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Blue Helix
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Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate 1
#26695198 - 05/25/20 03:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've run across a new problem in a few pan cyan grows. It is the strangest thing too, and I want to hear from anyone else who has seen this issue. Everything in the LC to my substrate bags looks normal, although I'd say the blob size in the LC seemed to be unusually small (but dense anyway). Once the trays are laid, though, bright white blobs form in the substrate itself even while the casing colonized perfectly (this is one of those overlay monsters that came on the scene a few years back but I know how to treat it to prevent the overlay getting out of hand). Below I have a picture showing the blobs looking in from the side of the glass tray and underside. I also show the picture-perfect casing despite the overlay monster characteristics of this modified strain (the new Jamaicans still making rounds).
 
Normally, I would expect a massive flush in a few days because usually, the way the casing colonizes tells me everything I need to know about the pin set, but I've dealt with these blobs before from this print. And those blobs mean there will be no pins from these trays no matter how great the casing looks. What are these blobs? Is this mold? If it's mold, it's odd since it never seems to sporulate in another color. Also wouldn't mold outcompete the pan cyan mycelium early on rather than after the trays are laid?
Lastly, I want to emphasize that this LC came from a second-generation agar transfer that looked clean. In fact there was no indication whatsoever of a problem with the agar at the point of transfer from the first or second plate. I kept the second plate in the refrigerator for about a month, though, and it did start to look funny. It developed a very minor buff color (almost hard to see) and the mycelium projection seemed squashed all the sudden rather than fluffy. But if you can't see mold running with mycelium in the first couple weeks on agar, what good is agar in this case? Agar basically revealed nothing then. I'd need to know about mold when the agar plate is ready to use, not a month or two later.
Edited by Blue Helix (05/25/20 03:26 PM)
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Asura
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#26695225 - 05/25/20 03:36 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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For the record, I am experiencing this, too and Blue Helix and I have been discussing it for awhile. Definitely want to know if others are seeing this.
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A.k.a
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura]
#26695296 - 05/25/20 04:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I wonder if it’s related to the weird stones you see on plates with these. Pan jam is the only one I’ve run so far so idk how common these are.

I’m about to spawn a jar cloned from one tomorrow. The myc looks good so we’ll see.
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LAGM2020     
Edited by A.k.a (05/25/20 04:25 PM)
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: A.k.a]
#26695349 - 05/25/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don’t have a lot of pan cyan experience but last grow I did had those blobs . I had a great yield 40 grams dry - from two 12” trays .
The blobs didn’t appear until I cased with manure and straw @50/50
One of the trays had a lot of mycelium that ate the casing layer on one side - I thought it would over lay - I hit it with my fan when I saw this and didn’t have an issue . My flush was pretty filled out .
My new one from the same agar/lc has them too - I haven’t noticed any I’ll effects though .
Im gonna lay casing tomorrow - I’ll post some pics when I do .
Sorry I don’t have much else to add beyond that -
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Hans Wermhat
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: A.k.a]
#26695388 - 05/25/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Here's a picture of a grow a few months ago from the side (didn't take any pictures of the bottom of the tray), are these the same blobs you're describing or is this just typical growth?
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Asura
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Hans Wermhat]
#26695422 - 05/25/20 05:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I can't tell from the pic, Hans. I will say these blobs are not wispy at all. They look like rubber. And they stand out compared to the wispy growth. They are whiter.
I have a tray in the FC now that has them. I had a small spot of overlay(?) in one of the corners and I scraped it for science. It turned dark blue immediately. Honestly, I don't remember overlay ever bruising...could be my poor memory though.
Also, I had several clusters of aborts in that tray that died off and the surrounding area turned dark blue as well.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Hans Wermhat]
#26695605 - 05/25/20 07:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'll just chime in that I agree with Asura on this; they do not look whispy at all.
I must admit that all pan cyan grows I've ever done were like clockwork. I can pretty much predict pinning within 48 hours of all of them because it's always almost the exact same few days. But these didn't pin for me in a timely fashion. I'm not one to usually wait around two weeks for pinning on Pan Cyans since the whole beauty of them is they are fast-growing, consistent, and potent (unlike cubes which are slower and have wildly differing time frames for development). I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the pans with the blobs did pin say 14 days later than the lay if the conditions are kept perfect, then I wouldn't even know since I would never expect any tray to pin that late and would toss it. The first expanding pins are always day 5 to 7 (rarely day 8) after the casing lay in all other trays I've made - if they are to pin at all (this is 24 to 48 hours after the knotting is observed). Also in other trays where I saw strange masses in the substrate that were colored, pinning didn't happen there either. But these are white and harder mycelium, much like what one might expect if a pin tried to push out against the sides of the tray but aborted.
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26695635 - 05/25/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I tried to snap a picture of my new trays right now , couldn’t get a good one
These white spots are bright white - rubbery and look very simialr to Galindo mycelium when it starts forming truffles - before they turn brown .
I defiantly had these on my last grow - one of the trays had a spot like this that was 4 inches across . I forgot I still had one of the trays left / below is a picture .
I moved it to my shed - it had a full , nice pin set - got trich half way through the second flush .
Edited by thenagual (05/25/20 07:55 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695658 - 05/25/20 08:02 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes, that looks about like them, thenagual. Do you happen to recall the timeframe from laying the casing to the first pins developing? Maybe these blobs are more or less a red herring here, and maybe these large wastes of metabolic energy only slow way down the grows, not prevent pinning altogether. That might be why I didn't see pins - simply didn't wait long enough.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695684 - 05/25/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Also mine does eventually turn a very light brownish color too. Again it looks to me like the mycelium literally doesn't know where the pinning surface is, so it's pushing energy into fruiting body-like tissue development in the substrate itself. But if that's it, that's weird too since I don't remember seeing this before. I guess if there were such blobs in trays I've done before, I might not even notice since I'm looking at the top surface, not through the glass on the underside. And if I saw it on the sides, I would assume just pin development that aborted, which happens with clear 13x9" trays as I use.
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26695735 - 05/25/20 08:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said: Yes, that looks about like them, thenagual. Do you happen to recall the timeframe from laying the casing to the first pins developing? Maybe these blobs are more or less a red herring here, and maybe these large wastes of metabolic energy only slow way down the grows, not prevent pinning altogether. That might be why I didn't see pins - simply didn't wait long enough.
Pins appeared around 48 hours of being put into the tent ;
So - I laid my sub and grains - it fully colonized in 3 days
Then I cased it and put it immediately into fruiting .
I misted pretty well for 1.5 days and just let my tent run like normal .
one tray had mycelium come up over 20%of the casing on one side ,I thought they were fucked - so I opened the tent and stuck a fan in front of it for 5 mins on setting 1.
pins came up The next morning so I I kept up the fan thing- this was roughly 48 hours .
Both trays ended up filling out completly - I got 20 grams dry from each tray .
I think the blobs might be a way of the mycelium preserving itself? or metabolic energy waste like you said?
My trays are 12x9 I think - I didn’t measure the sides - I’m doing a 2.2 inch sub depth .
What kinda yields are you pulling off theses trays ?
I think I got really close to a max yield but have no idea , From lack of experience
I don’t know if it’s strain characteristics -I’m wondering if tweaking some things I could get some fatter bodies - mine were real tall and skinny but tons of them - it took me forever to harvest .
Edited by thenagual (05/25/20 08:49 PM)
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Asura
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695775 - 05/25/20 09:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I use the 13x9 trays and I think my yields are less but I expect a good harvest to be 28-32ozooops...grams dry. They usually come in that range like clockwork for me.
The only thing I can add is that I am also seeing pretty large amounts of exudate on the surface of these trays. Some of it is crystal clear and some amber. I've removed it with a syringe and most of it is water-like in texture, but some if it is almost like jello or really soft agar.
Edited by Asura (05/25/20 09:27 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695784 - 05/25/20 09:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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For the first flush, a successful pan cyan run is about 40% biological efficiency (BE). My trays have about 2.5 pounds of substrate per tray. That means I'd expect 35% * 2.5 pounds of fresh and 1/10th that about dry. So I get about 2.5*.35*454/10 or 40g cracker-dry grams on a typical successful first flush in a 13'x9' pans about 1.7" deep with pan cyans (for drying I use a force-feed fan and calcium chloride desiccant in a closed trash can to make sure I get all the water). Through subsequent flushes I have achieved 60% BE with pan cyans (and a bit more with pan cambo), so 20g more for a grand total of 60g dried per tray, but that extra 20% BE is not trivial. You really need to pull 4 flushes or so to make that happen, which means you can't be wasting metabolic energy on weird stuff like contamination or screwed up genetics (like I suspect here).
This is my last truly successful grow of the Jamacian pan cyans with the overlay issue. The first flush was about 40% BE if I recall, so 40g dry per tray. My total was maybe 45% BE, though, since the overlay issue still costs yield, even if I can somewhat control it. My entire point of growing these again is to make sure my method of dealing with the overlay works in more than a case study of one run. If it does, I'd let the forums know.
 
Edited by Blue Helix (05/25/20 09:24 PM)
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura]
#26695786 - 05/25/20 09:21 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: I use the 13x9 trays and I think my yields are less but I expect a good harvest to be 28-32oz dry. They usually come in that range like clockwork for me.
The only thing I can add is that I am also seeing pretty large amounts of exudate on the surface of these trays. Some of it is crystal clear and some amber. I've removed it with a syringe and most of it is water-like in texture, but some if it is almost like jello or really soft agar.
I was wondering what that was - I didn’t have any on my pans but my cubensis have been getting that weird jelly layer - I think its because the water where I moved to is much harder.
If I don’t clean my humidifier every week it gets bad to the point where I’m getting terrible yields and fruiting gets delayed .
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura]
#26695789 - 05/25/20 09:22 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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What is your per-tray dry harvest, Asura? Surely it's not 32 oz dry (that'd be 2 pounds dry)! Even if that is wet, it is higher than what I get in those tiny 13"x9" trays. I get about half that wet per tray for the first flush.
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Blue Helix]
#26695798 - 05/25/20 09:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said: For the first flush, a successful pan cyan run is about 40% biological efficiency (BE). My trays have about 2.5 pounds of substrate per tray. That means I'd expect 35% * 2.5 pounds of fresh and 1/10th that about dry. So I get about 2.5*.35*454/10 or 40g cracker-dry grams on a typical successful first flush in a 13'x9' pans about 1.7" deep with pan cyans (for drying I use a force-feed fan and calcium chloride desiccant in a closed trash can to make sure I get all the water). Through subsequent flushes I have achieved 60% BE with pan cyans (and a bit more with pan cambo), so 20g more for a grand total of 60g dried per tray, but that extra 20% BE is not trivial. You really need to pull 4 flushes or so to make that happen, which means you can't be wasting metabolic energy on weird stuff like contamination or screwed up genetics (like I suspect here).
This is my last truly successful grow of the Jamacian pan cyans with the overlay issue. The first flush was about 40% BE if I recall, so 40g dry. My total was maybe 45% BE, though, since the overlay issue still costs yield, even if I can somewhat control it. My entire point of growing these again is to make sure my method of dealing with the overlay works in more than a case study of one run. If it does, I'd let the forums know.
  
Damn! Blue helix - I got a lot to learn - I need to follow some more of your threads ! Haha
I still need to get my Jamaican off the ground - I had Jamaican and Texas cyans going but they never made it past agar due to me moving and everything contaminating in storage locker .
I think I got the Jamaican from asura - maybe the Texas I can’t remember which - either way thanks guys .
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695804 - 05/25/20 09:28 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Just checked my containers -I’m getting these from the 99C store - theyre
12x8- need to weigh my sub next time so I can get a percentage on yield - still need to eat some of these to, haven’t yet.
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Asura
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695805 - 05/25/20 09:29 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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LOL grams! Not oz. That would be a sight to see.
thenagual, I have really hard water as well, but I run it all through a carbon filter...and I've been OCD about changing out all the water every 4-5 days now.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: thenagual]
#26695811 - 05/25/20 09:32 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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If you search, you can see Asura is kicking out some incredible flushes too! When people ask me about how my flushes are so dense, it's attention to details. Everything is pretty tightly controlled. Take the substrate evenness: that's a rolling pin for me. And I spend quite a bit of time to make sure my casing is even too (using a rolling pin with no applied pressure to make sure it's even). The casing consistency and pH are not left to guess either. In other words, little things make a huge difference, but dealing with kind of strange genetics can really screw up yield no matter how much detailing you apply. You have to have reasonable genetics first, which is all I used to see. Lately, I've been seeing some weird stuff, and so has Asura.
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thenagual



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Re: Strange white masses in pan cyan substrate [Re: Asura]
#26695819 - 05/25/20 09:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: LOL grams! Not oz. That would be a sight to see.
thenagual, I have really hard water as well, but I run it all through a carbon filter...and I've been OCD about changing out all the water every 4-5 days now.
I thought about using a carbon filter . I’ve just been disassembling everything and soaking everything (minus humidifier unit ) it in bleach water followed by a vinegar then hot water flush .
I want to ditch my humidifier soon and get a disc fogger , I still need to research though and find out how small I can go for just a 4 tier tent. I’ll eventually be getting another tent , no space for now . I’ve already taken up my closet in my bedroom - a walk in closet , and have overflow of supplies in my shed/backyard - wife’s not giving up anymore space ...
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