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VajraWarrior
Stranger


Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 34
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: Can there be a truly selfless act? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26693879 - 05/24/20 10:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm a bit on the fence about the grateful aspect. Sounds like more of a hindsight thing since the ones who can make it say they are while the ones who languish because of the world we built wish to end it all.
Learning about how much of what we take for comfort and how many others pay the price for it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and leaves me wondering as to whether life is truly good in the end. In sense our society is vampiric and I'm not sure if it's possible to make one that isn't in the end. Human history even from Hunter Gatherers has been that way.
-------------------- Soooo nothing's real and everything is real? Exactly. UGH! Then what was the point of any of this? -O.K KO
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Can there be a truly selfless act? [Re: VajraWarrior]
#26693924 - 05/24/20 10:59 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
VajraWarrior said: I'm a bit on the fence about the grateful aspect. Sounds like more of a hindsight thing since the ones who can make it say they are while the ones who languish because of the world we built wish to end it all. .
Not in my experience. Not even close. I’ve met many of people in either position - and many of both are grateful. Maybe even skewed in favor of those who don’t have as much material comfort & security like the so many do.
Even in the US I’ve known many in either position who are grateful and know what they have worked for is circumstantial and subject to change, and I’ve only lived in 3 states, 1 prefecture in Japan, & 2 states in Mexico. Maybe that’s just the type of people I ran into & forge relationships with?
Who knows, but I’ve meet people who lack deep essence & perspective, living without a sense of humility or gratitude, and they are all lost & miserable - and their confusion and misery is only interrupted by the next distraction from having to come to terms with things as they are.
Idk what your on the fence about or how you got there, but I assure you that the current iteration of who you are will continue changing.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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VajraWarrior
Stranger


Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 34
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: Can there be a truly selfless act? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26693938 - 05/24/20 11:10 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said:
Quote:
VajraWarrior said: I'm a bit on the fence about the grateful aspect. Sounds like more of a hindsight thing since the ones who can make it say they are while the ones who languish because of the world we built wish to end it all. .
Not in my experience. Not even close. I’ve met many of people in either position - and many of both are grateful. Maybe even skewed in favor of those who don’t have as much material comfort & security like the so many do.
Even in the US I’ve known many in either position who are grateful and know what they have worked for is circumstantial and subject to change, and I’ve only lived in 3 states.
Even more true from my experience living in Japan & Mexico. Maybe that’s just the type of people I ran into & forge relationships with?
Who knows, but I’ve meet people who lack deep essence & perspective, living without a sense of humility or gratitude, and they are all lost & miserable - and their confusion and misery is only interrupted by the next distraction from having to come to terms with things as they are.
I still think it sounds like privilege to me.
Many people suffer greatly each day and for some there is no recourse. Yet they strive onward for what reason? I cannot say. I think gratitude sounds more like confirmation bias than an accurate view of the world and life at large. My theory is that it's our survival instinct in a clever disguise tricking us into living when there isn't a need to.
I think the people you meet don't grasp how their lives come at the expense of others or what it's built on, I would be so bold as to argue 98% of people don't know. That's what troubles me the most, that my life is built on people's backs. I can be carefree while most toil and don't know rest.
-------------------- Soooo nothing's real and everything is real? Exactly. UGH! Then what was the point of any of this? -O.K KO
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Can there be a truly selfless act? [Re: VajraWarrior]
#26693955 - 05/24/20 11:24 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you know the people I know, you would blush in embarrassment for saying what you are saying.
You sound out of touch, or maybe your just expressing only one aspect of something and it’s coming out strangely over the internet, idk. Maybe something is getting lost in “internet translation”. But your view seems myopic. Maybe a more reflective view is combing both of ours into one, to be more accurate to the whole of things.
I think you don’t realize how deeply some people can live their lives while knowing full well what your expressing.
Likely it’s just you projecting how you or those you know of, or are aware of, live their lives. I’m probably doing the same , since I can only speak to my experience.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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VajraWarrior
Stranger


Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 34
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: Can there be a truly selfless act? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26693987 - 05/24/20 11:49 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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The Blind Ass said: If you know the people I know, you would blush in embarrassment for saying what you are saying.
You sound out of touch, or maybe your just expressing only one aspect of something and it’s coming out strangely over the internet, idk. Maybe something is getting lost in “internet translation”. But your view seems myopic. Maybe a more reflective view is combing both of ours into one, to be more accurate to the whole of things.
I think you don’t realize how deeply some people can live their lives while knowing full well what your expressing.
Likely it’s just you projecting how you or those you know of, or are aware of, live their lives. I’m probably doing the same , since I can only speak to my experience.
In my experience I've seen the people you talk about but they don't "see". They think they do, until you point a few things out. Or they opt for a rosy view of things. My parents are such folks, they still believe in the "american dream". My guess is that such folks haven't taken sociology courses otherwise they would see the true price their lives cost, it's largely why I don't eat chocolate anymore. That's why I say that people think they know when they don't, I didn't and I wish I hadn't really.
This is reflective, to recognize that for one thing to live comes at the expense of something else. It's the nature of life in a sense, a circle. Does it need to happen or continue? I don't think that's for anyone to say really but it doesn't change the facts. So far our society isn't built for everyone to be winners,despite whatever saccharine commercial or public service announcement wants to insist is otherwise.
It's quite hard to avoid becoming cynical when one looks at the world we have today. Destruction and exploitation are the norm while joy and friendship punctuate it only briefly and sparsely. To me the people you met are myopic, that's what I find most positive people to be. Gratitude seems more like a flimsy shield to hide behind, and depending on your point of view...insanity.
-------------------- Soooo nothing's real and everything is real? Exactly. UGH! Then what was the point of any of this? -O.K KO
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ShroomerInTheRye
Clit Commander



Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 13,036
Loc: Themyscira
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Re: Can there be a truly selfless act? [Re: VajraWarrior]
#26694181 - 05/25/20 04:29 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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VajraWarrior said: Gratitude seems more like a flimsy shield to hide behind, and depending on your point of view...insanity.
I dunno about that.
I have a friend who posts his dinners on FB. They're usually nothing fancy, but he makes sure to post about his new butter tubs when he buys new butter. He's grateful for something as stupid as a tub of butter. Why? He knows what its like to have not one single thing or penny to your name. That gratitude comes from the bottom of his heart. Over stupid butter.
Having been in a place myself where I've had NOTHING, I am grateful for the small things that other people might view as stupid shit. The food in the fridge, the roof over my head, the car I drive, etc. In turn, that feeling of having nothing has allowed me to help others now that I'm in a better spot. I remember the bitter coldness of having nothing and nobody to turn to for help. I remember feeling slapped in the face every time someone told me I wasn't trying hard enough. Nobody should have to feel the way I did.
If I see you struggling, I won't let you struggle alone. Not because I get some orgasmic feeling of helping someone, but because I understand how it feels to have nothing and get kicked in the mouth repeatedly.
That part of my life could have embittered me. Instead, I allowed it to empower me. If you feel truly grateful in your soul, altruism is not a chore or something to be thought so heavily about...it's just something you do because it's the right goddamn thing.
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<-- Clicky Clicky
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Can there be a truly selfless act? [Re: VajraWarrior] 1
#26694243 - 05/25/20 05:44 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
VajraWarrior said:
Quote:
The Blind Ass said: If you know the people I know, you would blush in embarrassment for saying what you are saying.
You sound out of touch, or maybe your just expressing only one aspect of something and it’s coming out strangely over the internet, idk. Maybe something is getting lost in “internet translation”. But your view seems myopic. Maybe a more reflective view is combing both of ours into one, to be more accurate to the whole of things.
I think you don’t realize how deeply some people can live their lives while knowing full well what your expressing.
Likely it’s just you projecting how you or those you know of, or are aware of, live their lives. I’m probably doing the same , since I can only speak to my experience.
In my experience I've seen the people you talk about but they don't "see". They think they do, until you point a few things out. Or they opt for a rosy view of things. My parents are such folks, they still believe in the "american dream". My guess is that such folks haven't taken sociology courses otherwise they would see the true price their lives cost, it's largely why I don't eat chocolate anymore. That's why I say that people think they know when they don't, I didn't and I wish I hadn't really.
This is reflective, to recognize that for one thing to live comes at the expense of something else. It's the nature of life in a sense, a circle. Does it need to happen or continue? I don't think that's for anyone to say really but it doesn't change the facts. So far our society isn't built for everyone to be winners,despite whatever saccharine commercial or public service announcement wants to insist is otherwise.
It's quite hard to avoid becoming cynical when one looks at the world we have today. Destruction and exploitation are the norm while joy and friendship punctuate it only briefly and sparsely. To me the people you met are myopic, that's what I find most positive people to be. Gratitude seems more like a flimsy shield to hide behind, and depending on your point of view...insanity.
Idk your life situation or age or anything about you, but you have obviously yet to meet the kind of people I talk about. That’s okay too, I promise you they exist, but they most I speak of aren’t on the internet stroking their own ego like you and I. Maybe you recognize that deep down. Maybe you don’t.
Also, To presume that individuals you don’t know anything about are somehow deluding themselves because, as you claim they don’t “see”, is beyond foolish. The truth is, such a type of person is so foreign to you that your unable to fathom it, and so resort to delusions about them to explain such a thing away as false. Maybe you were jaded after being fooled yourself by people you thought were more wholesome, moral, educated, more aware, and more good than they turned out to be - maybe not, but if so, I’m sorry you got hurt, but that doesn’t mean there’s no such thing.
To believe so just because you don’t know of it, is delusive & hubristic.
What’s worse is that I know them very well. They don’t decorate their lives with their ego, many have come from nothing and later, became successful in life - later still they opted for a more wholesome way of life, one most people cannot even conceive of, not to mention live - but many talk like they do know- such as yourself. That is why I can recognize your delusive lies - your selling dog meat masquerading as filet mignon. And I’m not sure you even fully realize it. University can be great, but that is not even close to the same thing as learning how to live appropriately in this world as it is, & embodying ones own understanding and expressing it through ones life. No ones perfect, but somewhere along the way you gave up the real thing for a substitute. I hope you realize that people can tell, even if most don’t point it out to you.
You can’t learn that in school. Maybe one day you will discover more, but not if you believe you already know better. Intellectual understanding is a tiny part of comprehending truth, just apart. It’s easy to be deluded into believing you know something just because you read about it - all without living it truly. Such a tiny mind will never be able to see the full scope & depths of the nature of things, as you so carelessly imply you do.
You have yet to come to some “final” understanding of life that is truly reflective of reality as it fully & really is. No need to pretend you do. I certainly don’t, but at the same time I can tacitly recognize that your full of it, Like a pretender, the unbalanced testimony & views you express of the world & those you know absolutely nothing about is indicative of someone dreaming that they are “woke” - but really just barely awake at the wheel.
Even if this falls on deaf ears It will not matter, as I have spoken only truly of those worthy of my deep respect & gratitude in this world, and that is enough. They will live beyond your wildest dreams, and I have lived parts of my deeply flawed human life with them to know it true beyond all tested doubt.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (05/25/20 05:56 AM)
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lavod
Seal Whisperer


Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5,440
Loc: Over the rainbow
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Re: Can there be a truly selfless act? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26694364 - 05/25/20 07:21 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Suicide is simultaneously the most selfish and most selfless act, the contradiction reified to truth by dissolution into the absolute. 0≠2 becomes 0=2 by removal ov the slanted I from its egoic notion ov centralized equality. It hurts those surrounding one, yes, but the parallax view(yes i watched that movie last night ) is that one gives up all hir earthly attributes held dear in self annihilation. This should'nt encourage suicide ov course, as it cannot separate from its antithesis to altruism, but one can also not deny its selfless nobility from another perspective. Please do'nt kill yourselves and just respect the truth in the (anti)matter!
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VajraWarrior
Stranger


Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 34
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: Can there be a truly selfless act? [Re: lavod]
#26694532 - 05/25/20 09:13 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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lavod said: Suicide is simultaneously the most selfish and most selfless act, the contradiction reified to truth by dissolution into the absolute. 0≠2 becomes 0=2 by removal ov the slanted I from its egoic notion ov centralized equality. It hurts those surrounding one, yes, but the parallax view(yes i watched that movie last night ) is that one gives up all hir earthly attributes held dear in self annihilation. This should'nt encourage suicide ov course, as it cannot separate from its antithesis to altruism, but one can also not deny its selfless nobility from another perspective. Please do'nt kill yourselves and just respect the truth in the (anti)matter!
Well it’s none of those things, it’s just an act. It’s not selfless nobility or a heartless act. But I definitely know that 0 does not equal 2, though from what I gather suicide is pretty egotistical according to most spiritualities. It’s not “giving up earthly attributes” in the way you put it, rather it’s for those who can’t cope anymore.
As for TBA, it’s not egotistical to suggest you know such things about people because from what I gather college is a privilege not many can partake in and when they do they don’t really take courses that broaden their view but rather help them get a job. So when you tell them about all the bad things in the world then they call you crazy or pessimistic no matter what you show them. You say that book learning doesn’t teach you how to survive in the world but I think it teaches you to ask why you should knowing what has happened in the world. I learned more in my sociology courses than I ever did with people, if anything it showed me how little people know or understand. I’m not a pretender, merely one who dares to ask that which people don’t want to hear. I’m willing to bet that if I met the people you spoke of I would shatter them or reveal their hypocrisy. Their lives aren’t really proof of anything other than they made it, but there are exponentially many more who did not and people fail to understand that.
Rye I get that you made it but that is still the privilege of survival. It sounds like the rags to riches story we hear in society and think anyone can because of it, but I know of the thousands more who reached for the very same and didn’t make it or perished in the attempt. YOU made it, but there are many who didn’t so I find your gratitude biased in some regard. Did the millions of others who came from nothing and didn’t make it not want it enough? Were they less deserving than the others who made it? Or was it just random chance in the end?
That’s why I think gratitude is for the privileged and not a valid reflection of life. I think it clouds perspective by omitting some aspects of reality, which is why I don’t practice it. I find it insulting to those who have nothing not because they don’t strive but because they simply cannot rise above due to circumstances beyond their control. Our society was not made to help everyone who needs it, just those who can afford it.
I am aware of the twist of fate that led me to be born in stability, enough food, leisure, all of that, because the die could have rolled the far more likely result of none of that. Poverty, abuse, violence, sickness, it truly is luck to not end up like that.
But we can’t look at those who made it as an example of what life actually is because they aren’t. They are the exception, not the rule. I wonder how grateful people wouldn’t actually be had the not made it out of their holes or could not despite everything. It sounds like my mother who came to this country with nothing and not knowing the language, but I shut down her gratitude speeches by reminding here of the many others who didn’t make it and not because they didn’t want it enough.
-------------------- Soooo nothing's real and everything is real? Exactly. UGH! Then what was the point of any of this? -O.K KO
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ShroomerInTheRye
Clit Commander



Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 13,036
Loc: Themyscira
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Re: Can there be a truly selfless act? [Re: VajraWarrior]
#26694562 - 05/25/20 09:38 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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VajraWarrior said: YOU made it, but there are many who didn’t so I find your gratitude biased in some regard.
That doesn't even make any sense. I made it and help others without a second thought, and that makes me biased.
Edit - Bye 336.
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<-- Clicky Clicky
Edited by ShroomerInTheRye (05/25/20 09:56 AM)
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MightyWhite

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 3,556
Last seen: 1 hour, 30 minutes
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I'll be honest here, the first time I seen OP's name, I thought it said VaginaWarrior. I had to take a second look.
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Re: Can there be a truly selfless act? [Re: MightyWhite] 1
#26694644 - 05/25/20 10:17 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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MightyWhite said: I'll be honest here, the first time I seen OP's name, I thought it said VaginaWarrior. I had to take a second look.
the Vajra in Buddhist ritual is the phallic instrument, so close but kind of inverted
the vagina in the rituals is the Bell
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MightyWhite

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 3,556
Last seen: 1 hour, 30 minutes
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Re: Can there be a truly selfless act? [Re: Tantrika]
#26694649 - 05/25/20 10:20 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Shit, thanks for the heads up
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