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OfflineLion
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The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge * 1
    #26695868 - 05/25/20 10:10 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

There's a saying that every politician wants people to believe he gave birth to and raised himself, in a log cabin that he himself built.

I think that's an American phrase and one of the things behind it is a tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge, or value gained by direct experience, trial and error, versus knowledge given, guided and honed by a mentor or authority. Maybe the individualistic U.S. has more of this tension than other countries that value custom, ritual, authority, the family unit and the community unit more.

I often reflect on the fact that everything has more or less been done - "There is no new thing under the Sun" as it's put in the Bible. In most cases, whatever thing you're working on - unless you're really on the cutting edge of complex technology - other, more intelligent people - or more intellectually organized, or more uninhibited, or more intuitive, or more or less ethical people, or whatever the case might be - have already spent a lot of time working on it and accumulating knowledge.

If your thing is to do amazing wood work, or program video games, or cultivate excellent organic crops, or whatever it is, at some point it becomes really foolish not to look at and study what others have done before.

I feel some kind of visceral dislike, not of receiving knowledge - I love to learn - but of making the effort to get better at something I want to be good at by using lessons or instructions that someone has put together. My mind just recoils at the idea of taking specific practices and techniques and working on them in a methodical way. It just wants to get into the groove and learn by imaging how it all might be done. That can lead to some great, flowing experiences, but it can also leave you frustrated if you spend hours and hours practicing something you like and objectively do many parts of it poorly, or in an unnecessarily inefficient or difficult way.

Ideally there has to be some mix of discovery, exploration, free form interaction, and regularity, structure, and incrementally received knowledge. Depending on who you are and what you're involved with, the balance between those two approaches can probably shift in one direction or the other for long periods.

This might also have a lot to do with different personality types, but I think it also goes deeper to something cultural or innate.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Lion]
    #26696258 - 05/26/20 05:16 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

cultural or personal idiosyncrasies, traumas, habits, and maybe excuses to explain why you did or did not learn something?

in the past knowledge was earned and learned by apprenticeship.
now it is disrespected in general (especially by the big fake apprentice in charge and by his followers), and locked down as data and for-pay courseware, though you may be lucky to get apprenticeship too.

if there is tension, it's probably trauma, or you are in the throes of self teaching from unlocked sources.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisibleremake
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Lion]
    #26696340 - 05/26/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Pretty interesting podcast snip about creativity, I think this might be somewhat interesting to you. Not sure if it's 100% related to your questions, but yeah.


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Offlinelostintimenspc
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: remake] * 1
    #26697219 - 05/26/20 02:41 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

We're in a state of intense stagnation because the trauma of history has built up in the collective unconscious, especially in white people.

What we actually need is a mass desertion of the way things stand, except for the authority of government, and we need Buddhas to process the trauma of history.

I think in the end, if humanity is to survive, we all need to be Buddhas. That is the story of religion - trying to make that happen.

Well it has to. We can't have half-assed masses roaming a planet that is clearly part of a divine purpose.


--------------------
LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life'

Your life, your call.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: lostintimenspc]
    #26697592 - 05/26/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

we have lost the tension


--------------------
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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26698363 - 05/27/20 12:57 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The mind that is worthy is worthy of anything relating to anything that is currently going on.. in space of perception(space) (da'at)

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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26698367 - 05/27/20 01:00 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The features of perception is true.. boundaries only exist to define things, knowledge and the occupying space of things.. space taken

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Invisiblechronotope999
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: lostintimenspc]
    #26698411 - 05/27/20 01:59 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

There's a lot to this.

One of the issues we have is that our news cycle/media is less likely to broadcast viewpoints that are subtly insightful, and more likely to broadcast outrage.

Problem is, it becomes a feedback loop.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26698579 - 05/27/20 04:40 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
The mind that is worthy is worthy of anything relating to anything that is currently going on.. in space of perception(space) (da'at)



how can any mind be more worthy than any other mind?
that just seems dumb.
or is dumb unworthy?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Lion]
    #26698631 - 05/27/20 05:41 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

All knowledge is completely dependent upon the quality of the question being asked.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26700458 - 05/27/20 09:14 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

How can a mind be more worthy?

The mind that chooses the correct path.. and even then some minds are prone to be better at different things.. different subjects different skills..

What would the world look like if we were all the same?

More worthy? Well it depends in what area..

In the relational equal basis we all have capacity for special skills.. able to attain enlightenment and the ability to tell the truth..

Every person has a slightly different struggle than anyone else though..

Always good to hear from you redgreenvines!

:blush:

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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #26700724 - 05/28/20 12:59 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Worthiness is a mere matter of opinion. I think capability is what matters

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Apples in Mono] * 1
    #26701064 - 05/28/20 06:53 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

capability is fine, but if you share what you are capable of, then what you do is valuable to others.

maybe worthiness is about not holding back what is worth sharing.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26701143 - 05/28/20 07:38 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

But others may not value our capabilities. Even if they do, and therefore deem them worthy, I think that's separate from whether or not they've truly benefitted from them. I think I'd prefer believing that i provided a truly profound benefit to the experiences of others, yet remain unappreciated, than to be found worthy without believing I'd ever actually  enriched their experiences.

That's not to say it isn't awesome to feel valued, but I'd trade it in a second for the capability to truly earn it


Edited by Apples in Mono (05/28/20 07:54 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Apples in Mono] * 1
    #26701321 - 05/28/20 09:28 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

right like a jewel in the rough,
worthy and of unseen benefit to many, yet uncaring of acceptance and fame


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Lion]
    #26702253 - 05/28/20 05:05 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
There's a saying that every politician wants people to believe he gave birth to and raised himself, in a log cabin that he himself built.

I think that's an American phrase and one of the things behind it is a tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge, or value gained by direct experience, trial and error, versus knowledge given, guided and honed by a mentor or authority. Maybe the individualistic U.S. has more of this tension than other countries that value custom, ritual, authority, the family unit and the community unit more.

I often reflect on the fact that everything has more or less been done - "There is no new thing under the Sun" as it's put in the Bible. In most cases, whatever thing you're working on - unless you're really on the cutting edge of complex technology - other, more intelligent people - or more intellectually organized, or more uninhibited, or more intuitive, or more or less ethical people, or whatever the case might be - have already spent a lot of time working on it and accumulating knowledge.

If your thing is to do amazing wood work, or program video games, or cultivate excellent organic crops, or whatever it is, at some point it becomes really foolish not to look at and study what others have done before.

I feel some kind of visceral dislike, not of receiving knowledge - I love to learn - but of making the effort to get better at something I want to be good at by using lessons or instructions that someone has put together. My mind just recoils at the idea of taking specific practices and techniques and working on them in a methodical way. It just wants to get into the groove and learn by imaging how it all might be done. That can lead to some great, flowing experiences, but it can also leave you frustrated if you spend hours and hours practicing something you like and objectively do many parts of it poorly, or in an unnecessarily inefficient or difficult way.

Ideally there has to be some mix of discovery, exploration, free form interaction, and regularity, structure, and incrementally received knowledge. Depending on who you are and what you're involved with, the balance between those two approaches can probably shift in one direction or the other for long periods.

This might also have a lot to do with different personality types, but I think it also goes deeper to something cultural or innate.




I see a huge tie here to leadership.

I think leaders typically get the direction they want to move in through direct knowledge as opposed to from another's knowledge. But when moving in their desired direction, will employ anything and everything that enables progress towards that end. It doesn't matter who's idea it is as long as it feeds towards the end goal. Discernment here is necessary to ensure it does in fact feed towards the end goal.

That's how I see effective leaders navigate this push and pull. By keeping a constant focus on the end goal and achieving their egoic needs by witnessing movement towards that goal.

Less effective leaders have the vision but seem to lose focus of the end goal and get caught up in an egoic pull of each element along the way.

And sheep don't seem to have a vision at all but want to feel like they do by sharing in another's vision.

FWIW I consider myself somewhere between an ineffective leader and a sheep depending on what's happening. I don't have a strong vision for where I want the world to be so I have nowhere to lead it. And during those times when I do want to lead I can get stuck in the details pretty quickly.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Kickle]
    #26702312 - 05/28/20 05:37 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I would say we received that but did not really learn it.


--------------------
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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26702333 - 05/28/20 05:49 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

do you mean leadership? that we receive that impetus rather than learn it?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Kickle]
    #26702411 - 05/28/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I think everybody is a combination of a sheep, ineffective leader, and a focused leader.  We morph in and out of each category redefining terms.  Although some tend more towards one category or another.  It is also difficult to identify the point at which the sheep’s following becomes its own striving.  Is a sheep always a sheep or can it transform itself?  Questions like this are mind boggling.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26702474 - 05/28/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe? I think I look at a lifetime for my ultimate decision.

Like when history looks at the accomplishments and determines leadership that way. There are "leaders" or "rulers" that were garbage because IMO they were similar to myself. With no real direction to lead in and often dragged into the muck of day-to-day dealings. Then you have the Hitlers and the Ghandis who were really motivated by a distinct direction and goal and maintained that focus through a lot.

And I dunno if a sheep is ever otherwise? When I think about it I think of those folks who have a death and then decide to start a group to prevent it in the future. Like MADD (Mom's Against Drunk Driving) or something to that effect. Maybe they were always leaders or maybe those traumatic events are a catalyst that provides a focus that wasn't there prior. Dunno. Haven't met those folks in person to ask.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Kickle]
    #26702515 - 05/28/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Perhaps you would categorize yourself as a manager then?  No real ideals in mind but simply trying to manage an often unbecoming situation?  At any rate there is a lot there.  People have their personalities that are somewhat flexible but not much.  :shrug:

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26702613 - 05/28/20 07:56 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

something like that

but more so I think tying it to the OP it's how we approach what we learn. can we distinguish between our own understanding and that of others and moreover can we utilize the knowledge of others to aid in what we have as our own.

if a mathematician creates a new theorem and explains it to me, I'm unlikely to know what the heck they are talking about in any real meaningful way.

But if I'm the head of Google, I might find a way to get that same individual to apply their theorem in machine learning to further self driving cars, never needing to understand the specifics, only needing to understand the importance of new mathematical theorems in machine learning. Finding a way to understand how it fits into a larger goal without needing to take the hours of study to comprehend the ins and outs of how this individual came to this theorem and replicate it myself. 

Receiving the knowledge in a way but earning it also by providing a structure for it to become more.


Taking it away from politics and business:
What good is our knowledge if we do not apply it towards something? Whether we learn it first hand or from a book. Does it make any difference? It's the application that gets sticky IMO. That's why I think leadership is so key here. Knowledge goes where we lead.

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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Kickle]
    #26702767 - 05/28/20 09:11 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

We should understand everyone has a purpose on Earth..

Anything you do and like doing.. BHAM destiny! Meaning/purpose..:smile:

As for leadership and leaders.. well we need them at least at this point in our evolution..

My final cue..? Someone has to do it.. at least these leaders have a vision..

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26702786 - 05/28/20 09:19 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Indeed, indeed :stoned:

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26703493 - 05/29/20 04:55 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
We should understand everyone has a purpose on Earth..

Anything you do and like doing.. BHAM destiny! Meaning/purpose..:smile:

As for leadership and leaders.. well we need them at least at this point in our evolution..

My final cue..? Someone has to do it.. at least these leaders have a vision..



I really disagree with these words ("purpose" "destiny") but not with the intent of an idea that accommodates people with different aptitudes willingly joining together to make the world a better place than if we just sat on our buts in a cave.


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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26703658 - 05/29/20 07:12 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

yeah I also just came to understand that it's like the buttom line

like the gist of it

strange that it takes all the time to 28 to understand it


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26705951 - 05/29/20 10:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

What I'm saying.. when you find your purpose.. whatever that be may.. you have a destiny..

It's as simple as either of these two things..

1: You enjoy doing something.

2: Your really good at something and can't avoid continuing said endeavor

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26706681 - 05/30/20 08:38 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I think you are making excuses for using words that mean nothing.
that also can become a habit.


--------------------
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OfflineForresterM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26707073 - 05/30/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Drop destiny, but how does the word purpose mean nothing?


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #26707178 - 05/30/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

people don't have purpose, we are people, we live, we have the right to live without justifying ourselves.

tools have purpose,
products have purpose.

that's what I mean.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineForresterM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26707193 - 05/30/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
people don't have purpose, we are people, we live, we have the right to live without justifying ourselves.

tools have purpose,
products have purpose.

that's what I mean.




That depends on your beliefs.  If you believe there is existence outside of the human experience and one chooses to incarnate here, there could be a purpose you wanted to accomplish.  Many believe this.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.

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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #26707422 - 05/30/20 04:28 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

isn't every subject also an object. I think we objectify ourselves and others all the time, and therefore imbue ourselves and others with purpose. I think it's unavoidable. And I don't think it's a bad thing or a good thing per se. It depends on how we utilize ourselves and others.

What I don't relate to is the very common desire to be utilized by a cosmic master

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #26707525 - 05/30/20 05:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
people don't have purpose, we are people, we live, we have the right to live without justifying ourselves.

tools have purpose,
products have purpose.

that's what I mean.




That depends on your beliefs.  If you believe there is existence outside of the human experience and one chooses to incarnate here, there could be a purpose you wanted to accomplish.  Many believe this.



Oh, that stuff I call baggage, not purpose.
it's good to examine what you carry - less is more.


--------------------
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OfflineForresterM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26707590 - 05/30/20 05:42 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I don't consider having a reason to be here carrying baggage, but to each their own.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Apples in Mono]
    #26707694 - 05/30/20 06:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Apples in Mono said:
isn't every subject also an object. I think we objectify ourselves and others all the time, and therefore imbue ourselves and others with purpose. I think it's unavoidable. And I don't think it's a bad thing or a good thing per se. It depends on how we utilize ourselves and others.

What I don't relate to is the very common desire to be utilized by a cosmic master




Think it also depends on how one identities with things.  Some consider thoughts and passions and hunches to be themselves while others feel they receive it.

Further yet some who admit they receive things will state they receive them from a deeper aspect of themself but not conscious.

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26707746 - 05/30/20 06:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
people don't have purpose, we are people, we live, we have the right to live without justifying ourselves.

tools have purpose,
products have purpose.

that's what I mean.



Aren't we tools of evolution..?

Tools of the way(Tao)

Tools of God?

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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26707886 - 05/30/20 08:26 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

Apples in Mono said:
isn't every subject also an object. I think we objectify ourselves and others all the time, and therefore imbue ourselves and others with purpose. I think it's unavoidable. And I don't think it's a bad thing or a good thing per se. It depends on how we utilize ourselves and others.

What I don't relate to is the very common desire to be utilized by a cosmic master




Think it also depends on how one identities with things.  Some consider thoughts and passions and hunches to be themselves while others feel they receive it.

Further yet some who admit they receive things will state they receive them from a deeper aspect of themself but not conscious.




It's definitely tough to pin down a solid definition of "self" or a criteria for "personhood", and to the extent we can, there's plenty of disagreement. But whatever it is you consider a person to be, once you've defined one, I think you've objectified them and can potentially utilize them. And I think that can be a wonderful thing

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Apples in Mono]
    #26707902 - 05/30/20 08:39 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Self means motives..

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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #26707905 - 05/30/20 08:41 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
people don't have purpose, we are people, we live, we have the right to live without justifying ourselves.

tools have purpose,
products have purpose.

that's what I mean.



Aren't we tools of evolution..?

Tools of the way(Tao)

Tools of God?




I hope we aren't tools of a god. It does seem to be a possibility, but fortunately, I see no reason to to be convinced of it.

However, I don't think it makes sense to call us tools of evolution- not in anything but a loose, metaphorical sense. But I think the sort of tool we've been speaking of is something utilized with intent. And I don't think evolution has intentions

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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26707910 - 05/30/20 08:42 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Self means motives..




It means motives to YOU. Whatever "you" are:wink:

I think you are a strange loop

Edited by Apples in Mono (05/30/20 08:51 PM)

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester]
    #26708491 - 05/31/20 05:27 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
I don't consider having a reason to be here carrying baggage, but to each their own.



did you find your purpose?
or ru still looking?


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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Apples in Mono] * 1
    #26708495 - 05/31/20 05:30 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Apples in Mono said:
Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
people don't have purpose, we are people, we live, we have the right to live without justifying ourselves.

tools have purpose,
products have purpose.

that's what I mean.



Aren't we tools of evolution..?

Tools of the way(Tao)

Tools of God?




I hope we aren't tools of a god. It does seem to be a possibility, but fortunately, I see no reason to to be convinced of it.

However, I don't think it makes sense to call us tools of evolution- not in anything but a loose, metaphorical sense. But I think the sort of tool we've been speaking of is something utilized with intent. And I don't think evolution has intentions



evolution is not an entity. it does not use anything. (do not replace the concept god with the word 'evolution')
scientist use many tools - evolution is a good working idea about the history of life.


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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26708517 - 05/31/20 05:54 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
did you find your purpose?
or ru still looking?




I didn't mean to imply that it even was something that should be searched for, or even known when found, just the belief that one has a purpose at all. 

So in this way it doesn't need to weigh on one at all, unless you force it to, which I would agree isn't helpful and would become baggage.

So to answer your question, no I haven't found it, and no I am not looking :wink:


--------------------
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester]
    #26708923 - 05/31/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

well, I am happy not to have one, and not to worry about that.

on the other hand I have several interests that I am very committed to, and a few that are wonderfully distracting as well. Seldom "bored".


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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Apples in Mono]
    #26709081 - 05/31/20 12:46 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Apples in Mono said:
It's definitely tough to pin down a solid definition of "self" or a criteria for "personhood", and to the extent we can, there's plenty of disagreement. But whatever it is you consider a person to be, once you've defined one, I think you've objectified them and can potentially utilize them. And I think that can be a wonderful thing




Utility and practicality have their own benefits but I don’t think it answers what a person is.  For example if I define a person as more or less responsible for how they are then that will influence how I perceive them and hold them accountable in some arbitrary situation.  What type of judgements that are or aren’t made may depend on the understanding of what constitutes a person.  Imo the models that separate consciousness and selfhood into several levels where the ego is the moderator that receives input from various influences is attractive.  What these outside factors are don’t seem to be all that understood and so people tend to determine them themselves understandably.

Nevertheless there are environmental factors, genetic, conditioned etc. I would also add a immaterial factor that influences a person and n terms of how the personality is and what it gravitates towards etc.  Some don’t make room for this at all.  Nature vs. nurture.  Nature in this case can go pretty deep if it’s not waved away.  I don’t see any reason not to use the word spiritual in terms of the factor that contributes to our nature to some extent.

Personally I consider this spiritual factor to be something separate from “me” yet it is something also that contributes to what I am like.  Similar to a relationship.

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #26709084 - 05/31/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
I didn't mean to imply that it even was something that should be searched for, or even known when found, just the belief that one has a purpose at all. 

So in this way it doesn't need to weigh on one at all, unless you force it to, which I would agree isn't helpful and would become baggage.

So to answer your question, no I haven't found it, and no I am not looking :wink:




So the belief is only for your own peace of mind? I think that's true of most beliefs but few are aware that this is the reason they believe them in the first place.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Kickle]
    #26709101 - 05/31/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
So the belief is only for your own peace of mind?




I would find peace of mind whether I believed I had a purpose here or not, so no. 

Were I an atheist who believed in no god and no purpose here whatsoever and that I was just going to cease to exist upon death, I wouldn't have anything to fear or stop me from having peace of mind. 

The fact that I believe what I do doesn't come from any 'need' to have peace of mind, or fear of any sort.

Quote:

Kickle said:
I think that's true of most beliefs but few are aware that this is the reason they believe them in the first place.




I would agree you're probably right about that, but personally it is not the case for me, I prefer to analyze what I choose to believe and decide whether it makes sense to me or not. 


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester]
    #26709448 - 05/31/20 03:56 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
…  I prefer to analyze what I choose to believe and decide whether it makes sense to me or not. 




does this mean you make your choice (gut feeling? intuition? habit?)
then believe the thing you chose (commit to the idea?)
then analyze if it makes sense?


if so then you are like most people:

we are easily hooked by our habits
we assume that we are on track and fair
then reflect, if something calls us back.

(like this conversation)


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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26709474 - 05/31/20 04:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
does this mean you make your choice (gut feeling? intuition? habit?)
then believe the thing you chose (commit to the idea?)
then analyze if it makes sense?


if so then you are like most people:

we are easily hooked by our habits
we assume that we are on track and fair
then reflect, if something calls us back.

(like this conversation)




I would say that's accurate, yes.

Although I question how often a lot of the people I come across in day to day life listen to their intuition/gut feeling about anything.  Most of them seem to base their decisions mostly on what others around them are doing/talking about. 
Or maybe they're just skipping the last step, the reflection one?
I'm not sure, what do you think accounts for a certain area being of such a similar mindset to one-another? 
(almost every house I drive by has a giant Trump sign, for example)


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester]
    #26709650 - 05/31/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
does this mean you make your choice (gut feeling? intuition? habit?)
then believe the thing you chose (commit to the idea?)
then analyze if it makes sense?


if so then you are like most people:

we are easily hooked by our habits
we assume that we are on track and fair
then reflect, if something calls us back.

(like this conversation)




I would say that's accurate, yes.

Although I question how often a lot of the people I come across in day to day life listen to their intuition/gut feeling about anything.  Most of them seem to base their decisions mostly on what others around them are doing/talking about. 
Or maybe they're just skipping the last step, the reflection one?
I'm not sure, what do you think accounts for a certain area being of such a similar mindset to one-another? 
(almost every house I drive by has a giant Trump sign, for example)




I think the first part and second part are engaged strongly
"they are hooked by their habits
they assume that they are on track and fair"

but nothing calls them back to review.

perhaps they acquired the bad habit to block all calls that are "untrumpish" and all informational feeds that are not foxnews.

the most significant aspect of intelligence IMO is the ability to be interrupted and resume.
they lost this important feature of intelligence, but they all still have some more decent habits which are just not being elicited during fox news and trumpidity.

I think reawakening their intelligence will be fun, just hope it does not require loss of lives.


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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26709944 - 05/31/20 08:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

Apples in Mono said:
It's definitely tough to pin down a solid definition of "self" or a criteria for "personhood", and to the extent we can, there's plenty of disagreement. But whatever it is you consider a person to be, once you've defined one, I think you've objectified them and can potentially utilize them. And I think that can be a wonderful thing




Utility and practicality have their own benefits but I don’t think it answers what a person is.  For example if I define a person as more or less responsible for how they are then that will influence how I perceive them and hold them accountable in some arbitrary situation.  What type of judgements that are or aren’t made may depend on the understanding of what constitutes a person.  Imo the models that separate consciousness and selfhood into several levels where the ego is the moderator that receives input from various influences is attractive.  What these outside factors are don’t seem to be all that understood and so people tend to determine them themselves understandably.

Nevertheless there are environmental factors, genetic, conditioned etc. I would also add a immaterial factor that influences a person and n terms of how the personality is and what it gravitates towards etc.  Some don’t make room for this at all.  Nature vs. nurture.  Nature in this case can go pretty deep if it’s not waved away.  I don’t see any reason not to use the word spiritual in terms of the factor that contributes to our nature to some extent.

Personally I consider this spiritual factor to be something separate from “me” yet it is something also that contributes to what I am like.  Similar to a relationship.




I don't think utility answers the question of what a person is either, I just think that, regardless of the answer, we imbue ourselves and others with purpose all the time, in all different sorts of ways, sometimes profound, sometimes rather mundane, sometimes beautiful, and other times horrific.

I also agree that our ideas of what it means to be a person are likely to have an effect on the way we judge others. Personally, I tend to think of a person as, fundamentally, a constantly unfolding process(at least until the moment of death), whether entirely material or not, and I don't believe the individual to be the author or designer of that process. I do think a person makes decisions but that, ultimately, they don't make a decision to make a decision- they just make it, as a necessary product of the thoughts and impulses they're subject to in any given moment, which is their nature.

I see nothing wrong with reasonably holding people responsible for their decisions, but only as a matter of practicality, not as an effort to seek justice for it's own sake, or as an act of vengeance. A person's past behavior can tell us a lot about how they're likely to behave in the future, so locking up a sadistic serial killer is a sensible thing to do if you'd like to prevent that sort of thing in the future, and I would. I think empathy and reason are enough for a solid moral foundation, without the need for any spiritual considerations or recognition of a libertarian free-will. And even empathy doesn't seem to be required for some; reason alone seems to lead plenty of psychopaths to appreciate the personal utility of symbiotic social interaction

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Apples in Mono]
    #26711068 - 06/01/20 09:45 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

In the context of social interaction there’s no need to add any spiritual sauce and empathy and reason are good enough.  Good points there I agree.  Idk why I got on it in the first place and it’s more of a personal matter than a required social one.  I have thoughts on it but would likely go off the tracks.

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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester]
    #26711932 - 06/01/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
I would agree you're probably right about that, but personally it is not the case for me, I prefer to analyze what I choose to believe and decide whether it makes sense to me or not. 




So is this a 1 time deal or are you constantly assessing?

I ask primarily because of this from your earlier post:

Quote:

Forrester said:
I didn't mean to imply that it even was something that should be searched for, or even known when found, just the belief that one has a purpose at all.





what assessment goes into a belief that doesn't need to be searched for nor known? It sounds like it doesn't rely on thought which seems like it probably goes on emotion? So assessing how one feels?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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