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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle


Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 915
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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Quote:
Moses_Davidson said: That's pretty hard core. So how does one cultivate this good character?
Like anything, it's diligence / hard work. When someone is working hard, there is always an idol, lord or many idols or lords. The overseers. In other words, it all depends on who your gods/idols are. For some, their gods are the members of whatever institution that gives them money / security / hope, etc.
When I was 20 my gods were Diogenes, Terence McKenna, Nietzsche, John Frusciante, Alan Watts, Carl Jung, J. Krishnamurti, Tao Te Ching, etc. Those were the lords I've been working for, for approx. 15+ years. I'm 39 years old, so I've been through hell, and I'm still in hell, much of the time. The less these idols cloud the mind, the more one merges harmoniously with direct perception. One of the qualities of the soul is the lack of the possessive pronoun or gender (my, mine). Existence is ours, the shipwreck on the shore of eternity where life plays it's joyful games.
One might benefit from this audio / image:
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
Edited by Cory Duchesne (05/24/20 08:45 PM)
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Re: NEED HELP IDENTIFYING. Are they Psilocybin?? [Re: Jackboy10]
#26693741 - 05/24/20 08:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Jackboy10 said: Hey I found mushrooms in a front lawn, here are some pictures could some one tell me what kind and if they are psilocybin mushrooms. Thankyou

Looks like inky caps. Meh.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle


Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 915
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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Re: What is wealth? [Re: Rahz]
#26693753 - 05/24/20 09:03 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Rahz said: So you don't mind if someone takes all your stuff?
It's already happened, in many ways. Of course it can be excruciatingly painful to want what is not so. It's like anything, exposure to extreme hot or cold temperatures, exposure to harsh weather, living in poverty... there are some uncomfortable sensations and thoughts, and it's best to face these things head on and realize it's not as bad as the imagination makes it out to be. We suffer more in our imagination than we do in reality. There's a story of Ramana Maharshi (Bhagavan).... and one night some thieves broke into the ashram and tried to extort money and goods that were not there. The thieves were calmly informed that there was no money there to take, and it's true, there was no money or anything valuable to take. The thief, who was deluded in his strong conviction, did not believe there was no money. So he started beating Bhagavan's shin with a club, resorting to torture methods to force the sage to cough up the goods. This went on for some time, until the thieves gave up and left. The next day Bhagavan said, "oh well, that's what thieves do, for now on we'll lock up the Ashram at 7pm and make sure no one sneaks in again. * shrug, what can you do? It's like blizzard or a drought, you just have to push through it.
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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But if nobody really owns anything, how can anyone be a thief?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Forrester
aspiring sociopath


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,351
Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours
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Quote:
Cory Duchesne said: it's best to face these things head on and realize it's not as bad as the imagination makes it out to be. We suffer more in our imagination than we do in reality.
So, SO true!!
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle


Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 915
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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Re: What is wealth? [Re: Rahz]
#26694332 - 05/25/20 06:55 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Rahz said: But if nobody really owns anything, how can anyone be a thief?

A thief is a wanna be owner. Would be if he could be. Thieves are people who want things they don't have, and then when they get them, they don't know how to use whatever it is they've tried to own. It's like stealing a nice electric guitar, and then realizing you don't know how to play it, so the thief sells it at a pawn shop. Then the thief owns what he really wants - money. But he doesn't have the money for very long, he soon spends it on drugs or some consumable goods.
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Quote:
Cory Duchesne said:
Quote:
Rahz said: But if nobody really owns anything, how can anyone be a thief?

A thief is a wanna be owner. Would be if he could be. Thieves are people who want things they don't have, and then when they get them, they don't know how to use whatever it is they've tried to own. It's like stealing a nice electric guitar, and then realizing you don't know how to play it, so the thief sells it at a pawn shop. Then the thief owns what he really wants - money. But he doesn't have the money for very long, he soon spends it on drugs or some consumable goods.
Seems like you're sidestepping the question. If a thief is a wanna be owner, then non-thieves don't want to own anything? How do people amass stuff, not wanting to own anything? Are they all thieves? How can a person be a thief if they gain something through honest work? If someone takes something you 'keep around and find useful', that is no problem?
I think the whole non-ownership thing is a bad meme. The reality is that nothing is fundamentally owned by laws of the universe, but that's not what ownership means. Ownership, possession, is a relationship and hopefully we can agree that there are relationships between people and the things they keep or have, use on a regular basis, expect to be where they left them. And when they're not, people tend to be bothered. First the item is not readily available and second it has to be replaced which takes time/money/work.
There is opinion at work, but let's not pretend opinions don't matter. It's actually the whole pretext of ownership. Owning land is an agreement between an individual and a government, which simply means the strong party shares the opinion of ownership with the weak party, and there are laws in place to compel both parties to be fair. The government can't normally just take a person's land without good reason, and if they have good reason they may need to get other opinions to back them up.
Not picking on you in particular, this is a common idea that has come up often over the years.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle


Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 915
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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Re: What is wealth? [Re: Rahz]
#26694712 - 05/25/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seems like you're sidestepping the question. If a thief is a wanna be owner, then non-thieves don't want to own anything?
Instead of saying I am an owner, it's more correct to say that I am a borrower. Everything we think we own will be given (returned, lent, borrowed, or stolen) to someone else eventually. It's a semantics issue, no doubt, and this conversation can regress into inanities fast. There are different terms we can use, "well cared for", "guarded" "dominated" "controlled", "abused" or "stolen" and then there's being "tricked". When the human being gets attached to an object or person, there's also the image of oneself as a non-thief or good person, and one naturally makes a claim to whatever it is that one has become attached to.
I think most of us want some feeling of control, not only over physical things, but we often fool ourselves into thinking we can control private information, our time, our personal secrets, embarrassing stories, etc.
The urge to possess is quite strong and innate in the human being. I've observed babies/toddlers, and it appears there is an innate tendency for the emotions and language to make a claim, saying, "this is mine!" I've seen it with my own eyes and ears, toddlers are not taught to be territorial over people and things. I can also see the anguish and despair when the toddler is separated and pulled away from the things he loves, or yearns to possess, whether is be a toy or a person.
Quote:
How do people amass stuff, not wanting to own anything?
I don't deny that people want to own their stuff, or own their time, control who takes up their time. We naturally build resistances against people who approach us too enthusiastically or aggressively. I have a cousin who once got very competitive and aggressive with me, and I figured he'd cool down and stop trying to dominate me. However, when I continued to invite him over, he surprised me by inviting me out to play guitar, and I kind of had this negative feeling about what was about to happen. Once I got out to the bar with him, he then surprised me by trying to lend my guitar to another band. I told him, "I won't lend my guitar to someone who I never met. Where is this guy" My cousin replied that I couldn't meet the guy who wanted to use my guitar. I then replied, "well, then he's not using it." To this day, I still don't understand why I couldn't meet the guy who wanted to use my guitar. Maybe they were planning to break the guitar on stage? Anyways, 10 minutes later, my cousin says, ok, you can meet the guy first, and then lend him your guitar. So I meet the guy in person, shake his hand, and I say, "if this is something you feel you really need to do, then okay". I was dissapointed to have to share my guitar. My cousin continued to be sketchy for the next month or so, and I eventually left the scene, bewildered and upset.
Quote:
Are they all thieves? How can a person be a thief if they gain something through honest work? If someone takes something you 'keep around and find useful', that is no problem?
I think what you call "a problem" is a consequence of becoming attached and covetous. It's humbling and sometimes infuriating to find someone has taken or made use of something I wanted to possess and control indefinitely.
Quote:
Ownership, possession, is a relationship and hopefully we can agree that there are relationships between people and the things they keep or have, use on a regular basis, expect to be where they left them. And when they're not, people tend to be bothered. First the item is not readily available and second it has to be replaced which takes time/money/work.
When people ask to use my guitar, which happens sometimes, I sometimes am bothered. It depends on how the person goes about it. My cousin tried to be the middle man between me and some other guy. It's possible to put someone uncomfortably on the spot and ask for favors that seem unfair or peculiar (in a negative way).
We are all thieves of each others time, in some way or another.
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
Edited by Cory Duchesne (05/25/20 02:58 PM)
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Well said, and I agree that ownership is tentative and subject to change. While being pissed when something is stolen is understandable (I have a guitar stolen when I was a teenager and it still pops up in my mind occasionally) it's good to be able to let go when that's the only real option. And in light of what we're bound to loose when it's all said and done, loosing material goods that can be replaced is hardly worth crying about. although I'm sure I have some shallow tears left in me.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: What is wealth? [Re: Rahz]
#26695236 - 05/25/20 03:41 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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if a gull steals my sandwich he is a thief. do I own a sandwich? while eating it, do I own a half sandwich? did I steal half a sandwich from myself?
ownership and stealing are not exactly connected.
if you are working at a table, you may not own the work, but if someone takes the papers, or your chair, which you don't own, what have they done?
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle


Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 915
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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Quote:
if you are working at a table, you may not own the work, but if someone takes the papers, or your chair, which you don't own, what have they done?
One sees a distinction between the worker, who necessarily has a wide circle of loyalty, and the thief who necessarily has the bare minimum circle of loyalty. In other words, there appears to be a distinction between a large social circle where one is known for working, waiting and negotiating with many people, and in the case of a thief, a bare minimum circle of loyalty where one has something to hide, a hidden life of secrecy. The thief must necessarily exist in a greater state of secrecy and fear, and also, necessarily, a smaller circle of people who know him. When a thief becomes well known as a thief to the large number he takes from, then whatever power was sustaining him will decrease, and his isolation will increase, and his opportunities will necessarily diminish. The worker on the other hand, provided he produces in accordance to plan and expectations, will find his opportunities increase.
Wealth comes from the ability to work, and working means waiting, negotiating and meeting the expectations of those he works with. With the thief, it's more like, "Surprise! Goodbye!"
The worker says, "I'll catch you later."
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
Edited by Cory Duchesne (05/25/20 08:15 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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we see thief like surprise behavior in the animal kingdom too.
I really get this thief thing.
perhaps we can define wealth in terms of what a thief perceives worth stealing.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
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Money is just a means to an end.. excercising your right to have utility is the goal of any human being..
Often in our culture money is one of the easiest ways to fulfil utility..
So wealth therefore is based on how much (a min max) you can trade for utility and the ways that allow utility to prosper..
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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so power, versus what excites thieves
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle


Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 915
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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Quote:
Often in our culture money is one of the easiest ways to fulfil utility..
So wealth therefore is based on how much (a min max) you can trade for utility and the ways that allow utility to prosper..
That's pretty good. It's easier to say what wealth is not than to say what wealth is. It's easy to break things down so they don't work. It's difficult to set things right.
We can see "the ease" of trading money for some particular consumable, whether tobacco or heroin. It is due to this very ease that one gradually falls into poverty and poor health.
"It is not necessary to isolate the egotist - he accomplishes this for himself. Egotism is not so painful to those who have it as to those who must endure it. Like the leprosy that numbs the nerves before it attacks the adjacent tissues, inordinate self-esteem first befuddles the judgment and then rots out the whole fabric of the mind. Egotism is a curious kind of ailment that afflicts shallow minds. It is most likely to trouble those who least suspect its presence, and advanced cases are usually incurable. ~ Manly P. Hall (Horizon September 1941 p. 20, 21)
Wealth and Health is something quite different from the isolation, poor health and misery that often results from mere trade. Money has often made a man very poor.
Wealth is a quality of relationship and community. There is no wealth without community and personal intimate relations. The egotist has no personal intimate relations. He's isolated and the only relief or release he gets is through spending money on consumable goods. There's no productivity, and if he is productive, there are few who will acknowledge what he has produced, for he often slanders and defames the people who would have liked to work with him, and his products are often unfinished, ignored, not valued, or given away or taken from him without acknowledgement or payment.
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
Edited by Cory Duchesne (05/26/20 08:51 AM)
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle


Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 915
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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"Virtue cannot dwell with wealth either in a city or in a house." - Diogenes of Sinope
Honesty, courage, compassion, generosity, fidelity, integrity, fairness, self-control, and prudence are all examples of virtues. A person who has developed the virtue of generosity is often referred to as a generous person because he or she tends to be generous in all circumstances. (Ethics and Virtue - Markkula Center for Applied Ethics)
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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I haven't met a really rich person that I liked.
of course they couldn't give a damn about that.
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle


Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 915
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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I made a website dedicated to some rich folks. I don't have time for anyone who claims to own wealth yet harasses someone with constant questions and requests and commands and even insults. It's like these people do everything they can to waste your time and ruin your day.
http://www.okpinethen.com/activeLearningTutor/corruption2.php
Diogenes to Alexander: "I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, so that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give."
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I haven't met a really rich person that I liked.
Oh don't be such a snob-- They can't very well help it that they're rich.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle


Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 915
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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Quote:
Moses_Davidson said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I haven't met a really rich person that I liked.
Oh don't be such a snob-- They can't very well help it that they're rich.
I don't have a problem with so called rich folks with lots of money, property and cars - as long as you stay within your boundaries. However, when you wander over to your neighbor who has considerably less, and you've got nothing to offer except for ridiculing and insulting comments or issuing commands, then I hope you're smart enough to realize you deserve whatever comes back to you in return, whether that be insults or a physical assault. There are some ugly sounding rich people who deserve the hostility and antagonism they stir up. You stick your nose in your neighbors business because you think your money buys you security and power over others, then you deserve a good beating.
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
Edited by Cory Duchesne (05/27/20 05:20 AM)
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