there not there, or all dead.
Those QA/QC plates get tossed after a computer takes a picture of them. We use plates as inoculant.

We WANT to see any contamination so we can avoid it and keep it out of our sterile media (spawn). If you hide contamination you'll have a far easier chance of accidentally moving it along to a worse place


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OfflinePeterPumpkinEater
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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26702279 - 05/28/20 05:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

cinnamon toast I say!

How could I hide a contaminant?
I want it dead.
What about ozone?
That kills, its like fire and water for that matter. Elementary my dear whatson, right/ riiiiiight?

what is a CFU count?

I've shared research articles on herbs and spices that seem to have different % in axing different fungi and bacteria. I'm just wondering maybe there IS a right mix to make cubes survive and the rest of the shit die off. But I am also going to get an ozone generator (construct it myself) and then instead of just soaking my grains or popcorn or whatever, I will soak them in water that is being ozonated... And if there's a contam in a jar, ram a pipe in there and pumpin SOME ozone to the site of the CFU specifically, while hopefully not damaging the desired colony of species too greatly... I am sure cubensis as a higher fungi may MAY right lol MAY be capable of sustaining a little more ozone than other weaker organisms? But whose to say they're weaker, I mean I don't know the nature of their cellular matrices vs cinnamon or vs ozone, you know? ..
you could theoretically (?) also slowly acclimatize a colony of mycelium to say cinnamon which is fungicidal, increase the dosage until its adapted, over I don't know, until you may use enough to kill all other microorganisms but not your adapted cultivar.


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Edited by PeterPumpkinEater (05/28/20 05:22 PM)


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OfflineSoccrates
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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: PeterPumpkinEater]
    #26704269 - 05/29/20 10:56 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

You sound a bit like a Monsanto engineer.

Round-up Ready cubes coming soon

I kid. A little.


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OfflinePeterPumpkinEater
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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: Soccrates]
    #26706949 - 05/30/20 11:03 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

hu hu hu.
You amuse me, sir.


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OfflineGan
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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: PeterPumpkinEater]
    #26706986 - 05/30/20 11:33 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

What would be the purpose of such a thing?


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OfflinePeterPumpkinEater
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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: Gan]
    #26707265 - 05/30/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

what thing?
are you addled, sir?

What would be the use of some compound that kills all lower fungi but not higher fungi, i.e. dikaryotes? well, the use would be expressly trivialized cultivation processes, sir.

That would be its use, if that was your point of referential inquiry.


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OfflineGan
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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: PeterPumpkinEater]
    #26707334 - 05/30/20 03:11 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Once you get everything down and figured out, it won't be necessary. Like someone said above, we avoid growing mold here so that there's no reason to go through processes to kill it. If you do everything correctly, should be seeing 90-95% success rate. In that case, using a costly additive wouldn't be worth using to save 5%-10% of jars (or any other kind of myc).

Quote:

PeterPumpkinEater said:
what thing?
are you addled, sir?




Also, don't know what this is about or why it's necessary? No one is questioning/challenging your intelligence. I only asked because a TC (Bod) above has already chimed in and filled you in on why it wouldn't be a viable strategy, only a potentially expensive crutch to poor technique and experience. I was simply asking, considering what others have said on this thread, what would be the purpose of testing this? Would it be just for a fun experiment or some other reason, since it wouldn't be worthwhile even if it did work?


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Edited by Gan (05/30/20 07:40 PM)


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OfflinePeterPumpkinEater
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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: Gan]
    #26708223 - 05/31/20 12:52 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I was just joking and I agree man, I know it will be a fucking waste of time and energy, and I now am more inclined to want shrooms than to care about new experiments. But yeah, I would have loved to be able to see if I could get a cubensis habtuated to the presence of the fungicide cinnamon, and use that to ease things, its just an idea, that no longer matter. and, i was just teasing you.

that one petri dis of yours really looks amazing on your signature...


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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: PeterPumpkinEater]
    #26709075 - 05/31/20 12:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I doubt cinnamon would stop most mushrooms already anyway


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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26709083 - 05/31/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I doubt it too since I use a damn good amount of home-made cinnamon-solution on my cannabis plants for mite conrol and soak the soil with it, and have had plenty of mush come up in said soil that I've mied spawn with...


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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: PeterPumpkinEater]
    #26709170 - 05/31/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

If you could understand just how many contaminates are in one cubic foot of air..!

This info was an eye opener for me and help me In my growing techniques..


https://mycotopia.net/topic/93548-an-aloha-medicinals-scholarship-month-log/

scroll down and read:
How is air quality measure?


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OfflinePeterPumpkinEater
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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26710304 - 06/01/20 01:42 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
I doubt cinnamon would stop most mushrooms already anyway




You're very wrong there, I have posted some research threads about that. Cinnamon is highly antifungal and antibacterial. Ihave not posted all of them on here, though. Just some (another thread on shroomery)... in fact I posted possibly an article related to a range of herbs and spices that where tested that revealed some pretty vicious antifungal properties... Thyme is a big killer :p


Cinnamon:
"Mvuemba et al. [74] evaluated the inhibitory effects of aqueous extracts of four spices (cinnamon, ginger, nutmeg, and horseradish) on the growth of mycelial of various spoilage pathogens (A. niger, Fusarium sambucinum (F. sambucinum), Pythium sulcatum (P. sulcatum), and Rhizopus stolonifera  (R. stolonifera)). At the concentration of 0.05 g/mL, cinnamon extract totally inhibited A. niger and P. sulcatum, while at the level of 0.10 and 0.15 g/mL F. sambucinum and R. stolonifer were completely inhibited, respectively."

Oregano:
Ozcan et al. [39] investigated the antifungal activities of four spice decoctions against six molds (Fusarium oxysporum f. sp. phaseoli, Macrophomina phaseoli (M. phaseoli), Botrytis cinerea (B. cinerea), Rhizoctonia solani (R. solani), Alternaria solani (A. solani), and Alternaria parasiticus (A. parasiticus)). The results showed that the mycelial growth were 100% inhibited by 10% oregano decoction in culture medium

A quote or two from:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317635651_Antibacterial_and_Antifungal_Activities_of_Spices#pf35%C2%A0


However there is another post I made specifically related to cinnamon that refers to a different article that gives specific ratios for mixing cinnamon with water to get a 0.5% cinnamon solution and 1% solution, both of which where tested in preventing pathogens on tomato plants.

I have cut and paste this from the other thread for your convenience, also

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8834832/

The second one is more related to my post and is merely for informative and experimental purposes. I am not making any claims about cinnamon, just saying it may be worth testing out...:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10658-019-01882-0

0.5% suspension = 5 gram of cinnamon in 1 liter luke warm (26 celsius) water.
That is 9.5 ml of cinnamon...
The springer study also relates a 1% cinnamon suspension, or 19 milliters cinnamon to 1 liter of water...


5 gram cinnamon = 9.5 ml  from
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=5+gram+cinnamon+%3D+ml

worth a gander...
I will definitely try and test this a bit...
I wonder if it could be selective against higher vs lower fungi, or if someone with sterile lab with petri dishes to experiment for exact results? I for one, do not. Hence my search for alternatives to do a ghetto grow in a non-sterile environment using more natural procedures. This quest is now in its 14th year, with no success, haha.

It would be interesting to compare though, the effect on say a plate of trich and a plate of cube mycelium sprayed with a cinnamon solution.


But here is a more specific quote from the springer article about a 1% cinnamon filtrate on PDA in the lab:

Results and discussion
In the laboratory experiment, the potential of cinnamon water suspensions vs. cinnamon filtrates in reducing B. cinerea growth on PDA medium was evaluated. Three days after PDA inoculation the highest inhibition effect of mycelial growth was obtained while using 1% of cinnamon water suspensions and 1% of cinnamon filtrates, which reduced the fungus lesion by 64 and 47.8%, respectively (Table 1). Taking into account all the treatments (with water suspension and filtrate and the two concentrations – 0.5 and 1%), prolongation of the experiment from 3 to 6 days resulted in an average increase of the mycelium lesions diameter from 10.8 to 60.3 mm. In the same time the changes in the effectiveness of the two cinnamon formulations were observed. After 6 days the effect of cinnamon suspensions (both 0.5 and 1%) was very weak to none - in fact the statistical analysis proved no curative effect. The positive effect was found using cinnamon filtrates – 0.5% filtrate concentration decreased B. cinerea mycelium growth by 54.4% and 1% filtrate gave a lesions reduction by 81.4% (Table 1). In other words, the best inhibitory effect in an in vitro study was obtained while using 1% filtrate of cinnamon powder.



Edited by PeterPumpkinEater (06/01/20 01:50 AM)


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OfflinePeterPumpkinEater
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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: micelio]
    #26710305 - 06/01/20 01:43 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

micelio said:
If you could understand just how many contaminates are in one cubic foot of air..!

This info was an eye opener for me and help me In my growing techniques..


https://mycotopia.net/topic/93548-an-aloha-medicinals-scholarship-month-log/

scroll down and read:
How is air quality measure?




Nice share. did you hear about Aloha MEdicinals' "spontaneous orgasm mushroom"? Dyctiophora indusiata, I believe Dr. J. Holliday and N. S(e?)oul wrote a research paper on it, its found there on volcanoes.


I am thinking about making a positive pressure ozonated glove-box, it would be far cheaper than a HEPA to work in it... There is nothing I can do about the cleanliness of our home. I would need a swarm of maids, this place is Mildew Meccah...


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Edited by PeterPumpkinEater (06/01/20 01:44 AM)


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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: PeterPumpkinEater]
    #26710518 - 06/01/20 05:26 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I'm just curious why instead of posting  other people's research and saying it would be worth trying, you didn't actually try to do it and then posted your results.

The problem with this thread in my opinion is that it can be a misleading example of how not to so things and cause a new grower issues when they first attempt to cultivate mushrooms.

If you have good clean sterile technique, there isn't any real use for any of these theories because you won't grow molds in the first place.

Now if you were looking for a healthy organic alternative to create a spray disenfectant to clean your sink I could possibly see where this might be relevant.


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OfflinePeterPumpkinEater
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Re: something that kills molds (lower fungi) but not mycelium (higher fungi)? [Re: Sockadin]
    #26715690 - 06/03/20 02:48 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

well I am going to experiment (soon, too).
It was a question, I was trying to stimulate deliberation, not jump to conclusions. Its an open-ended question really.

But yes, I shall post some of my results which we should see in the next 1-4 weeks...


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