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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester]
    #26708491 - 05/31/20 05:27 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
I don't consider having a reason to be here carrying baggage, but to each their own.



did you find your purpose?
or ru still looking?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Apples in Mono] * 1
    #26708495 - 05/31/20 05:30 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Apples in Mono said:
Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
people don't have purpose, we are people, we live, we have the right to live without justifying ourselves.

tools have purpose,
products have purpose.

that's what I mean.



Aren't we tools of evolution..?

Tools of the way(Tao)

Tools of God?




I hope we aren't tools of a god. It does seem to be a possibility, but fortunately, I see no reason to to be convinced of it.

However, I don't think it makes sense to call us tools of evolution- not in anything but a loose, metaphorical sense. But I think the sort of tool we've been speaking of is something utilized with intent. And I don't think evolution has intentions



evolution is not an entity. it does not use anything. (do not replace the concept god with the word 'evolution')
scientist use many tools - evolution is a good working idea about the history of life.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26708517 - 05/31/20 05:54 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
did you find your purpose?
or ru still looking?




I didn't mean to imply that it even was something that should be searched for, or even known when found, just the belief that one has a purpose at all. 

So in this way it doesn't need to weigh on one at all, unless you force it to, which I would agree isn't helpful and would become baggage.

So to answer your question, no I haven't found it, and no I am not looking :wink:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester]
    #26708923 - 05/31/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

well, I am happy not to have one, and not to worry about that.

on the other hand I have several interests that I am very committed to, and a few that are wonderfully distracting as well. Seldom "bored".


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Apples in Mono]
    #26709081 - 05/31/20 12:46 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Apples in Mono said:
It's definitely tough to pin down a solid definition of "self" or a criteria for "personhood", and to the extent we can, there's plenty of disagreement. But whatever it is you consider a person to be, once you've defined one, I think you've objectified them and can potentially utilize them. And I think that can be a wonderful thing




Utility and practicality have their own benefits but I don’t think it answers what a person is.  For example if I define a person as more or less responsible for how they are then that will influence how I perceive them and hold them accountable in some arbitrary situation.  What type of judgements that are or aren’t made may depend on the understanding of what constitutes a person.  Imo the models that separate consciousness and selfhood into several levels where the ego is the moderator that receives input from various influences is attractive.  What these outside factors are don’t seem to be all that understood and so people tend to determine them themselves understandably.

Nevertheless there are environmental factors, genetic, conditioned etc. I would also add a immaterial factor that influences a person and n terms of how the personality is and what it gravitates towards etc.  Some don’t make room for this at all.  Nature vs. nurture.  Nature in this case can go pretty deep if it’s not waved away.  I don’t see any reason not to use the word spiritual in terms of the factor that contributes to our nature to some extent.

Personally I consider this spiritual factor to be something separate from “me” yet it is something also that contributes to what I am like.  Similar to a relationship.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #26709084 - 05/31/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
I didn't mean to imply that it even was something that should be searched for, or even known when found, just the belief that one has a purpose at all. 

So in this way it doesn't need to weigh on one at all, unless you force it to, which I would agree isn't helpful and would become baggage.

So to answer your question, no I haven't found it, and no I am not looking :wink:




So the belief is only for your own peace of mind? I think that's true of most beliefs but few are aware that this is the reason they believe them in the first place.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Kickle]
    #26709101 - 05/31/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
So the belief is only for your own peace of mind?




I would find peace of mind whether I believed I had a purpose here or not, so no. 

Were I an atheist who believed in no god and no purpose here whatsoever and that I was just going to cease to exist upon death, I wouldn't have anything to fear or stop me from having peace of mind. 

The fact that I believe what I do doesn't come from any 'need' to have peace of mind, or fear of any sort.

Quote:

Kickle said:
I think that's true of most beliefs but few are aware that this is the reason they believe them in the first place.




I would agree you're probably right about that, but personally it is not the case for me, I prefer to analyze what I choose to believe and decide whether it makes sense to me or not. 


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester]
    #26709448 - 05/31/20 03:56 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
…  I prefer to analyze what I choose to believe and decide whether it makes sense to me or not. 




does this mean you make your choice (gut feeling? intuition? habit?)
then believe the thing you chose (commit to the idea?)
then analyze if it makes sense?


if so then you are like most people:

we are easily hooked by our habits
we assume that we are on track and fair
then reflect, if something calls us back.

(like this conversation)


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26709474 - 05/31/20 04:13 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
does this mean you make your choice (gut feeling? intuition? habit?)
then believe the thing you chose (commit to the idea?)
then analyze if it makes sense?


if so then you are like most people:

we are easily hooked by our habits
we assume that we are on track and fair
then reflect, if something calls us back.

(like this conversation)




I would say that's accurate, yes.

Although I question how often a lot of the people I come across in day to day life listen to their intuition/gut feeling about anything.  Most of them seem to base their decisions mostly on what others around them are doing/talking about. 
Or maybe they're just skipping the last step, the reflection one?
I'm not sure, what do you think accounts for a certain area being of such a similar mindset to one-another? 
(almost every house I drive by has a giant Trump sign, for example)


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester]
    #26709650 - 05/31/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
does this mean you make your choice (gut feeling? intuition? habit?)
then believe the thing you chose (commit to the idea?)
then analyze if it makes sense?


if so then you are like most people:

we are easily hooked by our habits
we assume that we are on track and fair
then reflect, if something calls us back.

(like this conversation)




I would say that's accurate, yes.

Although I question how often a lot of the people I come across in day to day life listen to their intuition/gut feeling about anything.  Most of them seem to base their decisions mostly on what others around them are doing/talking about. 
Or maybe they're just skipping the last step, the reflection one?
I'm not sure, what do you think accounts for a certain area being of such a similar mindset to one-another? 
(almost every house I drive by has a giant Trump sign, for example)




I think the first part and second part are engaged strongly
"they are hooked by their habits
they assume that they are on track and fair"

but nothing calls them back to review.

perhaps they acquired the bad habit to block all calls that are "untrumpish" and all informational feeds that are not foxnews.

the most significant aspect of intelligence IMO is the ability to be interrupted and resume.
they lost this important feature of intelligence, but they all still have some more decent habits which are just not being elicited during fox news and trumpidity.

I think reawakening their intelligence will be fun, just hope it does not require loss of lives.


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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Registered: 09/21/17
Posts: 3,240
Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26709944 - 05/31/20 08:03 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

Apples in Mono said:
It's definitely tough to pin down a solid definition of "self" or a criteria for "personhood", and to the extent we can, there's plenty of disagreement. But whatever it is you consider a person to be, once you've defined one, I think you've objectified them and can potentially utilize them. And I think that can be a wonderful thing




Utility and practicality have their own benefits but I don’t think it answers what a person is.  For example if I define a person as more or less responsible for how they are then that will influence how I perceive them and hold them accountable in some arbitrary situation.  What type of judgements that are or aren’t made may depend on the understanding of what constitutes a person.  Imo the models that separate consciousness and selfhood into several levels where the ego is the moderator that receives input from various influences is attractive.  What these outside factors are don’t seem to be all that understood and so people tend to determine them themselves understandably.

Nevertheless there are environmental factors, genetic, conditioned etc. I would also add a immaterial factor that influences a person and n terms of how the personality is and what it gravitates towards etc.  Some don’t make room for this at all.  Nature vs. nurture.  Nature in this case can go pretty deep if it’s not waved away.  I don’t see any reason not to use the word spiritual in terms of the factor that contributes to our nature to some extent.

Personally I consider this spiritual factor to be something separate from “me” yet it is something also that contributes to what I am like.  Similar to a relationship.




I don't think utility answers the question of what a person is either, I just think that, regardless of the answer, we imbue ourselves and others with purpose all the time, in all different sorts of ways, sometimes profound, sometimes rather mundane, sometimes beautiful, and other times horrific.

I also agree that our ideas of what it means to be a person are likely to have an effect on the way we judge others. Personally, I tend to think of a person as, fundamentally, a constantly unfolding process(at least until the moment of death), whether entirely material or not, and I don't believe the individual to be the author or designer of that process. I do think a person makes decisions but that, ultimately, they don't make a decision to make a decision- they just make it, as a necessary product of the thoughts and impulses they're subject to in any given moment, which is their nature.

I see nothing wrong with reasonably holding people responsible for their decisions, but only as a matter of practicality, not as an effort to seek justice for it's own sake, or as an act of vengeance. A person's past behavior can tell us a lot about how they're likely to behave in the future, so locking up a sadistic serial killer is a sensible thing to do if you'd like to prevent that sort of thing in the future, and I would. I think empathy and reason are enough for a solid moral foundation, without the need for any spiritual considerations or recognition of a libertarian free-will. And even empathy doesn't seem to be required for some; reason alone seems to lead plenty of psychopaths to appreciate the personal utility of symbiotic social interaction


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Apples in Mono]
    #26711068 - 06/01/20 09:45 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

In the context of social interaction there’s no need to add any spiritual sauce and empathy and reason are good enough.  Good points there I agree.  Idk why I got on it in the first place and it’s more of a personal matter than a required social one.  I have thoughts on it but would likely go off the tracks.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Forrester]
    #26711932 - 06/01/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
I would agree you're probably right about that, but personally it is not the case for me, I prefer to analyze what I choose to believe and decide whether it makes sense to me or not. 




So is this a 1 time deal or are you constantly assessing?

I ask primarily because of this from your earlier post:

Quote:

Forrester said:
I didn't mean to imply that it even was something that should be searched for, or even known when found, just the belief that one has a purpose at all.





what assessment goes into a belief that doesn't need to be searched for nor known? It sounds like it doesn't rely on thought which seems like it probably goes on emotion? So assessing how one feels?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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