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Ombisha
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Straight coir (without vermiculite)
#26691774 - 05/24/20 04:27 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I read that "people are moving towards using straight coir in their tubs". Is it in any way different than regular cvg? What would be some pros and cons? What is the approximate water/coir ratio?
Im out of vermiculite and not sure if I should even order it again.
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A.k.a
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Ombisha]
#26692063 - 05/24/20 08:19 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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It doesn’t matter really ime.
I guess you’d use a little less water without it.
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Sockadin



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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Ombisha] 1
#26692201 - 05/24/20 09:31 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Take dry coir, boil water. Add water till coir is at field capacity. What ever that means... I don't ever measure,just kinda get to know how much water is right.
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Svetaketu
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Ombisha]
#26692308 - 05/24/20 10:12 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Every brick of coir is a little different, so you may have to do some test runs to get to the perfect water content.
I start with 1:5 coir:water so if you have 110g of coir, you'd need 550g of water.
Then just see how close to field capacity it comes out, and adjust accordingly. My current brick comes out perfect at about 110g coir and 525g water.
Edited by Svetaketu (05/24/20 10:18 AM)
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Mycelia



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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Sockadin]
#26692336 - 05/24/20 10:28 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Field capacity" is the amount of moisture a medium can contain without dripping.
If you take a 650 gr coir brick and add 3.25L of boiled water to it, you should get the correct field capacity. That's the ratio recommended by Bod in his cooler tek, and I've tried it about five or six times now and it works.
Recently, I ordered a different kind of coir, so I didn't have a perfect 650 gr brick of coir, and I couldn't measure out the ratio of water properly. So I winged it.
I had too much water the first time, but I hit approximate field capacity by taking a fist full of coir (with very clean hands) and squeezing out the water as hard as I could until it stopped dripping.
It worked relatively well, but it takes a bit longer to make because instead of scooping the coir direct from the cooler to the tub, I have to squeeze each scoop until the water stops dripping.
PS I've been using only coir since I started growing last fall. I've grown over 2 kg of GTs and Mexicans (all cubes), and I've got APEs growing right now and two buckets look just about ready to start harvesting. I've been using a combo of Uncle Ben's tek and Bodhi's monotub easy af tek.
It doesn't have to be a precise science, and I think it's better to be a bit on the wetter side than too dry, because if it's too dry it will take longer to colonize. And you can always leave the top off for a bit and let the excess evaporate.
That is my two cents. Good luck and have a great day!
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verum subsequentis
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Mycelia]
#26692350 - 05/24/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'd say slightly drybis generally better than slightly too wet.
Lots of folks just us coir. Advantage is... You don't have to add verm
Disadvantage is.... Sub can hold less water.
I personally prefer verm but sometimes go without it.
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Mycelia



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If it's too dry, won't it slow down the colonization process to a halt?
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Htaeh
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Mycelia] 1
#26692412 - 05/24/20 10:59 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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With a shoebox I think the way to go is a bit on the dry side and then a heavy misting before setting the lid on and leaving it to colonise. I believe it adds somewhat to the surface conditions giving it more favour for fruiting on top.
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Mycelia



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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Htaeh]
#26692591 - 05/24/20 12:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Htaeh said: With a shoebox I think the way to go is a bit on the dry side and then a heavy misting before setting the lid on and leaving it to colonise. I believe it adds somewhat to the surface conditions giving it more favour for fruiting on top.
Oh good, I've been doing that when my coir feels a bit dry anyways.
On thing that I noticed that was an issue when I made moister coir is that too much condensation accumulates on the sides and then drips down and creates pools. I have had to pour or blot out the excess moisture a couple of times.
Drier coir is easier to work with and you don't have to touch it as much to squeeze out the water, which is probably better.
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F-Bomb
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Mycelia]
#26692611 - 05/24/20 12:52 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm using straight coir per bod's bucket Tek and I get canopies. I float for harvest and saw them off.
I'll occasionally get pools around the edges but they usually get absorbed as time goes on. Using sterilite gasket boxes with flipped lids I'll get drying around the edges if I'm not careful.
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Machiavelliavore
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Ombisha]
#26692619 - 05/24/20 12:56 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think the argument for verm is that it may provide a slightly fluffier texture, which might lead to faster colonization and/or better aeration. Essentially both perform the same function of storing water, as you can use straight coir or straight verm (see rez effect.)
IMO cubes have no problem taring through straight coir, verm is messy, and in my area, more expensive, so I omit it.
Also keep in mind that different brands of coir and vermiculite have their own field capacities. The first coir I got was pet store 625g blocks, and that took about 4qt if I recall. Then I switched to 5lbs blocks of plantation soil and that shit takes at least 4.5qt for 625g. If you pressure cook the coir, it will take even more. I would say 4qt for 625g is a good starting point, as you bring it up from there just record how much you added so you can 1-shot it next time.
Also keep in mind that the weight measurement on those 625g petstore sized bricks is very inconsistent, I've seen them from 500-750g, which is gonna change the required water significantly.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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Sockadin



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Wait are people hand squeezing each hand full of coir before mixing? That just seems like alot of squeezing. No, if your coir is to wet it is because you followed a TEK. But there is no reason to hand squeeze the water out of each handful. I think that was a measurement to check for hydration that RR used, not a technique to be administered during mixing spawn.
If bods tek called for hand squeezing every hand full of coir, I missed that.
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F-Bomb
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Agreed on different brands requiring different amounts of water, but it's minimal IMO. Break your bricks up and weigh out the amount of coir you want to use every time. I'm typically buying 20 pound blocks and using 800g with 4L boiling water. I use a wood chisel to break off slabs of coir and weigh them on a kitchen scale. It goes into a 5gal bucket stuffed inside a $5 Ozark trail softside bag cooler, then I snap a lid on and lay another thermal bag over the top. It sits for 24-30 hours before using and usually it's still warm.
No squeezing of any kind, I just mix it well by hand before using it.
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Svetaketu
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Sockadin]
#26692681 - 05/24/20 01:21 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sockadin said: Wait are people hand squeezing each hand full of coir before mixing? That just seems like alot of squeezing. No, if your coir is to wet it is because you followed a TEK. But there is no reason to hand squeeze the water out of each handful. I think that was a measurement to check for hydration that RR used, not a technique to be administered during mixing spawn.
If bods tek called for hand squeezing every hand full of coir, I missed that.
No, I think they meant like if you accidentally added too much water, and your batch of coir is over-hydrated, you can squeeze out the extra water to get it to field capacity, tedious as it may be.
Its definitely not something you plan to do on purpose, even a small amount like a shoebox is a pain to squeeze out.
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Sockadin



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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Svetaketu] 3
#26692690 - 05/24/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Just add vermiculite..
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Svetaketu
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Sockadin] 1
#26692713 - 05/24/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well maybe they don't have vermiculite ..
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Sockadin



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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Svetaketu] 1
#26692715 - 05/24/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I guess squeezing would be the next best thing.
Maybe grind up some coir and add as needed. Dry coir.
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Mycelia



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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Svetaketu]
#26692730 - 05/24/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Svetaketu said:
Quote:
Sockadin said: Wait are people hand squeezing each hand full of coir before mixing? That just seems like alot of squeezing. No, if your coir is to wet it is because you followed a TEK. But there is no reason to hand squeeze the water out of each handful. I think that was a measurement to check for hydration that RR used, not a technique to be administered during mixing spawn.
If bods tek called for hand squeezing every hand full of coir, I missed that.
No, I think they meant like if you accidentally added too much water, and your batch of coir is over-hydrated, you can squeeze out the extra water to get it to field capacity, tedious as it may be.
Its definitely not something you plan to do on purpose, even a small amount like a shoebox is a pain to squeeze out.
Yes this is what I meant, ie if you added too much water by accident then you can squeeze it out, though it is a PITA.
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Mycelia



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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Svetaketu]
#26692731 - 05/24/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Svetaketu said: Well maybe they don't have vermiculite .. 
Then you have to pasteurize it, no?
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Svetaketu
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Mycelia] 1
#26692750 - 05/24/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sockadin said: I guess squeezing would be the next best thing.
Maybe grind up some coir and add as needed. Dry coir.
Yeah, that would probably work too. You'd have to grind it pretty fine to avoid dry chunks though.
Either way, it is definitely a pain if you make it too wet. I prefer making it on the dry side, since it's easy to add water with a spray bottle.
Quote:
Mycelia said:
Quote:
Svetaketu said: Well maybe they don't have vermiculite .. 
Then you have to pasteurize it, no?
No, it should be fine. Both coir and verm don't have enough nutrients or microbes to warrant pasteurization. Some folks even hydrate their coir with cold water.
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Hans Wermhat
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Svetaketu]
#26692769 - 05/24/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Coir is dirt cheap and verm is relatively expensive. seriously, what's up with the price of verm? seems to keep going up. I save verm for casing layer or bulk sub if I overhydrate it before pasteurizing but otherwise for cubes straight coir is a solid choice
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Machiavelliavore
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Hans Wermhat]
#26693044 - 05/24/20 04:26 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hans Wermhat said: Coir is dirt cheap and verm is relatively expensive. seriously, what's up with the price of verm? seems to keep going up. I save verm for casing layer or bulk sub if I overhydrate it before pasteurizing but otherwise for cubes straight coir is a solid choice
I remember some dude on here said he got it from some friend at like a bulk dirt industrial type place for dirt cheap, but as far as home depot type pricing goes, it's definitely not worth it.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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A.k.a
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Idk where you guys are but I got enough verm to last 20 years for a few bucks.
I think like 3 cubic feet for 20 dollars.
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Sockadin



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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: A.k.a]
#26693143 - 05/24/20 05:08 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think Vermiculite will increase colonization times because of it's ability to hold more moisture. I'm just speculating and have no evidence to support this idea. But could be something Primal can test! Thank being said I have seen Primal on in a month or so.
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Mycelia



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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Sockadin]
#26693939 - 05/24/20 11:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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They just turned off the heat in my apt, and because it was extremely hot and dry in here, my tubs would dry out quite quickly if I use the large, modified tubs I started with. I would have to mist them quite a bit, and I ended up taping over the holes because they would have dried out the entire cake had I left them open. Therefore, thought I could get away with using unmodified bins in my apartment, so I bought some smaller ones and used them right away for the APEs that I had lots of spawn for, which I wanted to grow next.
When making the coir for these ones, I made it a bit more on the wetter side, squeezing the water out in my fist, so in addition to the bins getting less PAE--and with it also being cooler and less dry over the past three days since they've turn off the heat--the first batch of Apes that are coming up are incredibly squishy and moist. I just harvested about an hour ago, and I couldn't believe how different they were to the touch than my GT grows.
I will definitely let the rest of the coir I have in my cooler dry out a bit, and I will be using drier coir over the next months.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Mycelia]
#26693976 - 05/24/20 11:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's straight coir for me. I started with verm initially, and have used it again a few times here and there, but I don't see any significant benefit. Perhaps I just haven't been able to maximize the potential benefits of verm, but I'm quite happy without it and I'm obviously not alone.
That said, it was INSANELY cheap when I bought it a couple years ago at the Rural King in my area when I was living in SW Virginia. Like literally a dollar and change for an 8 quart bag. I was thinking it must have been a mistake or something because I had read about how expensive it was for so many people
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TedsDead


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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: A.k.a]
#26694030 - 05/25/20 01:10 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: Idk where you guys are but I got enough verm to last 20 years for a few bucks.
I think like 3 cubic feet for 20 dollars.

3 cubic feet... 20 yrs... do you even grow shrooms sorry, thats still a good deal... half of what I usually have to pay fer one of those bags
dont forget about the BE... verm has a high BE
Quote:
Sockadin said: I think Vermiculite will increase colonization times because of it's ability to hold more moisture. I'm just speculating and have no evidence to support this idea. But could be something Primal can test! Thank being said I have seen Primal on in a month or so.
it allows the sub to hold more moisture without compromising consistency
I kinda wanna try a verm only tub now
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Edited by TedsDead (05/25/20 01:17 AM)
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Tweeq
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Quote:
Machiavelliavore said:
Quote:
Hans Wermhat said: Coir is dirt cheap and verm is relatively expensive. seriously, what's up with the price of verm? seems to keep going up. I save verm for casing layer or bulk sub if I overhydrate it before pasteurizing but otherwise for cubes straight coir is a solid choice
I remember some dude on here said he got it from some friend at like a bulk dirt industrial type place for dirt cheap, but as far as home depot type pricing goes, it's definitely not worth it.
Try a contractor. Verm is used a insulation in walls / chimneys and in big bags it's dirt cheap. Like AKA we got 100 liters for like 20,- too. The little bags in garden shops etc are crazy expensive
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A.k.a
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Tweeq]
#26694384 - 05/25/20 07:39 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Lol ok maybe not for the guys that run 40 monos.
I also use way less than most people I should’ve added. I usually just grab a couple handfuls per brick when I use it.
Mostly I have it for mixing casings. Imo so far that’s the best use for it.
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Edited by A.k.a (05/25/20 07:44 AM)
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verum subsequentis
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Re: Straight coir (without vermiculite) [Re: Mycelia]
#26694563 - 05/25/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelia said: If it's too dry, won't it slow down the colonization process to a halt?
If it's too dry, yes. That's why I said slightly drier is better than too wet.
It's much easier to add verm untill you reach a nice texture than it is to hand squeeze a shitload of coir.
Verm doesn't need pasteurized.
Alternatively, if a batch is made and is too wet, you can just make another batch with less water and then mix the two.
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The Fresh Prints
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My only gripe with verm is how much space it takes up. I think I have the same 3 cubic foot bag and its the size of a small child lol. Maybe mine is bigger idk. I think it was 36 bucks on amazon.
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Edited by The Fresh Prints (05/25/20 10:34 AM)
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