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Fletchmarx
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Using coco coir with pf cakes 1
#26698013 - 05/26/20 08:58 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm totally new to this but I have been doing my research here on the shroomery and I have decided I'm going to try to grow 4 different sets of mushrooms. I'm going to use the fr tek first and a SGFC then go to bulk substrate being sterile rye berries and pasteurized hourse manure.
Anyway this is my question what if I took the cakes and crumbled them up in the bottom of a monotub then covered it in coco coir and hydrated it well. Would this work?
Thanks
Edited by Fletchmarx (05/26/20 09:01 PM)
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Mad Hatter
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: Fletchmarx] 1
#26698025 - 05/26/20 09:11 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yup but youd want to mix with coir and not just cover. Hydrate using cooler tek. But if youre going to make grain spawn skip the pf tek if you havent gotten materials yet and just go to coir/verm (more forgiving than manure and easier to prep) shoe boxes.
Get a 12 pack of qt mason jars and 12 lids with injections ports (can make your own for cheap) 1 jar will do one shoe box.
I find this best for newbies as you can easily get multiple subs going that dont require much attention.
Also since youre likely to inoculate using a spore syringe, a crap shoot when it comes to contams, you wont have to worry about a single jar contaminating the other, possibly, clean jars when you spawn. Tossing out a sub hurts when youre first starting but not nearly as bad when you have a few more.
Edited by Mad Hatter (05/26/20 09:12 PM)
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MethodicalMystical
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: Mad Hatter]
#26698038 - 05/26/20 09:23 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Shoeboxes are a great way to go if you're a noob but still want to try out bulk. Treat crumbled cakes as you would grain spawn according to the teks (2-3 for every 1qt) and save the rye for if/when you start working with agar (which is highly recommended if you plan to make a hobby out of this)
-------------------- I know I'm a fool, but that's why I keep trying to learn.
 
I also have some 3-year Cambodian prints to get rid of. DM me if interested
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Mad Hatter
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Shoe boxes are also great for testing many culture's so if you get results you like you can clone you favorites.
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DnDRnD
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: Mad Hatter] 1
#26698054 - 05/26/20 09:33 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Spores to grain is a terrible idea
PF tek shredded to bulk works fine, personally I did that for awhile before getting into agar
I HIGHLY recommend start with the PF tek like your considering and start learning agar at the same time
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Caps McGee
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: Mad Hatter]
#26698070 - 05/26/20 09:42 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Hatter said: Shoe boxes are also great for testing many culture's so if you get results you like you can clone you favorites.
LOVE running SB tests... substantial enough to be worth the spacetime allocation, yet small enough to not be a total loss with poor performers
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Mad Hatter
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: DnDRnD]
#26698110 - 05/26/20 10:04 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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The only thing i inoculate with spores is agar but id prefer spores to grain over pf tek for shoe boxes if i was starting out again. 1 jar per shoebox vs 3-4 jars pershoes box has a better chance not see a contam as you only need 1 jar to be clean.
Plus if he moves further on with this hobby the qt jars will be used again and again 1/2pint jars become useless once you move up. My 1/2 pint jars just collect dust now for the most part.
Also grains you only need a drop of spore solution while pf tek you use a whole cc per jar. Youll expand more mycelium with a singles syringe with grain than cakes. The single drop also lowers contam risks as you use less and spore syringes arnt sterile. Id rather have 12 qt jars of grains inoculated with spores with plenty left over for another 12 than use an entire syringe on 10 pf cakes.
When it comes down to it spores are a crap shoot unless cleaned on agar. Grain just offers more opportunities for success off 1 10ml syringe imho.
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DnDRnD
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: Mad Hatter]
#26700058 - 05/27/20 06:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Hatter said: The only thing i inoculate with spores is agar but id prefer spores to grain over pf tek for shoe boxes if i was starting out again. 1 jar per shoebox vs 3-4 jars pershoes box has a better chance not see a contam as you only need 1 jar to be clean.
Plus if he moves further on with this hobby the qt jars will be used again and again 1/2pint jars become useless once you move up. My 1/2 pint jars just collect dust now for the most part.
Also grains you only need a drop of spore solution while pf tek you use a whole cc per jar. Youll expand more mycelium with a singles syringe with grain than cakes. The single drop also lowers contam risks as you use less and spore syringes arnt sterile. Id rather have 12 qt jars of grains inoculated with spores with plenty left over for another 12 than use an entire syringe on 10 pf cakes.
When it comes down to it spores are a crap shoot unless cleaned on agar. Grain just offers more opportunities for success off 1 10ml syringe imho.

1 jar that has a 50-75 percent chance of contamination is more likely to succeed than 3-4 jars with a 10-25 percent chance of contamination? No way Jose!
Grains are MUCH more susceptible to contamination than a PF tek due to the increased nutrient content and endospores as well.
PF cakes are successful from spores because of the vermiculite and reduced nutrient content, bacteria and molds have a hard time growing on the substrate compared to on straight whole grains PLUS no PC is required for PF cakes to sterilize in a reasonable amount of time
You can use less than 1 CC per jar on PF cakes as well without worry.
When using spores agar and PF cakes are the ONLY recommended option for good reason.
Grains in no way offer more opportunities for success from spores since they have a MUCH higher chance of contaminating whole grains versus a PF cake therefore a PF tek would be better starting from spores.
You can literally do a SINGLE in vitro PF grow and clone the sterile fruits to grains and NEVER touch a syringe again (granted I will admit that does take practice)
Also you realize that as long as you get a SINGLE mushroom from either whole grains or PF cakes then by printing it you now have enough spores for 10-20 more syringes? Why not take the consistently more successful option?
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Mad Hatter
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: DnDRnD] 2
#26700119 - 05/27/20 06:37 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Where'd you get those statistics?
First time i ever grew i did grain and pf tek. Did 10 qts of grain and 10 brf cakes. Not a single contamination on my grains and 2 cakes contaminated. Same syringe. This may be purely anecdotal ill admit that. Plus if i inoculated anything with spores i wouldnt want to spawn multiple jars into the same sub. If you use 3-4 jars only 1 needs to be bad to ruin the whole bulk so it raises the odds for failure.
I know once you cultivate them you can take spore prints or clonea and never need to get a newsyringe but a lot of people that are just starting out dont want to mess with agar or make syringes.
By more chances I am refering to what you can accomplish with just a single syringe. I know you can use less on cakes but 1cc is standard while just a drop is standard for grains Either way you go you can get spores or clones to use in future grows.
Ive only used spores to grain and cakes once but grains were more successful as far as contamination goes and produced far more fruits than the cakes. So in my experience when using spores grains are more successful. Granted it was only 1 grow since i got a flowhood and agar shortly after.
I never make syringes. I always use a loop to inoculate agar which i find to be a much better use a print than making syringes.
Just my opinion and experience
Edited by Mad Hatter (05/27/20 06:51 PM)
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DnDRnD
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: Mad Hatter]
#26700152 - 05/27/20 06:56 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Hatter said:
Ive only used spores to grain and cakes once but grains were more successful as far as contamination goes and produced far more fruits than the cakes.
I'm getting those numbers as a rough estimate for percentages based off my experience and post on the shroomery of spores to grain successes versus failures (it's a rough number so it's not entirely accurate)
Well dude, I know I'm contradicting myself but try it again. That could've been due to many factors such as a simple user error mistake or could've been pure luck I mean I've gotten lucky with grows before to. Alot of times simply not flaming the needle between jars can be the culprit or any simple slight over sight that we all make you know?
I know this is gonna sound sort of rude but I can say with strong certainty that the grains were atleast bacterial mabye not a heavy contamination but most likely bacterial since no syringe is clean, when people get lucky with spores to grain they get moderate bacteria levels with a reduced yield. I spent awhile doing spores to grain when I started out and even the best of the best jars were bacterial to some degree
I can understand what you mean by more chances with a single syringe but I was more trying to point out that while you can make more attempts that way your chances of it working are still the same so it very well could be a wild goose chase potentially if that makes sense? Sort of like say you use the whole syringes your odds of never seeing a mushroom are higher when you use whole grains even though it's more jars due to the higher contamination rate
I agree though syringes kinda suck unless your doing LC or LI I've been using a loop for awhile now and it takes a minute to get the hang on of but once you do they're AMAZING! Although I will admit I did forget to re flame it one time (see we all can make simple errors, heck even bod and caps McGee make mistakes!) And ended up with over a dozen plates of oysters instead of only 3 
Alot of beginners do end up making they're own syringes though (once the original runs out)
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Mad Hatter
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: DnDRnD]
#26700209 - 05/27/20 07:26 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I can asure you they wernt bacterial at all. I know syringes arnt clean and a crap shoot. im pretty experienced been growing mushrooms for 7 years and any mushroom culture i can get my hands on. Proably have close to 100 moncultures of various strains and cultures. I agree it may have been luck thats why i said granted it was only 1 grow and anecdotal experience. Not saying what im suggesting as concrete factual data just my experience. Never took an exact weight but off of 2 64qt monos i got 2 gallons of dry mushrooms) Both tubs got 6 flushes. Tossed because production was at almost 0 still no contamination. I do think luck played a part im not denying that. Was just putting in my 2 cents.
I know some people after their first grow takes clones/prints since thats what i did, but i also know some people just get a new syringe each time as i have friends that do that because they dont want to get anything besides a tub, pc, and jars.
Id personally only inoculate liquid cultures with agar since you cant really tell if theyre clean by just looking at them. Finally got a 1000ml eberbach container for lcs
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DnDRnD
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: Mad Hatter]
#26700348 - 05/27/20 08:11 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I meant syringes are only good for USING LC/LI meaning they're only good for injecting your LC into your jar or bag unless you pour it in I should've worded that better my bad lol
2 gallon bags dry off 6 flushes of TWO 64 quart monos may sound like alot at first glance but how much spawn did you use? Cause you should get minimum of 1 OZ DRY per QT of spawn and that's 1 OZ per quart on just the first flush a 64 quart mono uses multiple quarts of spawn
The whole point is OP has a good idea of PF to bulk which is a trusted method time and time again and your recommending that OP takes a more risky route? Just doesnt make sense when one tek has been proven to work from spores consistently with an extremely high success rate and the other tek is 50/50 at best
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mushhead
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: DnDRnD]
#26700399 - 05/27/20 08:34 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Mateja


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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: Mad Hatter]
#26700534 - 05/27/20 10:05 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DnDRnD said: Id personally only inoculate liquid cultures with agar since you cant really tell if theyre clean by just looking at them.
But actually you can know that a LC is clean, it's when it colonizes and fruits 
And I personally feel like you can definitely rely on the inspection of the LC much more than what is usually being said about it. Every organism that gains a foothold will eventually colonize the broth more or less fully and when you start with a crystal clear broth from for example 0.1% ELMA and you drop down an agar wedge (not the biopsy method) and you see the culture from the agar wedge fragment and inspect it daily and is rapidly multiplies its fairly easy to spot when suddenly some fragments don't resemble the rest or if the water suddenly goes turbid, or if the mycelial colony suddenly halts or slows down considerably. There are definitely ways to keep a meaningful track of what's going on inside a LC broth and don't have to feel like you're taking a shot in the dark by pouring. Also instead of making one LC one can make 5-10 different broths with the identical recipe and the same clone and then it's even easier to notice when something is off or when everything looks good imo.
I recently made LC, then inoculated BRF cakes with that then made slurry from those cakes, inoculated grain, now I will use the best looking jars to do g2g just to see when I will notice anything, so far everything looks clean as expected and it all started from clean LC.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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Mad Hatter
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: Mateja]
#26700557 - 05/27/20 10:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well yea if it colonizes and fruits its clean. But its unknown if its clean before you inoculate. I personally wouldnt want to waste time, grains, or subs on a lc unless i was sure it was clean.
If you inoculate with spores theres a good chance it isnt clean.
Yea it may be dominant in the lc but as soon as you inoculate something with it you give an opportunity for any contaminants hiding to proliferate and it doesnt take much.
When it comes down to it you can inspect lc but you wont be able to be 100% sure its clean by just looking. If it looks off its probably really bad.
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Mad Hatter
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: DnDRnD]
#26700567 - 05/27/20 10:22 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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It was probably about 4 qts per tub since the jars wernt completely full. I did weigh some just stopped after it reached a lb....
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DnDRnD
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: Mad Hatter]
#26700589 - 05/27/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said:
Quote:
DnDRnD said: Id personally only inoculate liquid cultures with agar since you cant really tell if theyre clean by just looking at them.
That's not my quote that's mad hatter's? Its from literally like 3 post up?
Quote:
Mad Hatter said: It was probably about 4 qts per tub since the jars wernt completely full. I did weigh some just stopped after it reached a lb....
So your claim is that off of 8 quarts inoculated with a spore syringe you got over 16 OZ's?
Sorry bro
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Mad Hatter
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: DnDRnD]
#26700598 - 05/27/20 10:39 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well it was 7 years ago it was also on a manure/coffee ground sub. So the grains werent the only nutes. 5 qt jars per sub but werent filled entirely so i could shake thats why i said about 4. Little bit over a 4 inch sub. Im not trying to brag just trying to iterate my sub wasnt bacterial which you claimed it probably was.
Believe me or not I dont care i have nothing to gain by making outlandish claims to people on the internet.
Edited by Mad Hatter (05/27/20 10:41 PM)
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Using coco coir with pf cakes [Re: Mad Hatter]
#26700676 - 05/28/20 12:11 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I mean, it doesn't really matter either way. Your luck with one run of each when you were a noob isn't actually relevant to the question of which is most likely to be successful in general
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Sockadin



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Damn and this whole time I thought the op was gonna use coco coir instead of vermiculite in a of grow...
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