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Blue Helix
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Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate 1
#26695198 - 05/25/20 03:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've run across a new problem in a few pan cyan grows. It is the strangest thing too, and I want to hear from anyone else who has seen this issue. Everything in the LC to my substrate bags looks normal, although I'd say the blob size in the LC seemed to be unusually small (but dense anyway). Once the trays are laid, though, bright white blobs form in the substrate itself even while the casing colonized perfectly (this is one of those overlay monsters that came on the scene a few years back but I know how to treat it to prevent the overlay getting out of hand). Below I have a picture showing the blobs looking in from the side of the glass tray and underside. I also show the picture-perfect casing despite the overlay monster characteristics of this modified strain (the new Jamaicans still making rounds).
 
Normally, I would expect a massive flush in a few days because usually, the way the casing colonizes tells me everything I need to know about the pin set, but I've dealt with these blobs before from this print. And those blobs mean there will be no pins from these trays no matter how great the casing looks. What are these blobs? Is this mold? If it's mold, it's odd since it never seems to sporulate in another color. Also wouldn't mold outcompete the pan cyan mycelium early on rather than after the trays are laid?
Lastly, I want to emphasize that this LC came from a second-generation agar transfer that looked clean. In fact there was no indication whatsoever of a problem with the agar at the point of transfer from the first or second plate. I kept the second plate in the refrigerator for about a month, though, and it did start to look funny. It developed a very minor buff color (almost hard to see) and the mycelium projection seemed squashed all the sudden rather than fluffy. But if you can't see mold running with mycelium in the first couple weeks on agar, what good is agar in this case? Agar basically revealed nothing then. I'd need to know about mold when the agar plate is ready to use, not a month or two later.
Edited by Blue Helix (05/25/20 03:26 PM)
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Asura
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#26695225 - 05/25/20 03:36 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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For the record, I am experiencing this, too and Blue Helix and I have been discussing it for awhile. Definitely want to know if others are seeing this.
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A.k.a
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura]
#26695296 - 05/25/20 04:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I wonder if it’s related to the weird stones you see on plates with these. Pan jam is the only one I’ve run so far so idk how common these are.

I’m about to spawn a jar cloned from one tomorrow. The myc looks good so we’ll see.
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LAGM2020     
Edited by A.k.a (05/25/20 04:25 PM)
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: A.k.a]
#26695349 - 05/25/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don’t have a lot of pan cyan experience but last grow I did had those blobs . I had a great yield 40 grams dry - from two 12” trays .
The blobs didn’t appear until I cased with manure and straw @50/50
One of the trays had a lot of mycelium that ate the casing layer on one side - I thought it would over lay - I hit it with my fan when I saw this and didn’t have an issue . My flush was pretty filled out .
My new one from the same agar/lc has them too - I haven’t noticed any I’ll effects though .
Im gonna lay casing tomorrow - I’ll post some pics when I do .
Sorry I don’t have much else to add beyond that -
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Hans Wermhat
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: A.k.a]
#26695388 - 05/25/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Here's a picture of a grow a few months ago from the side (didn't take any pictures of the bottom of the tray), are these the same blobs you're describing or is this just typical growth?
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Asura
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Hans Wermhat]
#26695422 - 05/25/20 05:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I can't tell from the pic, Hans. I will say these blobs are not wispy at all. They look like rubber. And they stand out compared to the wispy growth. They are whiter.
I have a tray in the FC now that has them. I had a small spot of overlay(?) in one of the corners and I scraped it for science. It turned dark blue immediately. Honestly, I don't remember overlay ever bruising...could be my poor memory though.
Also, I had several clusters of aborts in that tray that died off and the surrounding area turned dark blue as well.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Hans Wermhat]
#26695605 - 05/25/20 07:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'll just chime in that I agree with Asura on this; they do not look whispy at all.
I must admit that all pan cyan grows I've ever done were like clockwork. I can pretty much predict pinning within 48 hours of all of them because it's always almost the exact same few days. But these didn't pin for me in a timely fashion. I'm not one to usually wait around two weeks for pinning on Pan Cyans since the whole beauty of them is they are fast-growing, consistent, and potent (unlike cubes which are slower and have wildly differing time frames for development). I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the pans with the blobs did pin say 14 days later than the lay if the conditions are kept perfect, then I wouldn't even know since I would never expect any tray to pin that late and would toss it. The first expanding pins are always day 5 to 7 (rarely day 8) after the casing lay in all other trays I've made - if they are to pin at all (this is 24 to 48 hours after the knotting is observed). Also in other trays where I saw strange masses in the substrate that were colored, pinning didn't happen there either. But these are white and harder mycelium, much like what one might expect if a pin tried to push out against the sides of the tray but aborted.
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26695635 - 05/25/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I tried to snap a picture of my new trays right now , couldn’t get a good one
These white spots are bright white - rubbery and look very simialr to Galindo mycelium when it starts forming truffles - before they turn brown .
I defiantly had these on my last grow - one of the trays had a spot like this that was 4 inches across . I forgot I still had one of the trays left / below is a picture .
I moved it to my shed - it had a full , nice pin set - got trich half way through the second flush .
Edited by thenagual (05/25/20 07:55 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695658 - 05/25/20 08:02 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes, that looks about like them, thenagual. Do you happen to recall the timeframe from laying the casing to the first pins developing? Maybe these blobs are more or less a red herring here, and maybe these large wastes of metabolic energy only slow way down the grows, not prevent pinning altogether. That might be why I didn't see pins - simply didn't wait long enough.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695684 - 05/25/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Also mine does eventually turn a very light brownish color too. Again it looks to me like the mycelium literally doesn't know where the pinning surface is, so it's pushing energy into fruiting body-like tissue development in the substrate itself. But if that's it, that's weird too since I don't remember seeing this before. I guess if there were such blobs in trays I've done before, I might not even notice since I'm looking at the top surface, not through the glass on the underside. And if I saw it on the sides, I would assume just pin development that aborted, which happens with clear 13x9" trays as I use.
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26695735 - 05/25/20 08:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said: Yes, that looks about like them, thenagual. Do you happen to recall the timeframe from laying the casing to the first pins developing? Maybe these blobs are more or less a red herring here, and maybe these large wastes of metabolic energy only slow way down the grows, not prevent pinning altogether. That might be why I didn't see pins - simply didn't wait long enough.
Pins appeared around 48 hours of being put into the tent ;
So - I laid my sub and grains - it fully colonized in 3 days
Then I cased it and put it immediately into fruiting .
I misted pretty well for 1.5 days and just let my tent run like normal .
one tray had mycelium come up over 20%of the casing on one side ,I thought they were fucked - so I opened the tent and stuck a fan in front of it for 5 mins on setting 1.
pins came up The next morning so I I kept up the fan thing- this was roughly 48 hours .
Both trays ended up filling out completly - I got 20 grams dry from each tray .
I think the blobs might be a way of the mycelium preserving itself? or metabolic energy waste like you said?
My trays are 12x9 I think - I didn’t measure the sides - I’m doing a 2.2 inch sub depth .
What kinda yields are you pulling off theses trays ?
I think I got really close to a max yield but have no idea , From lack of experience
I don’t know if it’s strain characteristics -I’m wondering if tweaking some things I could get some fatter bodies - mine were real tall and skinny but tons of them - it took me forever to harvest .
Edited by thenagual (05/25/20 08:49 PM)
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Asura
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695775 - 05/25/20 09:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I use the 13x9 trays and I think my yields are less but I expect a good harvest to be 28-32ozooops...grams dry. They usually come in that range like clockwork for me.
The only thing I can add is that I am also seeing pretty large amounts of exudate on the surface of these trays. Some of it is crystal clear and some amber. I've removed it with a syringe and most of it is water-like in texture, but some if it is almost like jello or really soft agar.
Edited by Asura (05/25/20 09:27 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695784 - 05/25/20 09:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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For the first flush, a successful pan cyan run is about 40% biological efficiency (BE). My trays have about 2.5 pounds of substrate per tray. That means I'd expect 35% * 2.5 pounds of fresh and 1/10th that about dry. So I get about 2.5*.35*454/10 or 40g cracker-dry grams on a typical successful first flush in a 13'x9' pans about 1.7" deep with pan cyans (for drying I use a force-feed fan and calcium chloride desiccant in a closed trash can to make sure I get all the water). Through subsequent flushes I have achieved 60% BE with pan cyans (and a bit more with pan cambo), so 20g more for a grand total of 60g dried per tray, but that extra 20% BE is not trivial. You really need to pull 4 flushes or so to make that happen, which means you can't be wasting metabolic energy on weird stuff like contamination or screwed up genetics (like I suspect here).
This is my last truly successful grow of the Jamacian pan cyans with the overlay issue. The first flush was about 40% BE if I recall, so 40g dry per tray. My total was maybe 45% BE, though, since the overlay issue still costs yield, even if I can somewhat control it. My entire point of growing these again is to make sure my method of dealing with the overlay works in more than a case study of one run. If it does, I'd let the forums know.
 
Edited by Blue Helix (05/25/20 09:24 PM)
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura]
#26695786 - 05/25/20 09:21 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: I use the 13x9 trays and I think my yields are less but I expect a good harvest to be 28-32oz dry. They usually come in that range like clockwork for me.
The only thing I can add is that I am also seeing pretty large amounts of exudate on the surface of these trays. Some of it is crystal clear and some amber. I've removed it with a syringe and most of it is water-like in texture, but some if it is almost like jello or really soft agar.
I was wondering what that was - I didn’t have any on my pans but my cubensis have been getting that weird jelly layer - I think its because the water where I moved to is much harder.
If I don’t clean my humidifier every week it gets bad to the point where I’m getting terrible yields and fruiting gets delayed .
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura]
#26695789 - 05/25/20 09:22 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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What is your per-tray dry harvest, Asura? Surely it's not 32 oz dry (that'd be 2 pounds dry)! Even if that is wet, it is higher than what I get in those tiny 13"x9" trays. I get about half that wet per tray for the first flush.
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26695798 - 05/25/20 09:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said: For the first flush, a successful pan cyan run is about 40% biological efficiency (BE). My trays have about 2.5 pounds of substrate per tray. That means I'd expect 35% * 2.5 pounds of fresh and 1/10th that about dry. So I get about 2.5*.35*454/10 or 40g cracker-dry grams on a typical successful first flush in a 13'x9' pans about 1.7" deep with pan cyans (for drying I use a force-feed fan and calcium chloride desiccant in a closed trash can to make sure I get all the water). Through subsequent flushes I have achieved 60% BE with pan cyans (and a bit more with pan cambo), so 20g more for a grand total of 60g dried per tray, but that extra 20% BE is not trivial. You really need to pull 4 flushes or so to make that happen, which means you can't be wasting metabolic energy on weird stuff like contamination or screwed up genetics (like I suspect here).
This is my last truly successful grow of the Jamacian pan cyans with the overlay issue. The first flush was about 40% BE if I recall, so 40g dry. My total was maybe 45% BE, though, since the overlay issue still costs yield, even if I can somewhat control it. My entire point of growing these again is to make sure my method of dealing with the overlay works in more than a case study of one run. If it does, I'd let the forums know.
  
Damn! Blue helix - I got a lot to learn - I need to follow some more of your threads ! Haha
I still need to get my Jamaican off the ground - I had Jamaican and Texas cyans going but they never made it past agar due to me moving and everything contaminating in storage locker .
I think I got the Jamaican from asura - maybe the Texas I can’t remember which - either way thanks guys .
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695804 - 05/25/20 09:28 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Just checked my containers -I’m getting these from the 99C store - theyre
12x8- need to weigh my sub next time so I can get a percentage on yield - still need to eat some of these to, haven’t yet.
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Asura
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695805 - 05/25/20 09:29 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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LOL grams! Not oz. That would be a sight to see.
thenagual, I have really hard water as well, but I run it all through a carbon filter...and I've been OCD about changing out all the water every 4-5 days now.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695811 - 05/25/20 09:32 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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If you search, you can see Asura is kicking out some incredible flushes too! When people ask me about how my flushes are so dense, it's attention to details. Everything is pretty tightly controlled. Take the substrate evenness: that's a rolling pin for me. And I spend quite a bit of time to make sure my casing is even too (using a rolling pin with no applied pressure to make sure it's even). The casing consistency and pH are not left to guess either. In other words, little things make a huge difference, but dealing with kind of strange genetics can really screw up yield no matter how much detailing you apply. You have to have reasonable genetics first, which is all I used to see. Lately, I've been seeing some weird stuff, and so has Asura.
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura]
#26695819 - 05/25/20 09:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: LOL grams! Not oz. That would be a sight to see.
thenagual, I have really hard water as well, but I run it all through a carbon filter...and I've been OCD about changing out all the water every 4-5 days now.
I thought about using a carbon filter . I’ve just been disassembling everything and soaking everything (minus humidifier unit ) it in bleach water followed by a vinegar then hot water flush .
I want to ditch my humidifier soon and get a disc fogger , I still need to research though and find out how small I can go for just a 4 tier tent. I’ll eventually be getting another tent , no space for now . I’ve already taken up my closet in my bedroom - a walk in closet , and have overflow of supplies in my shed/backyard - wife’s not giving up anymore space ...
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura] 1
#26695826 - 05/25/20 09:38 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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LOL Yes, it would! It might even violate some fundamental laws of physics... lol 32g dried is about right for a good flush in a 13"x9" tray. I'd be happy enough with it at least. 40g dried is more like the best-case scenario. And that 60g per tray number was a freak show that I've only has happened for me a couple of times, mostly because trays tend to go south before the 4th or 5th flush for me.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura]
#26695828 - 05/25/20 09:38 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: LOL grams! Not oz. That would be a sight to see.
thenagual, I have really hard water as well, but I run it all through a carbon filter...and I've been OCD about changing out all the water every 4-5 days now.
LOL Yes, it would! It might even violate some fundamental laws of physics... lol 32g dried is about right for a good flush in a 13"x9" tray. I'd be happy enough with it at least. 40g dried is more like the best-case scenario. And that 60g per tray number was a freak show that I've only has happened for me a couple of times, mostly because trays tend to go south before the 4th or 5th flush for me.
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695832 - 05/25/20 09:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Oh yea.
Asuras grows and set ups are sick . I’ve seen them. I’ve added his bag method to my repertoire - I’m doing 7.5 ph on my casings 50/50 mix using lime .
I might try the fulvic acid in the future as per Jake -
Are you guys doing LC mostly for these pans ?
I just had to dump mine but I ran agar along side with lc and results were the same for my environment / strategy .
I’ve gotten kinda lazy though after starting LC - it’s like I’m afraid of my SAB now , like I knocked up bags last night while making a turkey sandwhich .
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695861 - 05/25/20 10:01 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
thenagual said: Oh yea.
Asuras grows and set ups are sick . I’ve seen them. I’ve added his bag method to my repertoire - I’m doing 7.5 ph on my casings 50/50 mix using lime .
I might try the fulvic acid in the future as per Jake -
Are you guys doing LC mostly for these pans ?
I just had to dump mine but I ran agar along side with lc and results were the same for my environment / strategy .
I’ve gotten kinda lazy though after starting LC - it’s like I’m afraid of my SAB now , like I knocked up bags last night while making a turkey sandwhich .
I'll let Asura speak for himself. As for me, I do LCs almost entirely. I only use agar really to prove to myself that a print is reasonably clean or test a suspicious LC out. The LCs are stored in vacutainers (little test tubes with a stopper) in cold storage, and then when I want to expand one out, I'll draw a ml or so from the test tube (through the silicon spetum). In other words, once things are going for me, I don't use agar or my SAB usually, except in special circumstances.
My substrate is contained in spawn bags. I got these huge ones that can hold 5 to 10 pounds of manure-based substrate pretty comfortably (although for the 10-pound bags you have to be careful to not overpack the pressure cooker I found out). Given a tray takes about 2.5lbs, a single bag can hold enough for 4 trays, although I'm splitting the substrate into two bags now just to more loosely load the cooker. I'll run cooking for about 4.5 hours. Before I cook those bags I put a piece of gaffers tape (cloth tape) on them as my injection point, and I inject through it with 140ml of LC through a 12-gauge needle, sealing the hole off with hot glue.
I think if you search my old posts, I detail my process several times. It hasn't really changed much over the years.
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Asura
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26695871 - 05/25/20 10:12 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm trying all kinds of different ways now. Spawning to sterile bulk, about to do a bunch of trays with pasteurized bulk...but I am going start back up on the LC again. I have a perfect Aussie culture started from an old print and I need to fruit it for clones.
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura]
#26695919 - 05/25/20 10:47 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Nice .
Yea I’m trying something else this round too .
I shredded my straw much finer - used a blender , and I left out the bleach and soap this round. Want to see if it’s worth it or not . I’m just getting into straw and haven’t had good luck except with the pans .
I had good results using your bag recipe - sterilizing it all mixed . I didn’t make it all the way through with pans , I did have some really good results with cubensis .
They were the large spawn bags , probably 6-7 full qts total in each .I just cut the tops of the bags off the bags and threw them in the fc, pulled around 1.75 oz dry of South Africans - real easy / no clean up and it felt like skipping a stage .
Blue helix ;
I’ll have to give that vacutainer LC storage a shot . I’ve had pretty good results storing cubensis lc at room temp for now , some of mine are 3 months old and going strong . I like the idea of having a master LC in cold storage for making more LC . LC to Lc has been nice but I seem to weaken my genetics by The third transfer.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26696022 - 05/26/20 12:40 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
thenagual said: Nice .
Yea I’m trying something else this round too .
I shredded my straw much finer - used a blender , and I left out the bleach and soap this round. Want to see if it’s worth it or not . I’m just getting into straw and haven’t had good luck except with the pans .
I had good results using your bag recipe - sterilizing it all mixed . I didn’t make it all the way through with pans , I did have some really good results with cubensis .
They were the large spawn bags , probably 6-7 full qts total in each .I just cut the tops of the bags off the bags and threw them in the fc, pulled around 1.75 oz dry of South Africans - real easy / no clean up and it felt like skipping a stage .
Blue helix ;
I’ll have to give that vacutainer LC storage a shot . I’ve had pretty good results storing cubensis lc at room temp for now , some of mine are 3 months old and going strong . I like the idea of having a master LC in cold storage for making more LC . LC to Lc has been nice but I seem to weaken my genetics by The third transfer.
The vacutainers you want are VACUTAINER BD 366430. The number at the end denotes 10ml, glass, without any chemical additives. They'll cost about $20 to $30 for 100 of them if expired (I paid $23 delivered I believe). Here's what I found on eBay, but I've found them cheaper than this before.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VACUTAINER-BD-366430-BLOOD-DRAW-TUBES-10ML-DRAW-16X100MM-EXP-2000-ITEM-G-304/202791710462
PS - I've noticed that eBay resellers are now selling them in less-than-100 quantities. I'm not sure that is even legal since the manufacturer (BD) doesn't produce them in quantities less than 100. In other words, they are not selling a product meant to be sold any more than if I started to sell individual M&Ms or something like that. Read the auction carefully.
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Puduwoke
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26696771 - 05/26/20 10:55 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to say Hi Blue it's very nice to see you around After reading through your grow logs so many times 
Ohh and also...
--------------------
Trade List LAGM2021
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Puduwoke]
#26697156 - 05/26/20 02:07 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Puduwoke said: Sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to say Hi Blue it's very nice to see you around After reading through your grow logs so many times 
Ohh and also...

Hi, Puduwoke. Hey, I'm always lurking, but I think I'll have a new grow log soon to share. I have some kind of pan cyan or maybe pan cambo--the fruiting body size makes it hard to know since these are very large by pan cyan standards--that jcm4620 has taken time to isolate prints of exceptional phenotypes and given to me. I'm at 48 hours after inoculation on standard MEA and already I can see germination! Well, obviously, something that explodes on agar that fast that isn't just molds perks my interest! I'm looking to try to set a grow yield record if I can since I haven't really dealt with many highly domesticated pan cyans, so keep your eye out for it!
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Hans Wermhat
Human


Registered: 06/10/19
Posts: 167
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26697234 - 05/26/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ok after seeing thenagual's picture of the bottom of a tray I've definitely seen that. On trays of Pan cyan alabama, which pinned within a normal timeframe after casing (4-5 days). I remember thinking it looked like tampanensis on rgs right before sclerotia forms. It didn't seem to have an effect at least in that case.
I also saw it on a few trays and cakes of Pan tropicalis, which was a total failure. Only had a couple pins after 2 weeks and they never developed. They were actually grown alongside the Pan cyan alabamas. Color of the blobs never changed for the 2 weeks or so that I had them. So I don't know if it's connected in anyway or just coincidence. I'll see if have it again.
Also you mentioned LC with smaller but dense blobs? I had some lc recently where the mycelium formed tiny dense nuggets that would sink very quickly after turning off the stirrer. The best way I can describe them is like grated parmesan cheese.
-------------------- Thank you for taking the time to read this message. Have a wonderful day.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Hans Wermhat]
#26697377 - 05/26/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hans Wermhat said: Ok after seeing thenagual's picture of the bottom of a tray I've definitely seen that. On trays of Pan cyan alabama, which pinned within a normal timeframe after casing (4-5 days). I remember thinking it looked like tampanensis on rgs right before sclerotia forms. It didn't seem to have an effect at least in that case.
I also saw it on a few trays and cakes of Pan tropicalis, which was a total failure. Only had a couple pins after 2 weeks and they never developed. They were actually grown alongside the Pan cyan alabamas. Color of the blobs never changed for the 2 weeks or so that I had them. So I don't know if it's connected in anyway or just coincidence. I'll see if have it again.
Also you mentioned LC with smaller but dense blobs? I had some lc recently where the mycelium formed tiny dense nuggets that would sink very quickly after turning off the stirrer. The best way I can describe them is like grated parmesan cheese.
It's not like I've not had successful trays with some kind of white blobs inside the substrate, but these blobs seem much harder and there are more of them. Here's an example of absolutely classic casing run from some spores that were sent to me from a collection site near the Mekong River (thanks to _OttO_ which I seldom see around anymore). Let's consider these pictures (the very rightmost picture is like the third flush of five, by the way, if I recall):
 
Here is what I see: first, the casing colonization of this random wild Mekong River strain was NOT CAPABLE of being overlaid because the mycelium that takes on the casing is simply too whispy. This is how all pan cyan strains I'd ever encountered as of four or five years ago worked, and I'd dealt with at least five. I used to assume overlay was impossible with pan cyans. Wow, that's changed! Secondly, yes, there are blobs in the tray--I see that now--but notice how their edges seem to reconnect well with the mycelium bulk in general. There isn't a hard division between the two.
It's almost like these two (overlay and blobs) might actually be kind of the same problem. These genetic lines are pushing way too much metabolic energy into hard issues both throughout the casing and inside the substrate. That's expensive, and that energy is sapped from the development of pins and mushrooms where such hard tissue is appropriate. I'd consider this a genetic flaw at this point. I'd not spread prints from fruiting bodies of trays showing these traits nor bother with them on agar.
We need to stop spreading this stuff. Pan cyans are domesticating in a way that has LESS potential than some wild strain from around the Mekong River! I got 60% BE from FIVE flushes off that random Mekong River strain from _OttO_ while I can't even get these Jamaicans floating around to even pin! What the hell is going on?! Go try a wild strain of corn and you might get a meal off the plant. Go try a domesticated strain of corn and you might get several days worth of corn for an entire family off a plant! That's the way it's supposed to work! Maybe spore vendors just need to recollect some random wild prints at this point because this pan cyan domestication isn't working out.
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Cootermonkey
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26697458 - 05/26/20 04:45 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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That sounds awesome, cant wait to read that log about 10 times haha
-------------------- MyLAGM2020Growlog
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Hans Wermhat
Human


Registered: 06/10/19
Posts: 167
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26697632 - 05/26/20 05:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
Hans Wermhat said: Ok after seeing thenagual's picture of the bottom of a tray I've definitely seen that. On trays of Pan cyan alabama, which pinned within a normal timeframe after casing (4-5 days). I remember thinking it looked like tampanensis on rgs right before sclerotia forms. It didn't seem to have an effect at least in that case.
I also saw it on a few trays and cakes of Pan tropicalis, which was a total failure. Only had a couple pins after 2 weeks and they never developed. They were actually grown alongside the Pan cyan alabamas. Color of the blobs never changed for the 2 weeks or so that I had them. So I don't know if it's connected in anyway or just coincidence. I'll see if have it again.
Also you mentioned LC with smaller but dense blobs? I had some lc recently where the mycelium formed tiny dense nuggets that would sink very quickly after turning off the stirrer. The best way I can describe them is like grated parmesan cheese.
Here is what I see: first, the casing colonization of this random wild Mekong River strain was NOT CAPABLE of being overlaid because the mycelium that takes on the casing is simply too whispy. This is how all pan cyan strains I'd ever encountered as of four or five years ago worked, and I'd dealt with at least five. I used to assume overlay was impossible with pan cyans. Wow, that's changed! Secondly, yes, there are blobs in the tray--I see that now--but notice how their edges seem to reconnect well with the mycelium bulk in general. There isn't a hard division between the two.
Ah, when you put it that way, can't say I've had the same blobs talking about in the first post. The dense spots I've seen were well integrated with the rest of the mycelium. So far I've grown Pan cyan Alabama, Australia, and Wild Coast. Is this mainly problem with the Jamaica?
It's weird that genes that result in worse pinset/yield have been propagated and spread. It doesn't make sense. I can think of a few possibilities for why/how this happened but I have no idea what I'm talking about so take with a grain of salt. First, maybe there's some kind of benefit provided by the overlay genes that make this phenotype better under a very specific set of conditions. For example, maybe this genotype performs better when grown under lower temperatures, and whoever grew and propagated this strain always grew at lower temperatures. Or maybe the spawn has greater longevity on the shelf and whoever grew them always procrastinated spawning to bulk, so that this genotype was more likely to survive into the bulk sub phase.
Second possibility is it was simply a mistake and on agar they selected for the thick cottony growth instead of the wispy stuff, mistaking the thick stuff for "stronger" mycelium. I read that in the past people were reluctant to shake their jars, maybe the thick stuff was selected on agar in the mistaken belief that it would withstand the shake better. Third possibility, how sure are we that the Jamaicans are really a pan cyan. I've heard that Pan cyan Australia is actually Pan tropicalis Australia. Maybe the Jamaican Pans that have been going around recent times is another species? Don't know how realistic this is but just a thought I had
edit: forgot to ask, does the spawn ratio affect how likely this is to overlay?
-------------------- Thank you for taking the time to read this message. Have a wonderful day.
Edited by Hans Wermhat (05/26/20 05:57 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Hans Wermhat]
#26698200 - 05/26/20 10:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hans Wermhat said:
Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
Hans Wermhat said: Ok after seeing thenagual's picture of the bottom of a tray I've definitely seen that. On trays of Pan cyan alabama, which pinned within a normal timeframe after casing (4-5 days). I remember thinking it looked like tampanensis on rgs right before sclerotia forms. It didn't seem to have an effect at least in that case.
I also saw it on a few trays and cakes of Pan tropicalis, which was a total failure. Only had a couple pins after 2 weeks and they never developed. They were actually grown alongside the Pan cyan alabamas. Color of the blobs never changed for the 2 weeks or so that I had them. So I don't know if it's connected in anyway or just coincidence. I'll see if have it again.
Also you mentioned LC with smaller but dense blobs? I had some lc recently where the mycelium formed tiny dense nuggets that would sink very quickly after turning off the stirrer. The best way I can describe them is like grated parmesan cheese.
Here is what I see: first, the casing colonization of this random wild Mekong River strain was NOT CAPABLE of being overlaid because the mycelium that takes on the casing is simply too whispy. This is how all pan cyan strains I'd ever encountered as of four or five years ago worked, and I'd dealt with at least five. I used to assume overlay was impossible with pan cyans. Wow, that's changed! Secondly, yes, there are blobs in the tray--I see that now--but notice how their edges seem to reconnect well with the mycelium bulk in general. There isn't a hard division between the two.
Ah, when you put it that way, can't say I've had the same blobs talking about in the first post. The dense spots I've seen were well integrated with the rest of the mycelium. So far I've grown Pan cyan Alabama, Australia, and Wild Coast. Is this mainly problem with the Jamaica?
It's weird that genes that result in worse pinset/yield have been propagated and spread. It doesn't make sense. I can think of a few possibilities for why/how this happened but I have no idea what I'm talking about so take with a grain of salt. First, maybe there's some kind of benefit provided by the overlay genes that make this phenotype better under a very specific set of conditions. For example, maybe this genotype performs better when grown under lower temperatures, and whoever grew and propagated this strain always grew at lower temperatures. Or maybe the spawn has greater longevity on the shelf and whoever grew them always procrastinated spawning to bulk, so that this genotype was more likely to survive into the bulk sub phase.
Second possibility is it was simply a mistake and on agar they selected for the thick cottony growth instead of the wispy stuff, mistaking the thick stuff for "stronger" mycelium. I read that in the past people were reluctant to shake their jars, maybe the thick stuff was selected on agar in the mistaken belief that it would withstand the shake better. Third possibility, how sure are we that the Jamaicans are really a pan cyan. I've heard that Pan cyan Australia is actually Pan tropicalis Australia. Maybe the Jamaican Pans that have been going around recent times is another species? Don't know how realistic this is but just a thought I had
edit: forgot to ask, does the spawn ratio affect how likely this is to overlay?
Quote:
Hans Wermhat said:
Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
Hans Wermhat said: Ok after seeing thenagual's picture of the bottom of a tray I've definitely seen that. On trays of Pan cyan alabama, which pinned within a normal timeframe after casing (4-5 days). I remember thinking it looked like tampanensis on rgs right before sclerotia forms. It didn't seem to have an effect at least in that case.
I also saw it on a few trays and cakes of Pan tropicalis, which was a total failure. Only had a couple pins after 2 weeks and they never developed. They were actually grown alongside the Pan cyan alabamas. Color of the blobs never changed for the 2 weeks or so that I had them. So I don't know if it's connected in anyway or just coincidence. I'll see if have it again.
Also you mentioned LC with smaller but dense blobs? I had some lc recently where the mycelium formed tiny dense nuggets that would sink very quickly after turning off the stirrer. The best way I can describe them is like grated parmesan cheese.
Here is what I see: first, the casing colonization of this random wild Mekong River strain was NOT CAPABLE of being overlaid because the mycelium that takes on the casing is simply too whispy. This is how all pan cyan strains I'd ever encountered as of four or five years ago worked, and I'd dealt with at least five. I used to assume overlay was impossible with pan cyans. Wow, that's changed! Secondly, yes, there are blobs in the tray--I see that now--but notice how their edges seem to reconnect well with the mycelium bulk in general. There isn't a hard division between the two.
Ah, when you put it that way, can't say I've had the same blobs talking about in the first post. The dense spots I've seen were well integrated with the rest of the mycelium. So far I've grown Pan cyan Alabama, Australia, and Wild Coast. Is this mainly problem with the Jamaica?
It's weird that genes that result in worse pinset/yield have been propagated and spread. It doesn't make sense. I can think of a few possibilities for why/how this happened but I have no idea what I'm talking about so take with a grain of salt. First, maybe there's some kind of benefit provided by the overlay genes that make this phenotype better under a very specific set of conditions. For example, maybe this genotype performs better when grown under lower temperatures, and whoever grew and propagated this strain always grew at lower temperatures. Or maybe the spawn has greater longevity on the shelf and whoever grew them always procrastinated spawning to bulk, so that this genotype was more likely to survive into the bulk sub phase.
Second possibility is it was simply a mistake and on agar they selected for the thick cottony growth instead of the wispy stuff, mistaking the thick stuff for "stronger" mycelium. I read that in the past people were reluctant to shake their jars, maybe the thick stuff was selected on agar in the mistaken belief that it would withstand the shake better. Third possibility, how sure are we that the Jamaicans are really a pan cyan. I've heard that Pan cyan Australia is actually Pan tropicalis Australia. Maybe the Jamaican Pans that have been going around recent times is another species? Don't know how realistic this is but just a thought I had
edit: forgot to ask, does the spawn ratio affect how likely this is to overlay?
Does the spawn ratio affect how likely this is to overlay? I can't answer that, friend. I don't spawn my bulk subs. I squirt the bulk substrate with LC. I'm sure there are those doing spawn, though. Ask them.
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thenagual



Registered: 02/20/15
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26698444 - 05/27/20 02:35 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Blue helix;
For notes -
I’ve only had success so far by spawning my pan cyans . Last run I did 1:1 , This run is 1:3 .
So far both grows look identical , they both have the blobs . I just put the new batch in the fc tonight and plan to run identical fruiting specs for the environment .
I’ll post back and let you guys know if anything is different .
It’s funny you mentioned that the domesticated pan cyans going around are shit.
I tried 2 times with prints friom well known vendors - once more with a Jamaican print from a trade - could’ve been lack of experience , maybe genetics .
The first two times - I ended up getting pink and yellow contaminates(lip stick mold) - I’ve never encountered these in my entire time growing mushrooms .
I then acquired a Florida print , undomesticated .
The last two runs , where I got fruits - were from that wild print .
It’s really a shame if it’s bad prints/ crap genetics floating around . This isn’t the first time I’ve heard this either
The wild prints seem more viral from what you’d wrote and what I’ve experienced this far .
With more work do they become better- stay viral ? Or is it a possibility that they lose their good traits once domesticated ?
There need to be a dedicated pan cyan sub section !!!
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Hans Wermhat]
#26698897 - 05/27/20 08:18 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's weird that genes that result in worse pinset/yield have been propagated and spread. It doesn't make sense. I can think of a few possibilities for why/how this happened but I have no idea what I'm talking about so take with a grain of salt. First, maybe there's some kind of benefit provided by the overlay genes that make this phenotype better under a very specific set of conditions. For example, maybe this genotype performs better when grown under lower temperatures, and whoever grew and propagated this strain always grew at lower temperatures. Or maybe the spawn has greater longevity on the shelf and whoever grew them always procrastinated spawning to bulk, so that this genotype was more likely to survive into the bulk sub phase.
Second possibility is it was simply a mistake and on agar they selected for the thick cottony growth instead of the wispy stuff, mistaking the thick stuff for "stronger" mycelium. I read that in the past people were reluctant to shake their jars, maybe the thick stuff was selected on agar in the mistaken belief that it would withstand the shake better. Third possibility, how sure are we that the Jamaicans are really a pan cyan. I've heard that Pan cyan Australia is actually Pan tropicalis Australia. Maybe the Jamaican Pans that have been going around recent times is another species? Don't know how realistic this is but just a thought I had
edit: forgot to ask, does the spawn ratio affect how likely this is to overlay?
I hadn't considered that maybe what I'm seeing is that some of these pans are being selected to grow in non-native conditions. That's definitely possible. In the past, I've not really messed around with the conditions. The trays are kept at 78F +/- 1F at all times (perhaps 1F lower at night and 1F higher during the day). I don't mess with the temperature or humidity, and for a tropical strain, I'd expect I provide about what they might experience in nature in the best of times. If people have been breeding for better growth at normal room temperature (say 73F), then I had no idea about it. I don't know what is going on really. I just know that things were fine (for me) and now I'm seeing some odd stuff happening.
One might naturally wonder what happened to my wild spore collections. Well, let's just say there was a scare and I decided it was wise to eliminate them. No, there wasn't some big bust--nor would I think there should be one given I don't know anyone--but I felt the potential existed due to a particular person I met at Burning Man who seemed to have some serious problems. That was unfortunate and, given I'm normally a hermit basically who hardly noticed the difference between pre-COVID days and now, it was unusual. I wish I had kept those prints, though. If I had I'd be spreading them. As it stands, I have some nice prints to investigate now thanks to Asura and jcm4620, but it takes time to test them.
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A.k.a
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26698930 - 05/27/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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One of these pan threads said lower spawn ratios do better.
The one in my signature is small, it’s a half gallon of milk but there’s maybe a tablespoon and a half of wbs in it.
I was really surprised, it’s gotta be cuz they eat the manure so the grain isn’t the only food source.
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LAGM2020     
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: A.k.a]
#26699001 - 05/27/20 09:04 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: One of these pan threads said lower spawn ratios do better.
The one in my signature is small, it’s a half gallon of milk but there’s maybe a tablespoon and a half of wbs in it.
I was really surprised, it’s gotta be cuz they eat the manure so the grain isn’t the only food source.
No. Using this method of spawning should not matter. I don't care what method someone uses. The fact is that this should not happen.
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A.k.a
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26699067 - 05/27/20 09:28 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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For sure, I’m just saying in general for whoever asked one of the instructional threads said less spawn than cubes does better.
Next time an lc produces some of these some should be put to grain and plates to see if there’s anyway to ID it early on.
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LAGM2020     
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Puduwoke
mushroom enthusiastic

Registered: 06/25/17
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: A.k.a]
#26699158 - 05/27/20 10:10 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I use spawn ratio of 1:4. Following Jake's advice if I remember correctly.
Also I'm looking forward to see the grow log Blue
Learnt a lot from you and most of all a lot of inspiration to learn to grow Pans!
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Trade List LAGM2021
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Puduwoke]
#26699387 - 05/27/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Okay, it's day 8 post casing and I see pins off the trays with the masses. It's nothing special at this point, although I'd say the pins are larger than I usually see, but it's hard to tell this early how many will sprout. I will post pictures later, but I wanted to update this thread because I said I could not get mushrooms off trays that had those blobs. Well, that's not true now.
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Puduwoke
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26699417 - 05/27/20 01:06 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Keep us updated please
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Trade List LAGM2021
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: A.k.a]
#26699418 - 05/27/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: For sure, I’m just saying in general for whoever asked one of the instructional threads said less spawn than cubes does better.
Next time an lc produces some of these some should be put to grain and plates to see if there’s anyway to ID it early on.
I use the following formula for the bulk sub (makes 10 pounds about):
Horse manure 44 oz WBS 10 oz Water 100 oz Vermiculite 1.5 liter
As you can see, there is WBS in there, so nutritionally speaking, it's as if I spawned a bulk sub. The reason I don't really like spawning is simply because I've done it with cubes, and I was not impressed with the yield. Cubes should fruit so densely that you can't see the casing like this (these trays were around 100% biological efficiency):
  
The pin set should be about like this, if not better:
 
I wasn't seeing that with spawning, but using LC techniques direct to bulk substrate this was common. If spawning worked as well as what I'm doing, I'd use it, but for me it doesn't. In fact some of my biggest disappointments were spawning cubes to straw. I'd get like 50 mushrooms over several square feet of the surface and one flush for like 5% BE. I don't know what I did wrong, but I just stopped bothering because it wouldn't produce consistent high-yield results for me.
PS - that cube strain was Ecuadorian. Here's what the bags looked like:
2 days after inoculation:

4 days after inoculation:
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26699512 - 05/27/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Here was one of my favorite wild collections. For some reason I didn't get second-flush pictures, but check this out:
Flush 1:
 
Flush 3:
 
Flush 4:
 
Flush 5:
 
After the fifth flush, I just got tired of picking them, so I retired the trays. I think I could have gotten another couple flushes, though. Again, this was a wild collection that yielded about 60% BE over those five flushes.
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A.k.a
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26699623 - 05/27/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah those are super sick tubs. Love when the pins come in dense like that.
Do you know why lc to bulk seems to work better? Or have any theories?
Now that I’ve finally got pan jam clones maybe I’ll try both and see if I get a big difference like that. Those last pictures are insane, flushing that thick five times.
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LAGM2020     
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: A.k.a]
#26699679 - 05/27/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: Yeah those are super sick tubs. Love when the pins come in dense like that.
Do you know why lc to bulk seems to work better? Or have any theories?
Now that I’ve finally got pan jam clones maybe I’ll try both and see if I get a big difference like that. Those last pictures are insane, flushing that thick five times.
The more thoroughly and evenly you can colonize a substrate, the better it'll produce mushrooms. When you have an LC, it reaches everywhere in the bulk substrate right away. Then it's sterile in the spawn bag, so it colonizes it rapidly and completely without any competition from bacteria or mold. Spawning methods can be just as good, but for me they were not. I think in my case, I was seeing the effect of the substrate temperature being too low. That transitioned the substrate into pinning in some spots even before it was fully colonized in others. I don't know why that happened, but I couldn't figure out how to stop it. The mycelium just colonized too slowly and not as evenly with spawning, especially with very large beds. I couldn't find anyone who knew why either.
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Hans Wermhat
Human


Registered: 06/10/19
Posts: 167
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: A.k.a]
#26699724 - 05/27/20 02:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've noticed when prepping rye, that if I mix dry rye and water straight in the jar and sterilize (like how RGS is usually prepped), they colonize faster than if I prep rye the normal way (boiling rye in a giant pot of water to hydrate and then straining). I was surprised by this and repeated it many more times, same result. The downside though is that hydrating and sterilizing in one step in the jars makes a lot of burst grains and makes it harder to shake. My guess is that when we prep our grains by boiling in a giant pot of water and then pouring all that water down the drain, it leeches out a ton of the nutrients from the grains, whereas putting dry grains with bulk sub in a bag and sterilizing saves all the nutrients, like hydrating and sterilizing all-in-one in the jar. I saw a write up by violet where she says something to that effect.
As far as spawning to pasteurized bulk versus using bags, I've had better results spawning to bulk, but then again my Pan grows haven't been nearly as impressive as Blue Helix's. Spawning to bulk it fully colonize in well under a week, typically around 5 days.
-------------------- Thank you for taking the time to read this message. Have a wonderful day.
Edited by Hans Wermhat (05/27/20 02:54 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Hans Wermhat]
#26699762 - 05/27/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hans Wermhat said: I've noticed when prepping rye, that if I mix dry rye and water straight in the jar and sterilize (like how RGS is usually prepped), they colonize faster than if I prep rye the normal way (boiling rye in a giant pot of water to hydrate and then straining). I was surprised by this and repeated it many more times, same result. The downside though is that hydrating and sterilizing in one step in the jars makes a lot of burst grains and makes it harder to shake. My guess is that when we prep our grains by boiling in a giant pot of water and then pouring all that water down the drain, it leeches out a ton of the nutrients from the grains, whereas putting dry grains with bulk sub in a bag and sterilizing saves all the nutrients, like hydrating and sterilizing all-in-one in the jar. I saw a write up by violet where she says something to that effect.
As far as spawning to pasteurized bulk versus using bags, I've had better results spawning to bulk, but then again my Pan grows haven't been nearly as impressive as Blue Helix's. Spawning to bulk it fully colonize in well under a week, typically around 5 days.
When I make the bulk substrate in the bags, I do not boil the wild bird seed or strain it. It just goes in dry, and the measurements above are for dry seed. That might actually help the substrate have more nutrition. LC injected in a spawn bag usually colonized the bag in 5 to 8 days, depending on a bunch of other factors.
The spawn bags I use hold up to 10 pounds of substrate each, so a single bag can make 4 trays. If you do the math, it's about 160g dried pan cyans then for a single bag with a decent run (and about 50% more from a perfect run). Since pan cyans are about 5X as potent, if not more, than cubes, it's like harvesting almost 2 POUNDS DRY of cubensis from a SINGLE SPAWN BAG! Now I see a lot of okay grows here, but when you are pulling that much material out of a single spawn bag, I don't see a reason to do it any other way. The only exception would be if you start to do professional trays that are 8 or 10 square feet each in some country where all this is a legal enterprise. That's different, but honestly, even then I'm not sure which technique would yield pounds easier.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26704687 - 05/29/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Okay, it's day 10 post case, so development was pretty much normal. There seemed to be a bit of stalling in the overall development, so I brought back down the relative humidity to 97% (from the 100% I was experimenting with). That grew them out normally overnight.
The most prominent thing I notice is an extremely poor pin set despite the near-perfect casing colonization. The blobs--which I thought spelled doom to the whole grow--seem to have softened as the fruits developed. And the casing itself still looks perfect with no mold or anything showing.
The fruits themselves have larger caps than usual (almost Cambo-like), but the stems are sicklily twisted as if I grew them without light or air exchange (there was plenty of full-spectrum light, though). Stems should be straight in a good run, and when I see this in other's grows, I assume poor air exchange or light (but that was not the case here).
I guess I'll never know what makes rare screw-ups like this happen. It wasn't the blobs I feared. I guess I'll assume bad genetics, so obviously, I won't take any prints from the fruits. And the associated LC will be disposed of. That is unless a practical miracle happens in a subsequent flush (and I've never seen that happen).

PS - If this was the fourth to the fifth flush, I would be happy with it (especially that left tray), but as a first flush, this is a failure in my book.
PSS - The aragonite layer made absolutely no difference. I'll keep using it in the casing until I test it, but I won't bother with my aragonite layer directly on the substrate. I had originally thought that is what helped me defeat overlay, but I now see that the way you defeat overlay is simply having the trays recover for 48 hours after you lay them before you case them. That consolidation time is critical to avoid overlay in an overlay-prone strain.
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A.k.a
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26704696 - 05/29/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Those are some big caps.
Have you tried putting the lc to agar to see what it looks like? I’m curious if there’s some sort of correlation with how the myc looks. It’d take a lot of experimenting to nail it down but still.
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Edited by A.k.a (05/29/20 01:40 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: A.k.a]
#26704712 - 05/29/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: Those are some big caps.
Have you tried putting the lc to agar to see what it looks like? I’m curious if there’s some sort of correlation with how the myc looks. It’d take a lot of experimenting to nail it down but still.
Yes, I did. Two interesting things happened. The first was that the mycelium was thicker than I would expect for pan cyan. I like pan cyan on agar to be whispy and rapidly, symmetrically projecting, but this was kind of thick, not symmetrical, and not that fast. The second--and this one really blew my mind--was that after a month in the refrigerator, the mycelium flattened out and took on a slight bit of beige color, almost as if it was contaminated with something (both plates showed this). And maybe it IS contaminated, but if so, it didn't prevent the flush obviously.
I definitely will be curious about what happens the second flush. If it's amazing, you'll see it here!
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26704793 - 05/29/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
A.k.a said: Those are some big caps.
Have you tried putting the lc to agar to see what it looks like? I’m curious if there’s some sort of correlation with how the myc looks. It’d take a lot of experimenting to nail it down but still.
Yes, I did. Two interesting things happened. The first was that the mycelium was thicker than I would expect for pan cyan. I like pan cyan on agar to be whispy and rapidly, symmetrically projecting, but this was kind of thick, not symmetrical, and not that fast. The second--and this one really blew my mind--was that after a month in the refrigerator, the mycelium flattened out and took on a slight bit of beige color, almost as if it was contaminated with something (both plates showed this). And maybe it IS contaminated, but if so, it didn't prevent the flush obviously.
I definitely will be curious about what happens the second flush. If it's amazing, you'll see it here!
I noticed that some places on the casing had that beige color that I saw on the agar plates. It was where the casing growth was thicker. Maybe it's just what happens to this mycelium as it ages or maybe it is contamination. It looks like it's probably not contamination, though.
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A.k.a
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26704815 - 05/29/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Interesting.
I’m just doing my first run with stone producers and was told that on plates the myc gets an orange color to it prior to stone formation.
Idk if that’s true or not but maybe in rare cases the pans produce stones. That could explain the color and also why the flushes aren’t as heavy if it’s using energy for that at the same time.
I know there’s that blue pearl pan and I’ve also had tons of weird stone like things on my plates. Haven’t found them in the sub so far.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: A.k.a]
#26705046 - 05/29/20 04:07 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: Interesting.
I’m just doing my first run with stone producers and was told that on plates the myc gets an orange color to it prior to stone formation.
Idk if that’s true or not but maybe in rare cases the pans produce stones. That could explain the color and also why the flushes aren’t as heavy if it’s using energy for that at the same time.
I know there’s that blue pearl pan and I’ve also had tons of weird stone like things on my plates. Haven’t found them in the sub so far.
A.k.a - that's the best theory I've heard. If I were to guess, I'd say that's exactly it.
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Asura
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26705404 - 05/29/20 06:21 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hey BH, for the record, I let my trays recover for 5 days and I still get overlay from time to time. Maybe there's a sweet spot in the middle.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura]
#26705452 - 05/29/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: Hey BH, for the record, I let my trays recover for 5 days and I still get overlay from time to time. Maybe there's a sweet spot in the middle.
Or maybe it still is a genetic trait. These maybe were not as prone to overlay. I also wonder if it's a condition thing. Do you keep yours around 78F consistently? Also, do you give them at least 24 hours after full colonization in the bag?
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Asura
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26705532 - 05/29/20 07:23 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I let mine colonize and recover in trays at room temp...about 72F.
Fruiting I like 77-78F but I can't use a temp controller in my house due to old wiring. I have to manually adjust temps so it fluctuates between 77-81F or so.
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Hans Wermhat
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura]
#26707751 - 05/30/20 06:58 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I doubt it's contamination because it seems to be a strain-dependent phenomenon. That suggests it probably is a genetic issue or viral and not a contam.
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vinnie boombotz
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Hans Wermhat]
#26708131 - 05/30/20 11:24 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Perhaps too much nitrogen? Isn't there some White mushroom that grows When that happens
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: vinnie boombotz]
#26708144 - 05/30/20 11:45 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
vinnie boombotz said: Perhaps too much nitrogen? Isn't there some White mushroom that grows When that happens
I never vary the fruiting substrate. I have the best mix I know, and it outperforms anything I've tried over the years. And, no, it's not nitrogen-hot. That's an amateur mistake where people swear by these overly-complex formulations which are always too rich. I've seen substrates so complex that they look like some witch's brew. Mine is almost entirely manure and vermiculite with a very small amount of wild birdseed.
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Celestialexplorer1



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26709209 - 05/31/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I’ve got a giant stone looking mass growing on a tropicalis cake right now I’ll post pictures later. Cinctulus also produces blue stone looking masses as well especially on agar.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#26805328 - 07/05/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
vinnie boombotz said: Perhaps too much nitrogen? Isn't there some White mushroom that grows When that happens
I never vary the fruiting substrate. I have the best mix I know, and it outperforms anything I've tried over the years. And, no, it's not nitrogen-hot. That's an amateur mistake where people swear by these overly-complex formulations which are always too rich. I've seen substrates so complex that they look like some witch's brew. Mine is almost entirely manure and vermiculite with a very small amount of wild birdseed.
Wow, just as I got done saying this a grower on Shroomery has challenged this view. He is using a substrate mix that is 50% cooked/rinsed rye and 50% a 3:2 per volume mix of chopped straw and horse manure. I never would have thought something like that would work given how nitrogen-rich it is, but using that substrate he claims to have achieved 100% biological efficiency (BE) over 3 flushes with a Jamaican pan cyan strain. In comparison, my top BE with pan cyans, was about 70% over 5 flushes so far. Needless to say, I'm trying to duplicate his amazing result, but if you really can grow pan cyans on a substrate that rich, it'll change the yield game for sure. Richer substrates have the potential to outperform more conventional ones in terms of BE, but usually, they are not great for this species. If I can duplicate his success, I'll let everyone know!
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Asura
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26805471 - 07/05/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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If that works, my bet is it's going to be a genetic thing. I think everyone who grows cyans has tried and failed to use large ratios...at least once. I have never been able to make it work for me. Would love to be wrong about this.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura]
#26805580 - 07/05/20 04:16 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: If that works, my bet is it's going to be a genetic thing. I think everyone who grows cyans has tried and failed to use large ratios...at least once. I have never been able to make it work for me. Would love to be wrong about this.
The only explanation I could muster is that maybe the high straw content brought down the nitrogen content low enough and the increased air exchange high enough to allow it to work. I'm going to try the same culture growing on both my normal substrate and this grain-rich one. If there is no advantage to the grain, then I see no reason to waste money on a substrate like that. If there truly is a 30 to 40% improvement on BE--or even close to it--I'll let everyone know. I don't doubt he's done it, but I've heard of so many "magical substrates" over the years that failed to deliver for me personally that I'm skeptical. At least this one is very simple.
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A.k.a
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26805584 - 07/05/20 04:17 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I’m in the happened to get a culture that likes that mixture perfect storm type of deal.
It would be nice to increase yields like that though, hopefully it works out.
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Puduwoke
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: A.k.a]
#26806182 - 07/06/20 03:55 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Keep doing the lords work Helix and Asura
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KuroKitsune
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: A.k.a]
#28510242 - 10/19/23 05:48 AM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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I know this thread is a bit old and Blue has passed , may he rest in peace. I just thought I'd add that I have similar on a T2 plate from a BVI wild print, so stones are probably possible across a wide range of genetics.

Edited by KuroKitsune (10/19/23 06:08 AM)
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11.11
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: KuroKitsune]
#28516083 - 10/24/23 01:05 AM (6 months, 21 days ago) |
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Does anyone know how to replace manure for substrate? What's the line-up?
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Mishka
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: KuroKitsune]
#28518394 - 10/26/23 12:31 AM (6 months, 19 days ago) |
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Blue passed away? he gave me my first cyan print many years ago rip
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