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OfflineLion
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The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge * 1
    #26695868 - 05/25/20 10:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

There's a saying that every politician wants people to believe he gave birth to and raised himself, in a log cabin that he himself built.

I think that's an American phrase and one of the things behind it is a tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge, or value gained by direct experience, trial and error, versus knowledge given, guided and honed by a mentor or authority. Maybe the individualistic U.S. has more of this tension than other countries that value custom, ritual, authority, the family unit and the community unit more.

I often reflect on the fact that everything has more or less been done - "There is no new thing under the Sun" as it's put in the Bible. In most cases, whatever thing you're working on - unless you're really on the cutting edge of complex technology - other, more intelligent people - or more intellectually organized, or more uninhibited, or more intuitive, or more or less ethical people, or whatever the case might be - have already spent a lot of time working on it and accumulating knowledge.

If your thing is to do amazing wood work, or program video games, or cultivate excellent organic crops, or whatever it is, at some point it becomes really foolish not to look at and study what others have done before.

I feel some kind of visceral dislike, not of receiving knowledge - I love to learn - but of making the effort to get better at something I want to be good at by using lessons or instructions that someone has put together. My mind just recoils at the idea of taking specific practices and techniques and working on them in a methodical way. It just wants to get into the groove and learn by imaging how it all might be done. That can lead to some great, flowing experiences, but it can also leave you frustrated if you spend hours and hours practicing something you like and objectively do many parts of it poorly, or in an unnecessarily inefficient or difficult way.

Ideally there has to be some mix of discovery, exploration, free form interaction, and regularity, structure, and incrementally received knowledge. Depending on who you are and what you're involved with, the balance between those two approaches can probably shift in one direction or the other for long periods.

This might also have a lot to do with different personality types, but I think it also goes deeper to something cultural or innate.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Lion]
    #26696258 - 05/26/20 05:16 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

cultural or personal idiosyncrasies, traumas, habits, and maybe excuses to explain why you did or did not learn something?

in the past knowledge was earned and learned by apprenticeship.
now it is disrespected in general (especially by the big fake apprentice in charge and by his followers), and locked down as data and for-pay courseware, though you may be lucky to get apprenticeship too.

if there is tension, it's probably trauma, or you are in the throes of self teaching from unlocked sources.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisibleremake
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Registered: 01/05/16
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Loc: South Africa Flag
Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Lion]
    #26696340 - 05/26/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Pretty interesting podcast snip about creativity, I think this might be somewhat interesting to you. Not sure if it's 100% related to your questions, but yeah.


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Offlinelostintimenspc
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Registered: 03/13/20
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: remake] * 1
    #26697219 - 05/26/20 02:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

We're in a state of intense stagnation because the trauma of history has built up in the collective unconscious, especially in white people.

What we actually need is a mass desertion of the way things stand, except for the authority of government, and we need Buddhas to process the trauma of history.

I think in the end, if humanity is to survive, we all need to be Buddhas. That is the story of religion - trying to make that happen.

Well it has to. We can't have half-assed masses roaming a planet that is clearly part of a divine purpose.


--------------------
LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life'

Your life, your call.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: lostintimenspc]
    #26697592 - 05/26/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

we have lost the tension


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26698363 - 05/27/20 12:57 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The mind that is worthy is worthy of anything relating to anything that is currently going on.. in space of perception(space) (da'at)

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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26698367 - 05/27/20 01:00 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The features of perception is true.. boundaries only exist to define things, knowledge and the occupying space of things.. space taken

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Invisiblechronotope999
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: lostintimenspc]
    #26698411 - 05/27/20 01:59 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

There's a lot to this.

One of the issues we have is that our news cycle/media is less likely to broadcast viewpoints that are subtly insightful, and more likely to broadcast outrage.

Problem is, it becomes a feedback loop.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26698579 - 05/27/20 04:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
The mind that is worthy is worthy of anything relating to anything that is currently going on.. in space of perception(space) (da'at)



how can any mind be more worthy than any other mind?
that just seems dumb.
or is dumb unworthy?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Lion]
    #26698631 - 05/27/20 05:41 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

All knowledge is completely dependent upon the quality of the question being asked.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26700458 - 05/27/20 09:14 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

How can a mind be more worthy?

The mind that chooses the correct path.. and even then some minds are prone to be better at different things.. different subjects different skills..

What would the world look like if we were all the same?

More worthy? Well it depends in what area..

In the relational equal basis we all have capacity for special skills.. able to attain enlightenment and the ability to tell the truth..

Every person has a slightly different struggle than anyone else though..

Always good to hear from you redgreenvines!

:blush:

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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #26700724 - 05/28/20 12:59 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Worthiness is a mere matter of opinion. I think capability is what matters

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Apples in Mono] * 1
    #26701064 - 05/28/20 06:53 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

capability is fine, but if you share what you are capable of, then what you do is valuable to others.

maybe worthiness is about not holding back what is worth sharing.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26701143 - 05/28/20 07:38 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

But others may not value our capabilities. Even if they do, and therefore deem them worthy, I think that's separate from whether or not they've truly benefitted from them. I think I'd prefer believing that i provided a truly profound benefit to the experiences of others, yet remain unappreciated, than to be found worthy without believing I'd ever actually  enriched their experiences.

That's not to say it isn't awesome to feel valued, but I'd trade it in a second for the capability to truly earn it


Edited by Apples in Mono (05/28/20 07:54 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Apples in Mono] * 1
    #26701321 - 05/28/20 09:28 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

right like a jewel in the rough,
worthy and of unseen benefit to many, yet uncaring of acceptance and fame


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Lion]
    #26702253 - 05/28/20 05:05 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
There's a saying that every politician wants people to believe he gave birth to and raised himself, in a log cabin that he himself built.

I think that's an American phrase and one of the things behind it is a tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge, or value gained by direct experience, trial and error, versus knowledge given, guided and honed by a mentor or authority. Maybe the individualistic U.S. has more of this tension than other countries that value custom, ritual, authority, the family unit and the community unit more.

I often reflect on the fact that everything has more or less been done - "There is no new thing under the Sun" as it's put in the Bible. In most cases, whatever thing you're working on - unless you're really on the cutting edge of complex technology - other, more intelligent people - or more intellectually organized, or more uninhibited, or more intuitive, or more or less ethical people, or whatever the case might be - have already spent a lot of time working on it and accumulating knowledge.

If your thing is to do amazing wood work, or program video games, or cultivate excellent organic crops, or whatever it is, at some point it becomes really foolish not to look at and study what others have done before.

I feel some kind of visceral dislike, not of receiving knowledge - I love to learn - but of making the effort to get better at something I want to be good at by using lessons or instructions that someone has put together. My mind just recoils at the idea of taking specific practices and techniques and working on them in a methodical way. It just wants to get into the groove and learn by imaging how it all might be done. That can lead to some great, flowing experiences, but it can also leave you frustrated if you spend hours and hours practicing something you like and objectively do many parts of it poorly, or in an unnecessarily inefficient or difficult way.

Ideally there has to be some mix of discovery, exploration, free form interaction, and regularity, structure, and incrementally received knowledge. Depending on who you are and what you're involved with, the balance between those two approaches can probably shift in one direction or the other for long periods.

This might also have a lot to do with different personality types, but I think it also goes deeper to something cultural or innate.




I see a huge tie here to leadership.

I think leaders typically get the direction they want to move in through direct knowledge as opposed to from another's knowledge. But when moving in their desired direction, will employ anything and everything that enables progress towards that end. It doesn't matter who's idea it is as long as it feeds towards the end goal. Discernment here is necessary to ensure it does in fact feed towards the end goal.

That's how I see effective leaders navigate this push and pull. By keeping a constant focus on the end goal and achieving their egoic needs by witnessing movement towards that goal.

Less effective leaders have the vision but seem to lose focus of the end goal and get caught up in an egoic pull of each element along the way.

And sheep don't seem to have a vision at all but want to feel like they do by sharing in another's vision.

FWIW I consider myself somewhere between an ineffective leader and a sheep depending on what's happening. I don't have a strong vision for where I want the world to be so I have nowhere to lead it. And during those times when I do want to lead I can get stuck in the details pretty quickly.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Kickle]
    #26702312 - 05/28/20 05:37 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I would say we received that but did not really learn it.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26702333 - 05/28/20 05:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

do you mean leadership? that we receive that impetus rather than learn it?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Kickle]
    #26702411 - 05/28/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think everybody is a combination of a sheep, ineffective leader, and a focused leader.  We morph in and out of each category redefining terms.  Although some tend more towards one category or another.  It is also difficult to identify the point at which the sheep’s following becomes its own striving.  Is a sheep always a sheep or can it transform itself?  Questions like this are mind boggling.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The tension between "earned" and "received" knowledge [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26702474 - 05/28/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe? I think I look at a lifetime for my ultimate decision.

Like when history looks at the accomplishments and determines leadership that way. There are "leaders" or "rulers" that were garbage because IMO they were similar to myself. With no real direction to lead in and often dragged into the muck of day-to-day dealings. Then you have the Hitlers and the Ghandis who were really motivated by a distinct direction and goal and maintained that focus through a lot.

And I dunno if a sheep is ever otherwise? When I think about it I think of those folks who have a death and then decide to start a group to prevent it in the future. Like MADD (Mom's Against Drunk Driving) or something to that effect. Maybe they were always leaders or maybe those traumatic events are a catalyst that provides a focus that wasn't there prior. Dunno. Haven't met those folks in person to ask.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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